# Former First Lady (Michelle Obama): This Is A Scam! People Were Running From Us Because We Were Black! I Was Bitter About The Racism I Received!

- **Show:** The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
- **Published:** 1 May 2025
- **Source:** https://pdst.fm/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/mgln.ai/e/1390/claritaspod.com/measure/p.podderapp.com/2544644999/mgln.ai/e/1651/episode.flightcast.com/bu3pn3tdmikgob8zc62vrjjq.mp3
- **Transcript:** https://podcasts.opennash.com/shows/diary-of-a-ceo/former-first-lady-michelle-obama-this-is-a-scam-people-were-running-from-us-beca-57b3eb/
- **Provider:** OpenNash Podcasts (machine-generated)

## In brief

Michelle Obama and her brother Craig Robinson argue that a childhood built on unconditional love, empathy and a refusal to let outsiders define you gave them the strength to face racism, scrutiny and the White House. Michelle says she spent years box-checking, then learned to ask what brings her joy, and that this shapes how she handles marriage, motherhood and power.

The conversation moves from a cramped Chicago bungalow to Princeton, a corporate law career and Barack's arrival, then to fertility struggles, the White House, and their mother's death. The tension is between doing what is expected and choosing for yourself. Michelle says that tension ends with her decision to skip Trump's inauguration, and with her view that boundaries and honest marital negotiation matter.

## Key insights

1. **Unconditional love and empathy armed them against racism** Craig and Michelle say their parents taught them to put themselves in other people's shoes and to ignore opinions from outside the family table. Michelle says this let them absorb prejudice without becoming bitter.
2. **Michelle calls elite-school doubt a scam** After straight A's at Princeton, Michelle concluded that wealth, legacy and athletic preferences also decide who gets in. She says the message that some students do not belong is meant to unsettle them.
3. **Box-checking careers can hide a lack of purpose** Michelle took a top law job paying more than her parents combined, then lost her father and a close friend within a year. Those losses pushed her to journal about what brought her joy and move toward mentoring.
4. **Marriage strain peaks when partners stop negotiating** Michelle says independent careers work until children arrive, when unspoken sacrifices breed resentment. She adds that fertility treatment and miscarriage put heavy physical and emotional load on women and can become a first pressure point.
5. **The White House was not built for families** Michelle says she did not know what to negotiate before Barack ran. She had to fight for things like consistent Secret Service detail leaders for her young daughters, because the West Wing revolved around the president.

## Questions this episode answers

### Why did Michelle Obama turn Barack down at first?

She was assigned as his mentor at their law firm and thought dating a fellow Black Harvard associate would be expected and tacky. After a month or two of his persuasion, a long first date at the Art Institute changed her mind.

### What does Michelle Obama mean when she says elite-school doubt is a scam?

She means the message that you do not belong or that others deserve a seat more than you is false. At Princeton she saw that wealth, legacy and athletics also shape admissions, which freed her from worrying about it.

### What is white flight, as explained in this episode?

Michelle describes it as white families selling their homes en masse when Black families moved into a mostly white neighborhood, fearing falling property values. She saw her own South Shore neighborhood change this way.

### Why does Michelle say fertility and early parenthood strain marriages?

She says nobody tells women about the biological clock, that IVF puts most of the physical burden on the woman, and that miscarriage is rarely discussed. When children arrive, uneven sacrifices that were never discussed can cause resentment.

### Why did Michelle Obama skip Trump's inauguration?

She says she had spent her life doing the right thing and setting an example, and decided to choose for herself. She said she had done enough of that and that this was the time to start putting her own peace first.

## Facts

- **Michelle Obama** [0:04:49]: "It was a single family home, a bungalow on the south side of Chicago, and our aunt Robbie was married to, uh, her husband, Terry, and they owned the home."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:05:29]: "Because my father was a city worker, he was a working class guy, didn't have a college education."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:08:34]: "even though he had multiple sclerosis and walked with, uh, a assistance, he had a cane when we were younger"
- **Michelle Obama** [0:12:20]: "Got the results and the results proved that I could skip 2nd grade and it was a lifesaver for me."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:17:44]: "When black people sort of start making their way up socioeconomically and can buy homes or rent homes in neighborhoods that are predominantly white."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:26:06]: "there's all kinds of affirmative action that I that never talk about. You know, there's wealth and legacy, uh, there there's athletic, uh, affirmative action."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:29:20]: "So at that age, as I started as a 1st year associate, I was making more than my parents made combined"
- **Michelle Obama** [0:31:05]: "one of my best friends from from college, uh, Suzanne, um, died of, uh, lymphoma, and it was sudden. She was diagnosed in December and she died in May."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:38:29]: "I was a 1st year associate, so they tried to pair 1st years, sort of w with with new summer associates."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:40:56]: "And we went to the Art Institute, where he showed me his suave, you know, view of art. And we had lunch at the museum."
- **Steven Bartlett** [0:45:10]: "I was so in awe of her clarity of purpose, determination and vulnerability that I offered her a job on the spot."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:45:38]: "And he was the 1st Black student to be elected UM president of the Harvard Law Review."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:45:38]: "so he got a book contract to write a story, Dreams from my father, um, which I thought was who writes a book at your age"
- **Michelle Obama** [0:46:52]: "we were cobbling together our payments for our student loans at the time, which were more than our mortgage"
- **Michelle Obama** [0:55:20]: "she reminded us that women we are born with a finite set of eggs and we don't get any more, and every month we're losing them."
- **Michelle Obama** [0:56:52]: "now it's time for IVF, um, if you can afford it, which it wasn't covered by insurance at the time."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:03:17]: "you're paying for every food, every bit of food that you eat, you, you know, y, you're not paying for housing and the staff in it, but everything, even travel."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:03:51]: "If you're not traveling with the president, if your kids are coming on a bright star, which is the first lady's plane, we had to play pay for their travel to be on the plane."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:08:09]: "I told him that he definitely had to quit smoking because he was still toying with smoking."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:08:40]: "But then he was chosen to give the speech at the Democratic National Convention and he just blew up."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:11:35]: "So they started school in second grade and fifth grade in armed cars with primarily men with guns going into a new school, um, strangers that they did not know."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:12:11]: "It was important for me that we find uh, two detail leaders that stayed with the girls for most of their time until they became teenagers."
- **Craig Robinson** [1:14:42]: "because I had been a basketball coach at a big conference. I always had to tell them, don't worry about what people say in the newspaper."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:21:52]: "Everyone came to her door and sat in her room and sucked up her wisdom."
- **Steven Bartlett** [1:23:05]: "How did that loss impact the family? It's 2024, so it's fairly recent."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:25:25]: "in my opinion, our podcast is sort of that offering back."
- **Michelle Obama** [1:27:44]: "I think I just told myself, I think I've done enough of that, and if I haven't, then I never will."

## Transcript

**[0:00:00] Steven Bartlett:** This episode is sponsored by Asana. Let me, uh, admit something to you. I'm a little bit messy. I have got ADHD and sometimes I forget things. I'll put something in Google Drive, I'll put something on my desktop, it's all over the shop. And I can't imagine how much that is costing me as an entrepreneur or as a creative. I never thought of this as a project management problem, I just thought of it as a me problem.

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**[0:01:10] Steven Bartlett:** Try it at Asana. Com ASANA Com. As a founder, building a business when I was in my early 20s, I think I always had a deep sense of imposter syndrome. Because there was something that I wasn't good at, and that thing was finances, finance. And understanding your financial position as a small business is the great enabler of all of your dreams. I was running from it until I discovered a platform called zero. zero is an accounting and financial management platform specifically for small businesses, and it brings accounting, payments, payroll and analytics all into one place.

**[0:01:44] Steven Bartlett:** Even for people that don't love doing finances, zero wants to do the financial work for you. But its core ambition is to go beyond keeping the financial record, because zero wants to help you understand what's happening in your business. And increasingly, and this is maybe the most important thing, is help you make decisions. Finally, we have a partner who can enable us in a simple way for those people that are both left brain or right brain and enable our dreams.

**[0:02:09] Steven Bartlett:** You can learn more about zero by going to zero. com. Thank you to zero, thank you for sponsoring this podcast, but also thank you for helping me to scale my business. As somebody that, quite frankly, has never loved finances that much,

**[0:02:20] Michelle Obama:** People in power who haven't understood their why can lead us down some dark tunnels. We are in a really tough time right now.

**[0:02:28] Steven Bartlett:** the one and only Michelle Obama, The former 1st lady

**[0:02:32] Speaker 6:** And her brother, Craig Robinson, are sharing their rare perspectives into a world very few ever get to see.

**[0:02:39] Michelle Obama:** I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood and we were taught foundational values so that we could function in our society. But growing up, I was just checking boxes. And then I met Barack Obama. He showed up in my life as the opposite of a box checker.

**[0:02:56] Steven Bartlett:** you rejected him at 1st, right?

**[0:02:58] Michelle Obama:** Yeah, I was even trying to introduce him to some of my friends. He said. Well, why don't we go out?

**[0:03:03] Steven Bartlett:** And what did you think of it?

**[0:03:04] Craig Robinson:** Honestly, I was like, he may last two months. I remember mom saying, Well, at least he's tall.

**[0:03:11] Michelle Obama:** But the next thing, you know, we were on our way to building our lives together. And my initial reaction was, Don't do this. There would be death threats. How do you raise kids in the White House? How would we afford it?

**[0:03:25] Steven Bartlett:** Did you ask for any promises if he were to win?

**[0:03:28] Michelle Obama:** I didn't know what that journey was gonna be and what I would need to negotiate for myself. And if I had known what I know now, I should have said,

**[0:03:39] Steven Bartlett:** Michelle? I was watching the coverage of your decision to not go to Trump's inauguration. What was the thinking behind that?

**[0:03:45] Michelle Obama:** the truth was, is that

**[0:03:49] Steven Bartlett:** I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button. Wherever you're listening to this, I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button. I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make this show better and better, and better and better.

**[0:04:11] Steven Bartlett:** I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see, and continue to doing this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button. Wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time.

**[0:04:31] Steven Bartlett:** Michelle, Craig, What do I need to know about your earliest context to understand the adults? And I use that word intentionally, because I know that's what your, your parents were intent on raising, the adults that are in front of me today. Hm,

**[0:04:49] Michelle Obama:** it starts at 7436. South Euclid, you know, the the the hub of it all. That was the the home that we grew up in on the south side of Chicago, and it was a teeny tiny house. Uh, we lived, uh, above our aunt Robbie. It was a single family home, a bungalow on the south side of Chicago, and our aunt Robbie was married to, uh, her husband, Terry, and they owned the home. Uh, and they had a little bitty f, almost o one bedroom, two bedroom apartment over the home, so it was a two family home.

**[0:05:29] Michelle Obama:** We were surrounded by extended family, that community of people that you. I. I probably cause people didn't have a lot of resources, people lived with each other, you know, you shared spaces, you lived next to one another. And we lived with our great aunt because it helped our parents save some money and get us in a better neighborhood. Because my father was a city worker, he was a working class guy, didn't have a college education. And working for the city was a really stable job because it gave you benefits and some stability.

**[0:06:02] Michelle Obama:** And my mom wanted to stay home, uh, and and raise kids. So in order to save that kind of money, we banded together and lived with our aunt Robbie. And all of the adventures and the lessons learned. When I think about my foundational values, that house, really, and all the experiences and conversations. The beginning of my kitchen table happened on 74th and Euclid, and I, I talk about it because you think it was a palace, but this was a little home.

**[0:06:35] Michelle Obama:** We shared a bedroom most of our lives because there wa just wasn't room for us to each have our own room, and we shared the space. One bathroom, there was no dining room, there was just a kitchen.

**[0:06:47] Craig Robinson:** And the the way it was set up, how it was supposed to be used. It was a one bedroom apartment and the living room was the room that we shared as a bedroom. And the one bedroom it had was where my mom and dad lived, and the whole thing could have been 700 sq. ft.

**[0:07:08] Steven Bartlett:** You talked about foundational values, what were those foundational values that you learned in that location, and how did your parents teach you those foundational values? And I ask that with great curiosity, because as I read through both of your books, there are moments in your career where as adults in your late 20s, where those values show up so clearly. Over and over and over again. And I'm, I was, as I was reading, I was thinking, Gosh, what did their parents do to orientate them in such a clear way?

**[0:07:38] Steven Bartlett:** Where both at key moments in both of your careers, you make decisions not to get a pay rise or not to go for the thing that is higher status. And to do something else, either something that's aligned with your passions and hobbies, or something that's in service of others. So w What were those values, and how did your parents instill those in you?

**[0:07:58] Michelle Obama:** I I think our parents modeled it. I mean, if I were to think of one, uh, one word that would describe my father, he was just a decent man, decent, honest, hardworking and loyal, trustworthy. I mean, these were the kind of things that we talked about. We, we didn't have material stuff. He couldn't provide that, but he provided a set of lessons about what it meant to be a good friend. Um, he was the elder in his family, uh, the oldest of what five, and my mom was the middle child.

**[0:08:34] Michelle Obama:** And, uh, he, he took care of everyone. Um, even though he had multiple sclerosis and walked with, uh, a assistance, he had a cane when we were younger, I never knew my father to walk without the assistance of a cane. And MS was a progressive disease, so over the course of his life, he just got weaker and weaker and weaker. But he was the strongest person in our orbit with everyone

**[0:09:02] Steven Bartlett:** never took a sick day.

**[0:09:03] Michelle Obama:** never took a sick day. He was the father that fathered all the other kids in the neighborhood, you know? So when Craig was playing basketball, he was the person that was at most of the practices, if he could be, if his shift allowed. He was the dad in the neighborhood where a lot of kids didn't have those kind of role models. Um, and even though we didn't have a lot, y, you know, there was n. There was never a time when my father wasn't gonna help somebody.

**[0:09:34] Michelle Obama:** So, uh, you know, I guess those values where you, you, you take care of people, you know, money doesn't really matter. That's not the thing that makes you great, it's how you show up in the world, it's your word, it's, um, you know how you treat other people.

**[0:09:50] Craig Robinson:** To Misha's point. He was the guy who was giving kids rides to practice and to games because their parents couldn't go. And he would be sharing stories, sharing his values. It was just embedded in his being to pass on knowledge that he had. And and with regard to my mom, you know, my mom, I think, is where I, at least where I get my philanthropic gene from. Not with money, cause we didn't have any, but with our time and with our resource, whatever resources we had.

**[0:10:26] Craig Robinson:** What was behind all of us was unconditional love,

**[0:10:32] Steven Bartlett:** It's a tool in the toolbox that you sometimes don't even realize is there if you're privileged enough to. Because it's that tectonic plate that sits underneath you, that you never can really see. But gives you a certain sense of, I guess, risk. And and, uh, go get it.

**[0:10:46] Michelle Obama:** well, and and knowing that, you know, it's not just unconditional love. But our parents believed us, they valued our voices, I mean, they really liked to hear us talk. They. They encouraged us to think out loud and to problem solve, and to come to us with their problems, but not be the ones that we're gonna solve it. And I, I. This came in very handy when you're a kid in public school, because, you know, in public school, south side of Chicago, teaching was kind of uneven.

**[0:11:19] Michelle Obama:** You know, one year you'd get a teacher that cared and and invested in the kids, another grade you'd have a teacher that didn't care. And I remember distinctly I started 2nd grade and I went to a classroom that was completely chaotic. The teacher clearly didn't wanna be there, and I knew this in 2nd grade and there was no order. We didn't have homework, we weren't doing regular lessons, and I knew that something was wrong. And I would come home at lunch and I'd complain about we.

**[0:11:51] Michelle Obama:** Nothing happened today at school, you know, and I'm, I don't know what 2nd grade is supposed to be, but I don't feel like I'm getting what I need to get out of 2nd grade. It took a month of coming home and complaining and my mom was quietly listening, but she wasn't just listening, she was plotting, and it was a month in. She went up to the school, watched herself and saw that this teacher not only wasn't teaching, but it had appeared that she didn't even like kids.

**[0:12:20] Michelle Obama:** So she went to the principal's office and read them the riot act. I don't know what she said or what she did, but three of us were pulled out of the class for testing. And I just remember I just didn't have to go into that class. And I spent a couple of weeks taking some specialized tests. We were just doing bubble tests, didn't know what it was. Um, got the results and the results proved that I could skip 2nd grade and it was a lifesaver for me.

**[0:12:50] Michelle Obama:** But I'll never forget my mom finally did. I would hear her complaining to my dad, this teacher, you know, these teachers who don't care about these kids. She had gotten us out. But she was worried about the kids who were stuck in that 2nd grade class. Who didn't have parents who were their advocates, who, you know, were gonna spend probably a wasted year in 2nd grade, missing whatever they were gonna miss. But that was one of those instances where I knew that if m.

**[0:13:17] Michelle Obama:** A cry for help from me was heard by my mother and acted upon. She could've been one of those mothers who said, Well, just, you know, life is life, just get it together. But she knew there was something different in what I wanted and what I needed, and she, you know, she made it happen.

**[0:13:35] Steven Bartlett:** Does that teach you to respond to others who cry for that help?

**[0:13:38] Michelle Obama:** Uh, probably does. I mean, I still think about the kids who were left behind. I mean, there's just something that that really touches me about kids who are as bright as we are, because we grew up with them. You know, my mother saw them, uh, and the only difference between me and them was that they had a mother that cared. And a lot of their lives look totally different from ours because of that. And I find myself being that advocate for those kids, those the the kids who are underestimated and under supported, and that turns out to be kids, most kids all over the world.

**[0:14:21] Michelle Obama:** So I do find that that moment for me was a defining in in a pretty fundamental way about how I, how I fight for kids, in the way that I saw my mom fight for me.

**[0:14:37] Steven Bartlett:** Race One of the, um, startling things with these two photos, mainly because I think it's this way around, but um, this is, I believe, what? 2nd grade or something, That was 1st grade, 1st grade, and then this is 7th, 8th, that 7th grade.

**[0:14:51] Michelle Obama:** that was 8th, 7th or 8th grade. Yeah, yeah,

**[0:14:54] Steven Bartlett:** There's a lot less white people in the 2nd photo, which means that which assumes that white people started leaving your school.

**[0:15:01] Craig Robinson:** No, they live in the neighborhood, they live in the the whole of South Shore.

**[0:15:06] Steven Bartlett:** My. My question really is about what role did race play in your childhood? Because I think about my own childhood, and it's quite a prominent, persuasive force in who I became and what I thought about the world, and really what I thought about myself. So race is an issue As young people in Chicago, what role did it play?

**[0:15:25] Michelle Obama:** I I think there is a lot of race pride in our family. Um, there was this feeling, uh, this understanding that, um, uh. Because of people's prejudice, there would be a lot of white people that would underestimate you, that would mistreat you, that would assume things about you. Our family, our entire family on both sides, really smart, talented, gifted people to have a family that big and to ha, and. But all working class people, right? So we lived among sort of real regular excellence, you know, I mean, people who were teachers and who were, who were engineers.

**[0:16:08] Michelle Obama:** All of our cousins were people who were expected to do to do well in school, so we were taught like, no one's better, smarter than you, you know, you're capable. My father was that voice for a lot of our cousins. If they didn't have that kind of energy in their lives, it was always like, you got this and you know what you're doing. So in our home, there was race pride. But when you, you know, live in a.

**[0:16:36] Michelle Obama:** When we moved into South Shore, into Robbie's house, our aunt Robbie's house. Most of my neighborhood friends were white kids. Um, Rachel Dempsey and Susan Yacker, and uh, so Sofanot Consapont, who was a Korean girl, because we lived by a hospital and her mother was a nurse. So it was a very mixed. The the stewards who were, you know, they, they were a Black family but could pass for white. I mean, it was just sort of some of everyone in the neighborhood, Miss Mason, who was the little old white lady across the street, and our neighbors were the Mendosas, the Mexicans.

**[0:17:14] Michelle Obama:** Um, you know, it was sort of everywhere all around us, and everyone got along, neighbors knew one another, we played with each other. I went to Rachel's house and for lunch, and, you know. But then one year, it was like the lights went off for the white people and they were gone without a trace. You

**[0:17:36] Steven Bartlett:** they call this white flight. this was white flight

**[0:17:38] Craig Robinson:** Yeah, this was white flight.

**[0:17:38] Michelle Obama:** in action. And yeah, yeah, White flight And so you

**[0:17:40] Steven Bartlett:** was, for anyone that doesn't have context on white flight, what is? what it's. It's is that?

**[0:17:44] Michelle Obama:** the sociological occurrence of what happens in communities. When black people sort of start making their way up socioeconomically and can buy homes or rent homes in neighborhoods that are predominantly white. So instead of, um, white people accepting it, they sell their homes en masse. There's a sort of undercurrent of we better get out because these Black families coming in are gonna ruin the neighborhood and bring down property values. So you better sell now and go go further south into the southern suburbs.

**[0:18:19] Michelle Obama:** And so when you're young, you you kinda know something is going on, you know, it's not like we were sitting around the kitchen table talking about white flight. But what you do know and you take in as a child is like, these people are running from us, you know? It's like my dad, who is this, you know, amazingly kind and generous person. Who would would have been good for a lot of these people's kids, these white folks kids to get to know and be around us, who turned out to be who we were, and we were always gonna be.

**[0:18:56] Michelle Obama:** That you're running for, uh, from us. Well, our feeling was like, Well, how stupid is racism? and how stupid are you for not really looking and getting to know? So, so, race to me, I in in my household was just a dumb manifestation of ignorant people, but we were taught to keep moving through it.

**[0:19:21] Steven Bartlett:** How do you stop it getting to you? One of the remarkable things I noticed, even when we spent some time together yesterday, was there is no apparent bitterness. And there's, one would say, that there's reason to be. Because when you're so powerful and so prominent and so well known, you're exposed to everything. And going through that experience in those early years, and then going through the everything that happened thereafter, there doesn't appear to be any bitterness, there doesn't appear to be any chip on the shoulder, any anger.

**[0:19:50] Michelle Obama:** Sometimes there is.

**[0:19:52] Craig Robinson:** you just don't show it, you just don't show it. But I, I will say, at least from my standpoint, mom and dad, but mom especially, she, she taught us empathy almost to a fault, right? So she always said, you remember how she always said, put yourself in the other person's shoes. And she would always say, you never know what's going on in someone else's home. And so I always approached negativity toward me with empathy. That was the 1st thing.

**[0:20:32] Michelle Obama:** It's like, Oh, what's what's what happened What happened here?

**[0:20:34] Craig Robinson:** to you that made you so mean and evil? The other thing that our parents were really big on was do not care what anybody else who's not sitting at this table thinks. If we ever said somebody said something and it affected the way we behaved, that's when you saw anger from my parents. I that's when you get mean it,

**[0:21:00] Michelle Obama:** into trouble.

**[0:21:01] Craig Robinson:** you got in trouble with my parents when that, I mean, it was crack back right away.

**[0:21:06] Steven Bartlett:** What would they say back?

**[0:21:07] Craig Robinson:** They they would be like, So you're gonna tell you're telling me that what? Whoever this is over here said is more important to you than what you hear around this table. Then you can go live with so and so.

**[0:21:22] Michelle Obama:** I mean, you know, if our admonitions in our house were always conversations, it was discussions. And you, you knew when your parents were disappointed, you knew when you had struck a a nerve. And it was never about, you know, just making a mistake, or, you know it. It was about thinking in a way that felt oppressive, internally oppressive. They didn't like that kind of thinking in us. They wanted us to feel our own power. They never wanted us to surrender the way we thought about ourselves to the rest of the world.

**[0:21:57] Michelle Obama:** Because they probably understood that they couldn't trust the way the rest of the world would treat us, right? So you can't you? They, uh, they knew that we couldn't be so locked into what the world would say, because the world was grounded in racism. And that, you know, a little black boy, e more so, even my brother, uh, were. They were probably more concerned with him because he was gonna encounter it every day as he got taller and bigger and smarter.

**[0:22:28] Michelle Obama:** Because all of m the men in our lives had experienced someone trying to knock them down a peg or two. I think our parents understood that that was waiting for both of us, and it was waiting for my brother in particular. So they wanted to arm him with enough self esteem to fill him up at the table where he was safe. To give him the tools to just embed in him a level of empathy so that he wouldn't become angry, because anger for a young black boy was dangerous, you know?

**[0:23:00] Michelle Obama:** Um, so there was a real clever way of, um, allowing us to have these conversations, but filling us up with empathy. So so that we could function in in a racist society.

**[0:23:14] Steven Bartlett:** Being underestimated, it's a word that I saw throughout your book, and it's a word you you mentioned a 2nd ago. You knew you were going into an underestimated world, if I can call it that, a world that was gonna underestimate you because of your race and and things like that. But it's so clear to me that you had your shoulders back regardless. And I, I spoke to Valerie, Do you know Valerie? Of course, you know Valerie, you worked with Valerie for many decades.

**[0:23:40] Steven Bartlett:** And you, um, she was a sort of an early mental figure in your life, Michelle, yeah, she was, and she actually wrote me a letter about you. She describes that she's never met someone in her life that was so clear on what they wanted to achieve in the world. In terms of the social good and the impact they wanted to have. But was so unbelievably confident and high conviction. And when I think about when you went to Harvard and studied law, there was what?

**[0:24:02] Steven Bartlett:** 30 of the people attending were were women, and then a tinier percentage were were black women. And you were aware again of being underestimated, but again, shoulders back, it seemed. Where does that come from in you?

**[0:24:16] Michelle Obama:** oof, um, y uh, living through the incorrectness of that, uh, of that, uh, underestimation, right? 1st of all, I grew up, you know, fortunately, in a predominantly black neighborhood after white flight happened, where, um, everyone assumed I was smart, right? I grew up as a the salutatorian in my grammar school. I went to a top high school. I, you know, so, you know, I had the the fortune of growing up in a validating Black environment, you know, which is, uh.

**[0:24:56] Michelle Obama:** We talk about that a lot with Black students. Whether they should be going to HBCUS and what happens when you get pulled out into a mixed environment where you are so underestimated so early, you know, you, you start. We talked about the messages that you start telling yourself. I didn't have that because when we were young, you know, uh, my mentors, my teachers, the coaches, my dance teachers, they were all people who. If I made a mistake, or if they, um, doubted me, it was because not because of my race, it was because they.

**[0:25:30] Michelle Obama:** I disappointed somebody in some other way, right? So by the time I hit Princeton, thankfully, I had enough internal data that I could do a lot of things that I was better, smarter, sharper than they would give me credit for. And then it was confirmed when I walked onto Princeton's campus as an undergrad, feeling a little intimidated because it was an Ivy League school. And I wasn't a great test taker, although I was an outstanding student, I wasn't a standardized, good standardized test taker.

**[0:26:06] Michelle Obama:** All those numbers said that I shouldn't do well at Princeton. Um, and so I came in as an affirmative action kid, sort of feeling like, maybe I don't belong in these ivory towers, and maybe these kids coming from these other schools are s really so much smarter and better than I am. And then I sat on that campus and I looked around and I was like, Oh my god, well, there's all kinds of affirmative action that I that never talk about.

**[0:26:34] Michelle Obama:** You know, there's wealth and legacy, uh, there there's athletic, uh, affirmative action. There were a lot of kids that were on that campus and as I learned, continue to gain access to these seats of power that have nothing to do with their raw academic ability. There sh there. There are a lot of bright kids who go to these schools, but there are a lot of bright kids whose parents get them into these schools. And when I got on campus and I came out of my 1st semester with straight, a's, I was like, Well, what's the what are you talking about?

**[0:27:08] Michelle Obama:** what? what are you? who are you? Why are you trying to mess with my head in this way? When you guys are y you, you're not even working as hard as me. But that was, it was infuriating, but it was freeing because I was like, I get it now. This you're just trying to get into my head, you're scared of me, you know, you don't want me competing with you. And I think it was at that that period going to one of the top schools that I was like, I'm done, I am done worrying about whether I belong here.

**[0:27:41] Michelle Obama:** You know, this is a scam. Um, so that I think that really, I came out of Princeton just feeling like, Rah, you know, let me at em, you know, y, you know, for forget all this stuff. And now I'm trying to tell other kids that it's like, I'm coming down from the mountaintop with the with the tablet of truth and going. Do not let these people scam you. This is all a racket

**[0:28:07] Steven Bartlett:** What's the scam?

**[0:28:09] Michelle Obama:** that you don't belong, that they're smarter, that they work harder, that they know more, that they deserve this more than you do. That's not, it's, it's just not true. And so from then on, I was like, you prove that I don't bel belong here, you know, I'm gonna sit at these tables and I am going to run it from now on. Why? why am I listening to you? why don't you listen to me? I think that experience for me was freeing in an odd kind of way.

**[0:28:40] Michelle Obama:** And a lot of kids don't get access, they're just blocked out and they're. It's sort of like they're told, don't look behind the curtain because you don't belong. And they want us to think that way. I stopped think thinking that way a long time ago.

**[0:28:53] Steven Bartlett:** The journey you've both been on is is really, really remarkable for so many reasons, but it's also remarkable for the pivots along the way. And um, I was reading about a bit of a an identity crisis that you had when you were 2728 years old. Um, Michelle, when you were, st you were a lawyer

**[0:29:09] Michelle Obama:** I was a lawyer. at Um Yeah, yeah,

**[0:29:10] Steven Bartlett:** Sidley and Austin.

**[0:29:11] Michelle Obama:** yes, beautiful, high paid corporate attorney, uh, that allowed me to buy a nice Saab

**[0:29:18] Craig Robinson:** Sub sub driving attorney.

**[0:29:20] Michelle Obama:** and drive an attorney. Uh, 1st job, 1st real job I had had right out of, uh, uh, Harvard. Um, because that's what you did, you know? After you went go to law school, top school, you're recruited by the top firms in the country and they offer you exorbitant salaries. So at that age, as I started as a 1st year associate, I was making more than my parents made combined, which seemed like something you didn't turn down.

**[0:29:46] Michelle Obama:** You know, if you have the opportunity to do that, it's like, Well, yeah, sure, I'm gonna work for a FI firm. But that's what I was really doing all my life. I was box checking. I was just because I was a good student and I could do certain things, that's what I did, you know? I sort of understood that there was a formula. Be a good student, show up, do the work, check, got that, get good grades.

**[0:30:08] Michelle Obama:** Go to a competitive high school, went to a magnet high school. With this class treasurer, top of the class, check, got it, I cause I can do this. Da da, da, I'm just marching through life. Check, check, check. Apply to, uh, top college. Um, got into Princeton, right? I'm, I'm in, graduated at the top of the class, go to law school. Why? I don't know. There wasn't really a thought to why I went to law school, it was just, I don't know what I'm gonna do after graduate school.

**[0:30:36] Michelle Obama:** Not gonna be a doctor because I don't like science or math. I like to talk, I like to argue, and so why not go to law school? So I applied to Harvard, get in well, you go to Harvard, you know that that was just that was my thought process. There wasn't a there wasn't purpose, there wasn't. What do I care about? I didn't know what being a corporate lawyer meant. I was just checking boxes until I became a lawyer.

**[0:31:05] Michelle Obama:** And and and a lot of stuff happened in that year, besides me just joining, Uh, Sidley and Austin. In that period of time, we lost our father. Um, he died very suddenly. Um, uh, um, one of my best friends from from college, uh, Suzanne, um, died of, uh, lymphoma, and it was sudden. She was diagnosed in December and she died in May. Really, the 1st time in my life where people that weren't expected to die died, you know, we had lost grandparents and great grandparents.

**[0:31:42] Michelle Obama:** And and I, I was really having kind of an existential crisis. Sitting on the 47th floor of my in my beautiful office, with a secretary and a Saab in the garage, thinking, Why me? Why am I here rather than Suzanne? Because she was that friend, was also the dreamer, the person who wasn't box checking. She went to Princeton, but she traveled the world, she didn't go to business school right away. And I always thought, you gotta get your life together, you gotta be on a pathAnd.

**[0:32:14] Michelle Obama:** I thought, thank God she didn't do that.

**[0:32:16] Steven Bartlett:** This episode is sponsored by Asana. Let me, uh, admit something to you. I'm a little bit messy. I have got ADHD and sometimes I forget things. I'll put something in Google Drive, I'll put something on my desktop, it's all over the shop. And I can't imagine how much that is costing me as an entrepreneur or as a creative. I never thought of this as a project management problem, I just thought of it as a me problem.

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**[0:34:36] Michelle Obama:** because she didn't know she was gonna die. But instead of sitting in some office building, she was living life and trying on new things. And I realized I hadn't done that for myself. Uh, I all I was doing was following a game plan. I wasn't trying to figure out my purpose, and at the same time, I met Barack Obama. He showed up in my life as the opposite of a box checker, but somebody I describe in in my book as an ultimate swarver.

**[0:35:08] Michelle Obama:** He did nothing by the book, but he was brilliant and interesting. You know, he didn't go to law school right away. He worked as a community organizer, he lived in different parts of the world. He was really trying to unpack life in a way that people in my generation weren't trying to do. You were just, you know, I was, I was with the black bourgeois, right? And people were buying their homes and getting their cars together and trying to make partner at a firm.

**[0:35:38] Michelle Obama:** There was a very finite path and I hadn't explored anything else but that. And I thought, I, I have to do something more before I settle on this, and I think Barack helped give me the courage. You know, he was the person in my ear that said, W. Why would you wanna just stop here and settle on this career? When there's so much out there that you haven't tried, right? You can do this. And I was like, but I'm, I, I'm.

**[0:36:08] Michelle Obama:** I'm loaded down with debt. And right around that time, we we knew we were gonna be together, we knew we were gonna be engaged. And he was like, we'll get, we'll figure that out. He's like, don't, don't settle on becoming a partner at a law firm because of money, you know? It's like, you need to see the world in a different way and we'll figure this out together. And so I started swerving, um, I started trying other things in life and never looked back.

**[0:36:37] Steven Bartlett:** Craig, when was the 1st time you heard that your l little sister had met a guy called Mr. Obama

**[0:36:45] Craig Robinson:** Well, she called, called me up and said, Hey, I met a guy, I wanna bring him by. And my mom, my dad and I were sitting on our front porch. And she pulls up in her nice Saab 900 that you've heard a lot about. And he gets out of the car, and that was the 1st time we met him.

**[0:37:03] Steven Bartlett:** and what did you think of him? Honestly,

**[0:37:06] Craig Robinson:** Honestly, I was like, you know, he may last two months because that's because of because of, because of she'd be. He'd do something and be like, Ah, that's a deal breaker, and he'd be on on his way. And my mom, I remember my mom saying, Well, at least he's tall. We, we, we were just meeting him like we would meet somebody. She'd she'd bring But I never brought, by, she I didn't bring a never. She didn't lot of boyfriends bring a lot of guys by, so home.

**[0:37:33] Craig Robinson:** Yeah, that's why we thought it wouldn't last that long, cause she didn't bring too many guys by.

**[0:37:38] Michelle Obama:** yeah, but why would you think it wouldn't last? The people that didn't Cause, last, you didn't meet,

**[0:37:43] Craig Robinson:** but we heard about them. yeah, but they, you Yeah,

**[0:37:45] Michelle Obama:** never met them.

**[0:37:46] Craig Robinson:** yeah, well, I have known my sister

**[0:37:49] Michelle Obama:** That's one of those just a long sort of myths. time. Michelle's so hard on men, you know? So

**[0:37:54] Craig Robinson:** It's it.

**[0:37:54] Michelle Obama:** it's like, Yeah, I, you I didn't say know, I, she was hard, I brought him, I brought him home. And I think there were. There was one other boyfriend that you met, even though I had plenty of boyfriends. I just, you that I know, I think,

**[0:38:04] Craig Robinson:** met more than than two

**[0:38:06] Michelle Obama:** well, that's because we went to guys. school together, right? But those guys didn't they didn't come, but last. they didn't come home.

**[0:38:11] Craig Robinson:** Well, okay, well, I met them, I met them, but

**[0:38:15] Michelle Obama:** but they didn't meet mom and dad.

**[0:38:16] Craig Robinson:** no, they didn't meet mom and dad. But that's cause we weren't in Chicago. Ugh, anyway,

**[0:38:20] Steven Bartlett:** it's well, that matters is really how it turned out, right? So like

**[0:38:24] Michelle Obama:** this is the sibling. It's like, ugh, you know,

**[0:38:27] Steven Bartlett:** you rejected him at 1st, right?

**[0:38:29] Michelle Obama:** yeah, yeah, because he, uh, Barack was I. I was assigned to be his advisor, and that didn't mean I was his boss. But every I was a 1st year associate, so they tried to pair 1st years, sort of w with with new summer associates. Just to help get them acclimated and to kinda give them advice, to sort of mentor them for the summer. So I was his MENT mentor, right? So he comes in, he's late, so I'm thinking, Okay, this guy's trifling, cause we didn't in the Robinson family, we didn't do late.

**[0:38:59] Michelle Obama:** But he was raining and he didn't have an umbrella, and so he was a little wet. Um, so I was a little annoyed, but he, he stood up and he, he was tall, and he was more handsome than his pictures. So I sort of thought, Oh, okay, and not what I expected. So, um, I took him, uh, around the office, got him settled into his office, took him out to lunch for the f, uh, that 1st day.

**[0:39:25] Michelle Obama:** And we talked for like hours and I knew that we were gonna be friends. He was smart, he was funny, had a good sense of humor, didn't take himself too seriously, so we we clicked right off the bat. And over the course of the summer, we actually became really good friends. I was even trying to introduce him to some of my friends, my girlfriends, saying, there's this really cute guy who's my advisor. Because in my mind, there wasn't any way that the the f.

**[0:39:55] Michelle Obama:** The few Black uh assoc associates there who both went to Harvard were gonna date. In my mind, I was like, that's gonna be tacky, that's expected, right? And I was just sort of into doing what wasn't not doing the expected, right? So my mind went somewhere else. I was like, ugh, meet all these wonderful, beautiful women that I know, you know? Um, and after a couple of outings, he said, Well, why don't we go out? and I was like, No way are we gonna go out.

**[0:40:27] Michelle Obama:** That's just not gonna happen. We are friends. And he was sort of like, Huh, well, why? And he made the case. I said, Well, you know, I don't think it looks rightAnd. he said, Who cares about how it looksAnd. so he made his Barack Obama case over a couple of weeks. And finally, I was like, Okay, we'll go out on one dateAnd. so he planned, uh, a, uh. After that, it was over. It was a full day date where he pulled out all the stops.

**[0:40:56] Michelle Obama:** He, uh, we, um, I'm sure I picked him up because I had the nice carAnd. we went to the Art Institute, where he showed me his suave, you know, view of art. And we had lunch at the museum. And then we walked from the Art Institute down Michigan Avenue northSo. we w walked hand in hand, talked slowly. And, you know, then we went and had dinner on top of Lake Point Tower, which was a beautiful view of the city.

**[0:41:27] Michelle Obama:** And then we, I think, into the evening, watching, going to Spike Lee's Do the right thingSo. I mean, he had planned, you know, cultureYou know, artYou know, sh lovely strollAnd. slowly I was like, Okay, maybe I, I, you know, I spoke too soonYou know, maybe there is something more hereBut yes, that's a long way of saying I did say no for a a good month or twoAnd. But by the end of the summer, we were, I think it was that summer, by the end of the summer, I was introducing him to my my family.

**[0:42:06] Steven Bartlett:** You both have that through line through your story of ticking the boxes. And then eventually, it's kind of what we were talking about yesterday in your show. Where if you have sometimes, like, your preconception has to fail you

**[0:42:19] Michelle Obama:** yeah, that's right.

**[0:42:19] Steven Bartlett:** and you have to feel it for you to understand that maybe a pivot is needed in your life. And that was the same when I was talking about my early journey. Um, Valerie, this very interesting character in your life. This is the letter I found it that Valerie wrote into me. And she's talking about the the pivot you made from being a lawyer to leaving that law firm and and going in pursuit of something else. What yeah.

**[0:42:40] Steven Bartlett:** was the something else you were pursuing before? I read what Valerie said to me,

**[0:42:43] Michelle Obama:** I had no idea, um, because I didn't know anything, uh, but I started with what I I. I had to spend some time thinking, journaling about what did I care about?

**[0:42:56] Steven Bartlett:** What was the journal question?

**[0:42:57] Michelle Obama:** What brought me joy, you know, of all the things that I was doing in my life, what was the thing? When I had it on my calendar that I would jump out of bed for? That would change my the way I felt about the dayAnd. it always had to. D. It went back to mentoring, because while I was doing all this stuff in law, uh, in in my education, I was always finding ways to help younger kids understand how to get hereSo.

**[0:43:25] Michelle Obama:** it was the mentoring piece that Craig mentioned. You know, we never talked about that when we think about our, our parents, um, that brought me absolute joy, you know? So I, I started really trying to listen to that self interested part of me, you know, it's like, what made me happy? I never asked myself that. I also, I always did what I thought I was supposed to doAnd. making money was one of the things that you were supposed to do if you were anyone who had an opportunity to get an Ivy League educationThat was really all they talked aboutThat's all they showed youYou know, there wasn't a course or a major in helping peopleUm, you know, there wasn't a course

**[0:44:06] Michelle Obama:** on working with young kidsYou know, there's no major for thatEspecially in the Ivy LeaguesSo I know n I knew nothing about the nonprofit worldI knew nothing about NGOsSo

**[0:44:18] Steven Bartlett:** Well, Valerie said, she said, the opposite, I'm joking, I'm joking. The day I met Michelle Obama changed my life forever. I'll never forget the moment she strolled into my office for an interview, dressed in all black, hair elegantly pulled back. I was struck by the confidence that she carried herself with. She looked me right in the eye. When she shook my hand, she was so poised and self assured that it was hard to believe that she was only 27 years old.

**[0:44:45] Steven Bartlett:** Michelle told me about her life, how she grew up in the south side, how much love and support her parents poured into her and her brother, Craig. I asked her why she was considering public service rather than a much more lucrative path as a partner in a law firm. And she said that she had recently lost her dad and her best friend within a year. And their deaths were a painful reminder of the finiteness of life and the importance of making it purposeful.

**[0:45:10] Steven Bartlett:** And how she knew that her abilities could lead her to make a difference in the lives of others, to serve and to give back to the city that she'd grown up. I was so in awe of her clarity of purpose, determination and vulnerability that I offered her a job on the spot.

**[0:45:27] Michelle Obama:** that was close, right?

**[0:45:28] Steven Bartlett:** Yeah, It was the same,

**[0:45:30] Michelle Obama:** He's like, Ooh, what did Valerie

**[0:45:31] Steven Bartlett:** it was the same.

**[0:45:31] Michelle Obama:** say?

**[0:45:32] Steven Bartlett:** And at that time in your life, you know, those early 30s, what's what's going on with, um, Mr. Obama?

**[0:45:38] Michelle Obama:** Oh, by then, he was, uh, he had written his book because he, he was the president of the Harvard Law Review, the president of the Harvard Law Review is the top student at the top law school in the worldSo. And he was the 1st Black student to be elected UM president of the Harvard Law Review. Um, and that garnered a lot of attention for him. We were dating at the time and so he got a book contract to write a story, Dreams from my father, um, which I thought was who writes a book at your age, right, you know?

**[0:46:13] Michelle Obama:** But he was like, Yeah, I might as well tell my storyAnd. you know, and it was money, right? He got an advance and we were engaged, so he was working on that project, but he was still trying to figure out what he was gonna do. And when you're the president of the Harvard Law Review, basically, the world of law is open to you. The normal path is that you clerk for an appellate judge, um, for a year or two, and then you go on to to clerk for the Supreme CourtThen, you know, you go on to do appellate workYou, you know, you, you have offers from every law firmYou are in demandOr you can do policy or whateverThat was the

**[0:46:52] Michelle Obama:** normal pathI was like, So are you gonna clerk? He was like, why would I clerkSo, he didn't work at any of the big firmsHe went to a very small firm that was doing public interest workSo he wasn't making a lot of moneyHe was doing what I was doingHe was going the opposite direction of all the things that was were supposed to make us moneyBut he was like, I, money isn't why I'm doing thisI'm trying to figure out how I can best use my skills to impact the most peopleSo he was doing 50 million jobsAnd we were cobbling together our payments for our student loans at the time, which were more than our mortgageWe had bought a condominiumWe were on our

**[0:47:32] Michelle Obama:** way to building our lives togetherBut we were in deep debtSo while we were both pursuing our deep love of being in the communityWe our incomes were going in the opposite direction of where they were supposed to goBut we were in this togetherYou know, politics hadn't really come into the fold yetIt wasn't a part of the conversationBut we were both kind of on these parallel pathsKind of figuring out how do we take all these skills and all this energy and help peopleI was working in the cityHe was working everywhere else and writing a bookAnd we were just kind of, you know, we were sort of plotting ahead

**[0:48:15] Steven Bartlett:** Business takes me all over the world and I travel about 50 weeks a year. And up until recently, one of the challenges I continued to face was staying connected as soon as I landed somewhere new. The reality is I don't have time to wait around and sort out SIM cards while I'm on the go. So a few months ago, I tried something called Airlo for the 1st time, and they are now a sponsor of today's episode.

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**[0:49:05] Steven Bartlett:** Install Airlo today to get three off your 1st eSIM with code DOAC3 at checkout. That's D o a c three when you download the Airlo app. I guess I'm seeking advice from both of you on, uh, on love and rom romance and relationships. Because in your, you know, I'm in my early 30s now, and hm, hm. when I look to both of your stories of love in your your 30s, it's not a straight line, it's not a straight line, to say the least.

**[0:49:33] Steven Bartlett:** Um, Michelle, you talk about going to marriage counseling with with Barack. What does someone like me, at 32 years old, who is in a relationship, who is aggressively pursuing a career? Because I feel like I've gotta build and build and build and set my family up for the future. What advice would you both give me about navigating love through that part of your career? Where it's go go.

**[0:49:57] Michelle Obama:** for somebody with your personality in particular, um, my advice would be that, um, you know, I could see you thinking, you know, if we're, if, if, if. I've got my stuff together and I've got my path going over here, and you've got your path going over on over there. You know, as long as we're both trudging along, you know, and pushing, we're gonna be goodAnd. generally, that that can work because you can be two independent beings out there with, you know, basically slaying your own dragons, right?

**[0:50:35] Michelle Obama:** Making the choices about which dragons you slay and how. You know how, how much armor you wanna useYou knowYou're, you're independent people, and that feels good right now. Until your 1st and most important joint project happened, which you told me you want, you have kids, right? That's oftentimes when the rub happens, because when you, when you bring life into the worldYou knowYou, that's the the. That's the project where you can't do that independentlyYou can'tYou can't be on one path and your partner on anotherBecause raising those kids and making them as whole as as you'd want them to be has so little to do with the dragon you're slaying now than it does with how you partner and engage and and

**[0:51:28] Michelle Obama:** and make choices together on this. These little creatures that you're gonna love more than anything in the worldAnd you're not gonna wanna get that project wrongBut you've gotta work with your partnerYou gotta communicateAnd that's when it gets really hard.

**[0:51:42] Steven Bartlett:** Is that when it got hard for you?

**[0:51:45] Michelle Obama:** Yeah, yeah, because, you know, when you're independent operators in the worldIt, you know, he's off, he's traveling, I'm travelingYou knowMaybe I don't see him during the weekAnd then on Saturday, whoa, it's great, I love you, I missed you. This was so cool. Tell me about your lifeAnd. ooh, this is, and it's sexy, and it's all of thisrightAnd it feel and you're, you're moving, and you know, and you also are okay having a breakIt's like, let me miss you for a little bitSo I don't care that you're traveling or that you're everywhereBut the minute there's a little baby that is waking someone upAnd if there's one person that's carrying the burden of thatYou knowif one person's dream stops because they're taking

**[0:52:27] Michelle Obama:** on the lion's share of of thingsAnd you're still going to the gymAnd you're still slaying your dragons at the same rateAnd you haven't looked over at your partner, who maybe is now stuck at home because she's breastfeedingOr she made a set of choices to make this little creature workAnd you guys haven't had a conversation about thatAnd what that balance looks likeBecause you're just slaying your dragon at the same rateOh, there's gonna be problemsYou knowThere's gonna be resentmentThere's gonna be fatigueThere's gonna be measuring and counting and all the thingsSo I think it's just important to communicate nowTo start doing the work of make sh making sure that you're def.

**[0:53:14] Michelle Obama:** You guys are defining your one life togetherThat you're deciding together now what dragons are gonna be slainAnd who gets to do what whenYou know, um, and what does that feel likeYou know, are you gonna be working all the timeAre you gonna be traveling all the time on the roadIs she coming with youHow does she feel about that?

**[0:53:37] Steven Bartlett:** Did you have that conversation with No, no, we did you? didn't have that conversation notNo, cause with

**[0:53:41] Michelle Obama:** I didn't know that that was a thing that you had to worry about. Because when you're in the midst of it, it's when you're in the midst of pursuing your own independent journeysIt's beautifulRightIt is. It's like, I'm independent, he's independentWe we get alongAnd then all of a sudden someone's legs are cut up from under themYou knowYou knowSomeone is making a different set of sacrifices that wasn't negoti that weren't negotiatedUm Because of children because of childrenAnd because of life

**[0:54:14] Steven Bartlett:** you had some pregnancy struggles and I. I've spoken to many women on this show who have been through similar pregnancy struggles. And it's something that I've. It's actually a big conversation in my life at the moment, but also just some of my friends in my life around trying to get pregnant. and the IVF journey which you went on, what do women who are struggling need to understand? And how did you feel when you were contemplating the IVF journey and when you started to have struggles, uh, conceiving without IVF?

**[0:54:47] Michelle Obama:** no, it's the thing you know, because we don't talk about our bodies and w women's health, and there's just not a lot of conversation about marriage or pregnancy or any of this. Our parents don't talk about it, their parents before them don't talk about it, right? So you im imagine your life. And as you're checking boxes, I'm waiting, I've delayed having kids. I found the love of my life and now I'm gonna get pregnant. And no one tells you that there is really a biological clock like that's not false.

**[0:55:20] Michelle Obama:** You know, we have partner and podcast, Dr. Sharon M Malone, who wrote a book, Grown Women Talk, where she's talking, she's sort of ripping the the curtain off of women's health questions. And in a conversation with her, she reminded us that women we are born with a finite set of eggs and we don't get any more, and every month we're losing them. And so there is a period of time, usually, and it's different for everyone, usually in your thirties, where you go from FR fertile to not, and it's like falling off of a cliff.

**[0:55:58] Michelle Obama:** And I'm like, W, why didn't anybody tell me this? Why? why? why wasn't Pe? Why? why weren't people talking about this? So by the time I we started really trying, which which worked perfectly for our careers and maturing and having everything set right, because that's what we're we're trying to get everything set. Unlike our parents who, you know, had us, we lived in a little bitty apartment, you know, one income. Our generation, we're worrying about, I want everything set.

**[0:56:26] Michelle Obama:** I I guarantee you you have things way more set than any any of our parents had before they started having kids. But we're waiting for everything to be perfect, no friction, we don't want any friction, right? And while we're, we're waiting for our lives to be perfect, that biological clock is ticking, so you start trying and you it's not working. That's when you go to the doctor and they tell you, Oh, you're, you're running out of eggs.

**[0:56:52] Michelle Obama:** This is normal. I mean, you're gonna have trouble getting pregnant. And so try a little bit. And then now it's time for IVF, um, if you can afford it, which it wasn't covered by insurance at the time. So, you know, it's just a shock to the system. And as some as people who like learning and like knowledge, you really sort of feel gypped, you know that, what? Why is this such a secret? Um, which is why I talk about it openly, and I talk about miscarriages, because the other thing I learned is like most pregnancies, a good percentage of them end in miscarriage.

**[0:57:29] Michelle Obama:** That people have been having miscarriages for years, but not talking about it. So when it happens to you, a box checker, somebody that thought life was gonna be so, and you did all the right things to have things not work out. And to know that it was gonna be that way and nobody told you so that you could be prepared for it, it just f. It was a blow. And then, as a woman, you're walking around owning the blow as if it's your fault, you know, um, and so you're carrying around that burden.

**[0:57:57] Michelle Obama:** And that can become the first pressure point in a marriage. Because emotionally, you've got a woman that is carrying all of this, feeling like a failure, feeling n not having anyone to talk about. Having her hormones go up and down, literally, right? Probably dealing with depression and maybe some postpartum. Still working, still slaying dragons, still on the path, but she's carrying it all on her own. And then if you do IVF, the bulk of the work, the shots, the the we are the we are the the the petri dish in the IVF process.

**[0:58:36] Michelle Obama:** You show up, you come in a cup and ooh, yay, good for you, right? And you're a little mad about that, too, because women have to get shots every week. And you have to go back and forth in between, having your job, your high-powered job, and keeping it all together. You're at the doctor's office every month trying to count your eggs and hoping that you're producing eggs. And then you have to go through the procedure, and then you have to be pregnant for nine months.

**[0:59:05] Michelle Obama:** As your partner is going to the gym and keeping his figure, and, you know, all of that, you know. So it's a long way of saying there are just many natural reasons why marriage, infertility, trying to have kids makes things difficult. It's like, I, I try to tell couples, of course, it's hard. Just listen to what I said, right? Like, it's prob if you're having some issues in your marriage, it's not you, it's the process of marriage.

**[0:59:40] Michelle Obama:** It's just all hard. Because guess what happens when it all works out, right? You know what you end up with babies, little people with their own sense of everything. They mess you up, you love them dearly, but they're a hassle and they're demanding, and they have their own whims. And now they're in your world, in in your partnership, they are y you, you, they're, they are factored into everything. So even when everything works out and you have the f 3.2 kids and you got everything right, it's still gonna be hard.

**[1:00:18] Michelle Obama:** Because now you're y y you're developing a life, right? So I talk about these things because I think that people give up too quickly on on marriage, right? Because there is so much friction built in to the equation. And if you're not getting help, talking about it, going to therapy, just understanding how things are changing. And how do you continuously renegotiate your relationship with your partner? I I just see people quitting because they look at me and Barack and go hashtag couple goals, you know?

**[1:00:56] Michelle Obama:** And I'm like, I, it's hard, it's hard for us too, but I wouldn't trade it. You know, he is, as the young people say, he is my person.

**[1:01:06] Steven Bartlett:** was there ever a moment where you thought,

**[1:01:08] Michelle Obama:** You know, there are the moments where I'm like, Right, but it was it real? No, no, no, there's. There was never really a full moment. There are moments when I was resentful, there are moments when I was mad, there are moments when I didn't feel like I got enough attention. But it's like, don't you feel that in your relationship right now, you know? So it's just me understanding. Yeah, I was mad, but I forgot even why I was mad, right?

**[1:01:41] Michelle Obama:** That's how it's like, Was I really that mad? Oh, did I say that? I'm sorry, I didn't really mean that. So no, in the end, you know, mm-mm, no, we're, you know. And the beauty of my husband and my our partnership is that neither one of us was ever really, ever gonna quit at it. Cause that's not who we are. And I know that about him, he knows that about me, you know? Um, so no,

**[1:02:10] Steven Bartlett:** both of your lives change because of a decision that former President Barack Obama decides to make, which is to run for public office. And that is has a profound impact on both of your lives. Because it's the most powerful job in the world, it is, you become the most famous family in the world. When he said that he was going to do that, did you believe that he was capable of it?

**[1:02:37] Michelle Obama:** uh, yeah, uh, that was the the problem is that, you know, I, I, I knew that I in my heart, I knew that he would make a phenomenal president. Um, and as I've written in in in the light, um, uh, the. The truth was is that my initial reaction was like, Oh, no, oh my god, don't do this. It had everything to do with having the foresight of knowing what this would do to our lives. I mean, I was projecting that if you win, which I thought he could and should, he would be somebody that I would want as my president.

**[1:03:17] Michelle Obama:** It was all about this is gonna, you know, our kids are little, we're gonna have to move. W How do you raise kids in the White House? Um, it's dangerous. Is the first black potential president. We knew there'd be death threats, there would just all the how would we afford it? Because it's it's expensive to live in the White House. There's many people don't know. I mean, much is not covered. Um, you're paying for every food, every bit of food that you eat, you, you know, y, you're not paying for housing and the staff in it, but everything, even travel.

**[1:03:51] Michelle Obama:** If you're not traveling with the president, if your kids are coming on a bright star, which is the first lady's plane, we had to play pay for their travel to be on the plane. It is an expensive proposition and you're running for two years and not earning an income. Um, so all of that was in my mind. Um, how would we manage this? So, uh, my fears were, uh, w came from the fact that I thought he could win, you know?

**[1:04:18] Michelle Obama:** Cause if I, uh, maybe way in the back of my mind, I was hoping that maybe he wouldn't, you know, that this would be the last thing he would do. Um, but I knew he had it in him, uh, to make this. Ha,

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**[1:06:07] Steven Bartlett:** This one change has transformed how my team and I move, train and think about our bodies. When Dr. Daniel Lieberman came on the Dare of a CEO, he explained how modern shoes with their cushioning and support are making our feet weaker and less capable of doing what nature intended them to do. We've lost the natural strength and mobility in our feet, and this is leading to issues like back pain and knee pain. I'd already purchased a pair of Viva Barefoot shoes, so I showed them to Daniel Lieberman.

**[1:06:34] Steven Bartlett:** And he told me that they were exactly the type of shoe that would help me restore natural foot movement and rebuild my strength. But I think it was plantar fasciitis that I had, where suddenly my feet started hurting all the time. And after that, I decided to start strengthening my own foot by using the Viva Barefoots. And research from Liverpool University has backed this up. They've shown that wearing VIVO barefoot shoes for six months can increase foot strength by up to 60.

**[1:06:57] Steven Bartlett:** Visit VIVObarefoot. com slash DOAC and use code DIARY20 from my sponsor for 20 off a strong body starts with strong feet. This has never been done before. A newsletter that is ran by one hundred of the world's top CEOs. All the time, people say to me, they say, Can you mentor me? can you get this person to mentor me? How do I find a mentor? So here is what we're gonna do. You're gonna send me a question, and the most popular question you send me, I'm gonna text it to one hundred CEOs.

**[1:07:30] Steven Bartlett:** Some of which are the top CEOs in the world, running 100 billion dollar companies. And then I'm gonna reply to you via email with how they answered that question. You might say, How do you hold onto a relationship when you're building a startup? What is the most important thing? If I've got an idea and don't know where to start? We email it to the CEOs, they email back, we take the five, six top best answers, we email it to you.

**[1:07:51] Steven Bartlett:** I was nervous because I thought the marketing might not match the reality, but then I I saw what the founders were replying with and their willingness to reply. And I thought, actually, this is really good. And all you've gotta do is sign up completely free. Did you ask for any commitments or promises if he were to win?

**[1:08:09] Michelle Obama:** I, uh, you know, it. It wasn't very thoughtful. Um, I told him that he definitely had to quit smoking because he was still toying with smoking. He was in it, not in it, um, and we had to have enough of a nest egg so that, you know, we could that we wouldn't be just financially broke at the end of it. And, you know, I thought that that that was gonna cut it right, because we weren't in really, we, we.

**[1:08:40] Michelle Obama:** We were just starting to make, uh, decision moves where we were covering the income that we lost making our purposeful moves. So I kinda thought that was gonna be the deal breaker. But then he was chosen to give the speech at the Democratic National Convention and he just blew up. And as a result of that, and maybe I'm getting it out of order. Dreams for my father went back on the bestsellers list. He Brot wrote Audacity of Hope, you know?

**[1:09:10] Michelle Obama:** So there was all this income that was being generated from his book sales. And he kinda looked at me like, I think we're okay, and I'm like, Oh, darn, drats. Um, so I, I didn't know enough to know what to ask for. I mean, we were flying blind. I didn't know what that journey was gonna be and what I would need to negotiate for myself, and that was a bit problematic. It was problematic not to know what I needed.

**[1:09:40] Steven Bartlett:** What should you have said?

**[1:09:43] Michelle Obama:** Um, I should have said that I needed his team to really, truly value that he had a family, you know, that I I shouldn't have just said, Well, this is what it takes to get this done. I mean, it was almost like the consultants that sit around, it was almo almost like this is the way it has to be. And remember the, uh, the legacy of presidential office doesn't recognize families. It it is not designed, you know, you get in there and it all revolves around the commander in chief, who has always been a man.

**[1:10:28] Michelle Obama:** And the whole system of it doesn't really take into account that there's a wife and kids and their needs and their the demands on them. Um, so I wound up having to fight for a lot of stuff on my own. So if I had known these things, and maybe maybe Laura Bush knew more than I did because the Bushes had been in the White House. Maybe, you know, I, you know, there's. I think about, maybe there's some world where people knew more about this thing than we did to understand the impacts, but there are also generational differences.

**[1:11:03] Michelle Obama:** I was a very different first lady, uh, not terribly different from Hillary Clinton, but it was a different time. Uh, we had small kids in the White House, and that didn't happen often. There were just, uh, accommodations and and and ways that the the West Wing did not think about or, uh, or work to fully protect all of us in the process as a unit. And so if I had known what I know knew now, I I.

**[1:11:35] Michelle Obama:** I would have asked for different things, but I ultimately I had to push to to get the things that we needed to be able to operate as a family. Even when it c came down to how the Secret Service protected little kids, you know, um, the girls had to have a detail, right? So they started school in second grade and fifth grade in armed cars with primarily men with guns going into a new school, um, strangers that they did not know.

**[1:12:11] Michelle Obama:** And the detail. These weren't, they weren't practiced on going to Sidwell's second grade, uh, schoolyard. So we had to basically work on, how do you, how do you do this for little kids, you know? So a lot of times details just flood through, they they, they continuously move through. It was important for me that we find uh, two detail leaders that stayed with the girls for most of their time until they became teenagers. Because it was sort of like, you know, these people, right?

**[1:12:46] Michelle Obama:** At least they get to know. They couldn't just have strange men coming throughout, um, and we had to kind of fight for that. Um, so those that's just one example of th the what living under those things and trying to raise small children. You know, the kind of things that the guys in the West Wing weren't thinking about as they were fixing the financial crisis and dealing with Syria. And on and on and on. I was trying to make sure that our kids came out of that process, not crazy, um, and whole.

**[1:13:23] Steven Bartlett:** Being the first black first lady in the White House? The public scrutiny that that comes with is a unique type of scrutiny. Being the first lady anyway comes that's right, with tremendous scrutiny.

**[1:13:39] Speaker 5:** Since stepping reluctantly into public life, I've been held up as the most powerful woman in the world and taken down as an angry black woman. I've wanted to ask my detractors which part of that phrase matters to them the most. Is it angry or black or woman? I've smiled for photos with people who call my husband horrible names on national television, but still want a framed keepsake for their mantle. I've heard about the swampy parts of the internet that question everything about me, right down to whether I'm a woman or man.

**[1:14:18] Speaker 5:** A sitting U. S. congressman has made fun of my butt. I've been hurt, I've been furious, but mostly I've tried to laugh the stuff off.

**[1:14:31] Steven Bartlett:** Craig, if that was my little sister, public scrutiny elevated to the the highest office in the land. I'll ask you the question, how, how would? how did you feel?

**[1:14:42] Craig Robinson:** So I that that's, uh, let me back up, because I had been a basketball coach at a big conference. I always had to tell them, don't worry about what people say in the newspaper. I am doing exactly what I love to do, and that doesn't bother me at all. But then once they got in the White House, I had to tell myself that because I knew that they were doing the best that they could do for the most people, no matter what anybody said.

**[1:15:23] Craig Robinson:** But because it's my little sister and brother in law, and my mom's in the White House and my nieces, I would I. There were times where I would find myself becoming enraged and I'd have to coach myself to. I know they're doing the best they're doing, they they can do for the most people. And I would not want anybody else sitting in that seat but my sister and brother in law. And that's how I got through eight years of that.

**[1:15:52] Craig Robinson:** because it's relentless, it, It is relentless,

**[1:15:54] Steven Bartlett:** it's relentless, it is global, it is relentless, it is unfair.

**[1:15:58] Craig Robinson:** and it's mean, it's just mean. And you know, uh, the I, I've leaned back on the lessons I learned from my parents a long time ago. I wasn't worried about what anybody said who wasn't at this table. And um, and and I, I coached, I, I counseled my family, my immediate family, the same thing. Cause our kids, we, our older kids were old enough to read the papers and read the read the news and on and things online.

**[1:16:27] Craig Robinson:** But Misha always talks about this. In order to get through that, she always says she needed the village of her friends and family, and I just wanted to be a supportive piece of that. And we tried to get out there as much as we could and make it as normal as you can. You know, having Thanksgiving in the White House, you know, that that's an oxymoron, almost having a normal Thanksgiving in the White House. But we tried to make it as normal as we could.

**[1:16:59] Steven Bartlett:** And yourself, how? How does one deal with such scrutiny? The scrutiny occurs for eight years as the, you know, the public are at war with different opinions and ideas. And often the the president is seen as the the villain or the hero in that context, and the family is obviously impacted by that. But then even beyond the White House, it's it's relentless. What is the f? Is there a framework? Is there an underlying belief? Is there a set of values?

**[1:17:24] Michelle Obama:** you know, it go. It goes back to what we learned earlier. I think I approach everything with empathy, um, and Barack does too, and he, he helps keep me in check. Um, because he is so smart and he believes in ideas and he understands context and history. You know, we we are always putting these times, these moments into a greater context. And we're trying to understand where people's rage, ignorance, hatred, whatever it is, where it comes from.

**[1:17:59] Michelle Obama:** And it usually doesn't have anything to do with us, you know, it has to do with the state of the world, you know, and the world in this country is unfair for way more people than it is fair to, and it impacts people of all races. And folks are angry and they're scared, um, and they don't have enough opportunity. And when people are put in that position, they lash out, they're mean, that's when they're, they're, you know, we, we, we otherize people because it gives us a st sense of stability.

**[1:18:35] Michelle Obama:** We pick on someone, someone has to be a little more oppressed than us. Uh, but that doesn't make what they say or feel true. You know, that's n, you know, just because you say it or think it about me. And the way that I had to overcome the racist low expectations of M us in our childhood, it's the same thing. It's like, you're not mad at me. You don't understand a lot about the world, and you've been told a lot of things about who people of my skin color are.

**[1:19:07] Michelle Obama:** You've been taught to fear me because of the history of our country, because of what you're going through. And when you put yourself in other people's shoes, y I, I do get why people are afraid, I do understand it. And also, Barack helps me remember, which I experienced myself, you know, he says, This is still the country that elected Barack Obama twice, you know, and people in this country are proud of that. There is a very small percentage of people who would never, ever in their lifetime, uh, want a black man to tell them how to get down the street to the grocery store, right?

**[1:19:45] Michelle Obama:** Um, they can't hear it, but this this country is bigger than that, right? Um, and we saw it, we experienced it as much hatred, or, you know, conflict or ridicule. We. We had so much love, so much goodwill, you know, so many people who tell us even today, we miss you guys, you know? And it doesn't look like any. You'd be surprised at what corners of the world and our daughters felt it and feel it, right?

**[1:20:20] Michelle Obama:** That is true, too. We are in a really tough time right now, and we are being led sadly by people who are are are not being, in my opinion, their best selves. Um, for whatever reasons they have, whatever is moving them to to push this country in this direction, whatever hurts they have, billionaires have their hurts, too, you know, business leaders, people in power who want power and haven't understand understood their why, you know, can lead us down some d dark tunnels, right?

**[1:20:58] Michelle Obama:** But it's that empathy for me, um, that that ability to kind of give it some perspective. That allows me not to take all that hate in and to really, you know, see the light in people, you know, it's just the better way to live. It keeps us from being embittered, uh, and it keeps us hopeful, and it keeps us working for for people, you know, um, so it's it's kind of a necessity to get through it.

**[1:21:28] Steven Bartlett:** Marion, your wonderful mother, she was a prominent figure throughout that time in the White House. What did she give you that helped you through that journey of being thrust into the very, very, very highest mountain in public service? What role did she play? What force was she at that time for you both?

**[1:21:52] Michelle Obama:** for me, she continued to be that soft place to land, you know, the place where she always saw me, always, always saw who I was. Um, and she was that soft place for our girls. She was common sense right in the middle of the White House, you know, in that big house, people, you know, w just with her sheer presence and her wisdom, you know, that old fashioned wisdom. She was the center of that house. Everyone came to her door and sat in her room and sucked up her wisdom.

**[1:22:36] Michelle Obama:** The butlers, the, you know, the florists, the housekeepers, the chefs, you know, they they were all mothered in some way by her. Um, and so she was that for me, for sure.

**[1:22:51] Steven Bartlett:** I can still see her in your face as you reflect.

**[1:22:53] Michelle Obama:** She's there, she is there. I see it in his face. More, you know how you, you don't see yourself in your like. I don't think I look like him at all, right? But he looks just like my mother, right?

**[1:23:05] Steven Bartlett:** How did that loss impact the family? It's 2024, so it's fairly recent.

**[1:23:10] Craig Robinson:** Yeah, yeah, it's still, it's still painful. Um, but, uh, you know, I'll go back to what I I said at the very beginning. When you talked about the values we had, the underlying value was unconditional love. And Misha and I knew that our mom loved us, and w and and even more importantly, she knew we loved her, she knew her grandkids loved her. So while her d dying was traumatic and disappointing and sad, I always feel like she knew where we stood.

**[1:23:49] Craig Robinson:** And she was, it was, it was when, when she was, uh, right before she passed away, and she we knew she was gonna be leaving us. And I said, Uh, you know, Misha and Barack are on their way. And she was like, Oh, that's nice. And she just s said, that was

**[1:24:07] Michelle Obama:** Yeah, oh, there was nothing left unsaid. Yeah, and there's just there was just there's just a peace.

**[1:24:20] Craig Robinson:** yeah, y I, I, I just miss her, right? But I feel like she knows how we feel about her, and that's that's always comforting. And speaking of comfort, that's how I felt when she was in the White House for them, cause I didn't have to worry about them when she was there.

**[1:24:45] Steven Bartlett:** Have you processed the the grief? Have you been able to

**[1:24:49] Michelle Obama:** I'm sure I have more than he does, cause he doesn't process stuff, he just keeps working through it. But yeah, yeah, I I think I've, I've, I f for me, um, making choices for me. I feel like now I have permission to do what I wanna do. I think part of our podcast is part of that legacy. Um, because at least for me, as a woman, I think at sixty one, I'm finally owning my wisdom, um, in a way that I don't.

**[1:25:25] Michelle Obama:** You know, I think it takes women until we're about 60 to be like, I I think I know a thing or two. But that wisdom comes from her, and she's she was sh, she's our l, our last line of elder wisdom, and so now we're up, we're next up, believe it or not, me and Craig and our family, we're the we're the ones. Um, so IMO, um, in my opinion, our podcast is sort of that offering back.

**[1:25:54] Michelle Obama:** It's like, all right, let's let's keep up the mentoring that we were taught, you know, let's let's let's create our table and be a place where people can come for the little bit of advice and conversation. In the same way that you're doing, Steven, it's like when you, when you learn something, the way you hone in on it is that you keep teaching it to other people, right? You said that, right? Um, and so this is sort of helping us continue to, you know, by helping others, which is a thing we both get great joy from that mentoring.

**[1:26:32] Michelle Obama:** Just being able to, you know, have this conversation here. And maybe somebody's gonna get something from it that I missed when I was their age, that brings us joy. It's like we're here for a reason other than making a bunch of money and, you know, living a nice life or being famous. It's like, maybe we can help somebody. permission? I Yeah,

**[1:26:55] Steven Bartlett:** was watching the coverage over your decision, your decision to sort of take back some of your control and not go to Trump's inauguration. Is that one of those key moments in your life where you did take back control? What was the thinking behind that decision?

**[1:27:09] Michelle Obama:** Um, what do I wanna do in this moment, you know, as a box checking a person who has been box checking her whole life, doing the right thing, um, s trying to always be an example, always going high. Um, I think I now I earned a little bit about, well, how do I feel, you know, do I wanna up in my life and and and take this trip and leave my peace and my children for this?

**[1:27:44] Michelle Obama:** I don't didn't have to that that was my choice, and I I was not. I would have never made that choice. I would have always done what what I thought was the the right thing to do for other people to set an example. And I, I, I think I just told myself, I think I've done enough of that, and if I haven't, then I never will. It'll never be enough, so let me start now. This is the perfect time to start.

**[1:28:14] Michelle Obama:** Um, so yeah,

**[1:28:16] Steven Bartlett:** Obviously, off the back of that, people start to swell rumors that there's an issue with you and Barack, and there's rumors coming. I can, I mean, you can say it yourself, but I don't think that needs to be addressed.

**[1:28:25] Michelle Obama:** uh, uh, what I will say, you know me now well enough, Steven, is if I were having problems with my husband, everybody would know about it. I'd be like, let and let me tell you, and then I and he would know it, and everybody would know it. I'm not a martyr, I'm not, you know, and I would, but I would be problem solving in PR public and be like, let me tell you what he did.

**[1:28:51] Craig Robinson:** Listen, if they were if, if, wait, wait. But if they were having a problem,

**[1:28:55] Steven Bartlett:** Got a podcast now as well, so we're even.

**[1:28:55] Craig Robinson:** I'd be doing a podcast with him.

**[1:28:56] Steven Bartlett:** Yeah, your your podcast is incredible and I highly recommend everybody goes and checks it out. Um, I'm gonna link it below on the screen. I was fortunate enough to be invited on it yesterday and we had a wonderful conversation on there. IMO, in my opinion, it's a, you know, it's a reflection of this kind of conversation. It's human, it's a discovery of life. You're bringing people on there that have wisdom to share, but you're passing through that to understand the worlds that we're all living in and the struggles that we're all contending with.

**[1:29:24] Steven Bartlett:** So it's a wonderful, wonderful space on the internet. I highly recommend my viewers go and check it out on Spotify, on YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. It's a must listen, in my my opinion, because it's so rare that we get a an insight and a window into the the family. But also just the human story of everything that you've both been through in your lives. As a really successful coach, as a stockbroker, as the first lady, as a mother, um, and then everything you're gonna do thereafter.

**[1:29:48] Steven Bartlett:** You're helping me navigate the world, and you help other people navigate the world. Because not everybody has that foundation, not everybody has the parents at home, not everybody has, especially in Black communities, not everybody has the mentors. And you're vicariously mentoring the world through that show, so please do continue. It's a wonderful thing to get to podcast. And I was so happy to hear when you joined the industry, we have a closing tradition, and the closing tradition on this podcast is that the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for.

**[1:30:15] Steven Bartlett:** So the question that's been left for you both is if there is one person in your life that you have been afraid of putting up a boundary with, but know you need to, who would it be? Now? You don't have to name them, but I guess this question is just about boundaries. You know, creation might have been the answer.

**[1:30:36] Michelle Obama:** yeah, I think I've kinda done that.

**[1:30:38] Craig Robinson:** Yeah, yeah, but at this age, we got our boundaries well set.

**[1:30:43] Michelle Obama:** Uh, I I think this, that's a, that's, that's, um, I, I, because we're not naming a who. I think it's the act of practicing setting boundaries, period, right? And I'm I'm having that conversation with my daughters now. I mean, it takes a lot of work to learn how to say no and how not to be, um, people pleasers, which I think there are more of us out there than we'd like to admit. It takes practice, and it takes decades of practice.

**[1:31:16] Michelle Obama:** Um, and I am constantly giving my my girls tips on how to do it, how to politely do it, how to, you know, how to not jam yourself up, how to not say yes right away, how to take a moment and say, let me think about that, you know? Uh, some of a boundary is just saying, wait, I don't have to give you an answer right now. Let me go back and sit in it in the the request and figure out whether it works for me.

**[1:31:48] Michelle Obama:** And so many of us as pleasers, we're trying to give people an an answer right away. And it's hard to look someone in the face and say no. So I think it takes practice, even practice in the wording of it. And then the older you get, the easier it gets. Because guess what you realize your no doesn't usually change anyone else's life. You know, they might be disappointed, but guess what it all? They they will find the next, you know, person that they'll ask.

**[1:32:17] Michelle Obama:** The world continues. None of us are that important, um, and people can deal with a little disappointment every now and then.

**[1:32:25] Steven Bartlett:** And with that, I thank you both. It's such an honor to get to meet you and, um, to learn so much from you. And yeah, I, uh, the rise of your family, the grace, the humility, and the way that you've conducted yourself has been a huge source of inspiration for me. As a young black man, that's navigating the world and that's looking up to role models, um, that aren't often, um, as in close proximity in our lives.

**[1:32:47] Steven Bartlett:** So thank you so much. I, I can't tell you how much you had a profound impact on on me. Thousands of miles away in a small little village in, uh, the southwest of England, it had a profound impact on me and shaping who the man that I became in my life. Uh, and that's a credit to your family, and it's just the greatest honor that I got to speak to you both today. So thank you.

**[1:33:06] Michelle Obama:** It's been a a pleasure

**[1:33:06] Craig Robinson:** Absolute treat to be spending time with you. Thanks for having and hopefully us on.

**[1:33:11] Michelle Obama:** it won't be the last.

**[1:33:12] Steven Bartlett:** I have not. I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button. Wherever you're listening to this, I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button. I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make this show better and better and better and better.

**[1:33:36] Steven Bartlett:** I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to do in this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time.

**[1:34:19] Steven Bartlett:** Let me, uh, admit something to you. I'm a little bit messy. I have got ADHD and sometimes I forget things. I'll put something in Google Drive, I'll put something on my desktop, it's all over the shop. And I can't imagine how much that is costing me as an entrepreneur or as a creative. I never thought of this as a project management problem, I just thought of it as a me problem. So let me give you a window into my fiance Melanie and how she operates.

**[1:34:40] Steven Bartlett:** She's running a business and she doesn't rely on remembering everything, she creates systems that mean she doesn't have to. And one system she's made for her business is that when people attend her retreats and they get automated itineraries and they get packs sent to them automatically after the retreat. All thanks to Asana. So if you're someone who constantly feels like you need to be better, more organized, maybe ask yourself a different question. Is it actually you that needs to change, or is it the way that you're working?

**[1:35:03] Steven Bartlett:** Asana has always been great at organizing work and breaking down projects into tasks. Now you can assign those tasks to AI teammates. These are agents that already understand your work and keep things moving without you having to chase, check or remember. When something needs a real decision, it comes back to you. Asana is the operating system for human agent teams, so less falls through the cracks and less has to live in your head. Try it at asana dot com.

**[1:35:32] Steven Bartlett:** A S A N A dot com. As a founder building a business when I was in my early 20s, I think I always had a deep sense of imposter syndrome because there was something that I wasn't good at, and that thing was finances. Finance and understanding your financial position as a small business is the great enabler of all of your dreams. I was running from it until I discovered a platform called Xero. Xero is an accounting and financial management platform specifically for small businesses, and it brings accounting, payments, payroll and analytics all into one place, even for people that don't love doing finances.

**[1:36:03] Steven Bartlett:** Xero wants to do the financial work for you, but its core ambition is to go beyond keeping the financial record. Because Xero wants to help you understand what's happening in your business and increasingly, and this is maybe the most important thing, is help you make decisions. Finally, we have a partner who can enable us in a simple way for those people that are both left brain or right brain and enable our dreams. You can learn more about Xero by going to Xero dot com.

**[1:36:29] Steven Bartlett:** Thank you to Xero, thank you for sponsoring this podcast, but also thank you for helping me to scale my business. As somebody that, quite frankly, has never loved finances that much.