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2 episodes · 41 quoted claims
Chris Voss said the FBI played loud music and sounds at the Waco compound at night, a tactic hostage negotiators opposed but were overruled on.
“among the many stupid things that the FBI did at Waco, then late at night, they tried that in the Waco compound too.”
Chris Voss said a young man named Jeff Schelling was seized by the Abu Sayyaf group in the Philippines and eventually walked away after negotiators stalled the kidnappers.
“young man named Jeff Schelling was grabbed by terrorist group, uh, Abu Sayyaf, and um, he ended up walking away.”
Chris Voss said that in a later Philippine hostage case, held by a different Abu Sayyaf faction, two of the three remaining hostages were killed by friendly fire thirteen months on.
“by a different faction of the terrorist group, thirteen months later, ends up in, um, two of the three remaining hostages shot and killed by friendly fire”
Chris Voss said a hostage held by the Abu Sayyaf was beheaded on a Philippine national holiday, and blamed poor coordination among the authorities on his own side.
“Geronimo Saber ended up getting his head cut off with the because of all the warring factions on our side of the table”
Chris Voss said that around 2004 Al Qaeda reliably killed hostages when its deadlines passed, so negotiators had to treat those deadlines as real.
“And Al Qaeda in 2004's timeframe was very clear about killing people on deadline, and we had to recognize that.”
In kidnapping negotiations, a 'double dip' is when captors take a ransom payment and then say it was only a down payment and demand more, according to Chris Voss.
“you always got to worry about what we used to refer to as a double dip.”
Chris Voss said that negotiations end when the other side feels it has gotten everything it could, not when it actually has, so a negotiator's job is to help them feel that sooner.
“the other side is gonna give in when they feel like they've gotten everything they can”
Chris Voss said that in March 2003 Dwight Watson drove a tractor into Washington, DC and claimed to have four bombs, and that Watson was bluffing.
“Guy named Dwight Watson rolled a tractor into the middle of DC. and claimed he had four bombs”
Chris Voss credited negotiator Giandomenico Picco with getting the Western hostages out of Beirut in the mid-1980s and with writing the book 'Man Without a Gun'.
“Got all the, uh, Western hostages out of Beirut in the mid 80s. Wrote a book called Man Without a Gun.”
Chris Voss said that after talking to kidnappers for long enough, negotiators learn what a person sounds like when telling the truth, because people tend to tell the truth the same way each time.
“People lie 20 ways, they tell the truth one way. So we've been coaching in negotiations with the kidnappers long enough”
Chris Voss advises firing someone on a Monday rather than a Friday so they have a work week to start recovering instead of a weekend of misery.
“never fire somebody on a Friday, fire them on a Monday”
Chris Voss said a British negotiator kept the gunmen on the phone during the Princess Gate siege in London while the SAS stormed the building.
“called the Princess Gate siege. Where, um, a a legendary British hostage negotiator, David Van Ness, had the bad guys on the phone while the SAS was hitting, hitting the building.”
Chris Voss said that in the Good Guys electronics store siege in Sacramento, the hostage-takers putting bags over hostages' heads signaled that executions were imminent and an assault was needed.
“They knew that they were getting ready to execute the hostages because they put bags over their heads.”
Chris Voss cited psychologist Daniel Goleman as distinguishing cognitive empathy, emotional empathy and empathic concern.
“Goleman says there's cognitive empathy, me just recognizing what your emotions are coming from, there's emotional empathy, me feeling your emotions, and there's empathic concern, me wanting to do something about your distress.”
Chris Voss said that writer Steven Kotler describes empathy as the transmission of information and compassion as the reaction to it.
“Steven would say empathy is about the transmission of information, compassion is the reaction to the transmission.”
Chris Voss said the Harvard definition of empathy in negotiation meant showing understanding of the other side's perspective, not liking them.
“the Harvard definition, um, was empathy was not liking the other side, it was just demonstrating an understanding of their perspective.”
Chris Voss estimated, in layman's terms, that the human survival brain is roughly 75 percent negative in its reactions.
“the survival brain is largely negative. Ballpark, I would say 75 negative.”
Chris Voss recalled reading, in the book The Upward Spiral, about an experiment where people shown a negative picture felt less of the emotion once they named it.
“shown a picture that induced a negative emotion in their head, and then they asked the people to simply call out what the emotion was.”
Chris Voss described Fireside as a new subscription platform that works like an interactive podcast with weekly group coaching, founded by Fallon Fathomy and Mark Cuban.
“a brand new social media platform. Um, it's essentially an interactive podcast, it's a subscription service founded by Fallon Fathomy and Mark Cuban.”
Chris Voss cited the rough 7-38-55 rule, which splits communication into words, delivery and body language, and called it unscientific but a useful rule of thumb.
“There's a ratio out there that very unscientific. 738, 557 words, 38 delivery, 55 body language.”
Chris Voss says his entrepreneur father had him and his sister tear down the family's old garage with crowbars when he was about eleven.
“he handed me and my thirteen-year-old sister crowbars and said, Go out and tear down the old garage.”
Chris Voss volunteered on a suicide hotline for three years, later joining its board and teaching there.
“I actually volunteered there for a total of three years, and then I got involved in the board and the funding and the operation, and I taught there too”
Voss learned the 'drama triangle' of victim, protector and persecutor on the hotline, where callers posing as victims lure helpers into giving advice and then attack it.
“the victim, uh, the protector, and the persecutor, and someone who comes on a hotline really portraying themselves as a victim.”
Voss came across Jim Camp's book Start with No, which advocated helping the counterpart discover the best deal, echoing the hotline's guided discovery.
“I run across Jim Camp's book Start with No, and he talked about effectiveness in business negotiation, helping your counterpart discover the best answer.”
Daniel Kahneman won the economics Nobel Prize in 2002 for work on prospect theory, which holds that losses loom larger than equivalent gains.
“Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Prize in 2002 behavioral, um, uh, prospect theory, uh, economic Nobel Prize on human behavior, which is loss looms larger than gain.”
Amos Tversky had died before the Nobel was awarded, so he did not share it with Daniel Kahneman.
“Amos Tversky Taversky had died by the time they awarded the Nobel, uh, prize, which is why he didn't get it along with Kahneman”
Voss says the Chase Manhattan bank robbery in Brooklyn was the first bank robbery with hostages in New York City in over twenty years.
“it was a bank robbery with hostages in New York City, and there hadn't been a bank robbery with hostages in New York City for over twenty years.”
NYPD commander Hugh McGowan integrated NYPD and FBI negotiators into one team during the Brooklyn bank siege.
“Their commander, Hugh McGowan, super sharp guy, knew what he was doing. He integrated the team.”
Investigators found that the owner of a van outside the bank ran a cash courier business serving the bank and could not be located, and he was later voice-identified as the lead robber.
“this guy is running a cash courier business that services this bank, and they can't find this guy, he is nowhere to be found.”
A mirror by Voss caused the lead robber to reveal a getaway driver, which later helped convict the driver.
“This ends up convicting his getaway driver, who had gotten away, and we didn't even know there was a third guy.”
Voss says hostage negotiators succeed about 93% of the time.
“So the other thing, too, is hostage negotiators are successful 93% of the time, which is one of the things that I learned in the business, which means 7% of the time, they just ain't coming out.”
Voss says hostage takers often end up in later sieges, so negotiators deal with the same people again and honesty matters.
“the crazy thing is hostage negotiators have repeat customers. If I get you out alive, the chances of, um, you straightening out your life are not great”
Voss says he interviewed Mark Cuban, who agreed that hearing out a counterpart on the first deal speeds up later deals.
“I did an interview with Mark Cuban six or seven months ago, and I talked about listening.”
Voss says humans fall into three natural types, which he describes as assertive, analytical and friendly, with each type tending to use a different voice.
“three natural types, um, in humans, fight, flight, or make friends”
Voss cites brain-imaging experiments in which people shown upsetting photos and asked to label their feelings showed reduced activity in the relevant brain area.
“They put people in fMRIs, functional magnetic resonance imaging devices, where they can watch the brain light up.”
Voss says an epiphany, which he links to a person saying 'that's right', releases oxytocin, a bonding chemical.
“And among the neurochemicals that you get a hit of in an epiphany is oxytocin, which is the bonding drug.”
Guillermo Sabero was murdered by the Abu Sayyaf about twenty-one days into the Burnham-Sabero hostage case in the Philippines.
“Guillermo Sabero was murdered, uh, by by the Abu Sayyaf, about twenty one days into that case.”
Voss says two of the three remaining hostages were killed by friendly fire in a botched Philippine rescue attempt.
“the two of the three remaining hostages were killed in a botched rescue attempt, and they were shot by friendly fire.”
Voss says Philippine Scout Rangers stumbled onto the Abu Sayyaf camp without knowing hostages were there and opened fire.
“Philippine Scout Rangers inadvertently stumbled over the Abu Sayyaf encampment, um, didn't realize it was one and had hostages, and it just opened fire.”
Martin Burnham and Filipino hostage Deborah Yap were killed in the rescue attempt, and Voss got the call hours later.
“And it was just a few hours after Martin Burnham had been killed and Deborah Yap, the Filipino hostage, had been killed.”