Jada Pinkett Smith (EXCLUSIVE): “I just wanted to stay ALIVE until 4pm!”, “Me & Will Are NOT Together”, “Tupac Kissed Me TWICE!”

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I was in a cycle of self hatred and it was just a really dark time. I want out. And I knew I had to make it look like an accident, cause I did not want my kids to think that I had committed suicide.

Please welcome Jada Pinkett Smith.

Jada, I knew you as a Hollywood actress. I never knew you were the daughter of two drug addicted parents and a teenage drug dealer yourself on the streets of Baltimore.

I really thought I was gonna be the next big time female drug dealer. I was absolutely fearless. But getting two 9 mm pointed at you,

They pointed two guns at you,

that's a big wake up call.

but what happened?

Somebody set me up and then I had to always have this tough exterior. Now, as I'm dismantling my defenses, I'm in a really raw place.

The Holy Slap? What happened?

I knew I was gonna get blamed, but like, it was insane.

You say protection is your love language. Did you see that as a act of love? The entanglement conversation? We broke up

And then what did you do, Jada?

my mother, my kids, they were like, how could you do this?

Do you regret putting that out?

Honestly?

I've got this wonderful picture that I found

Oh, I know that picture. Do you know why this is relevant? Yeah, I lost them back to back. Jada. Yes,

I always believe that in order to understand someone, you have to understand their context. And having read through the entirety of your book, there was this line that stood out to me, which I think might be might. Summarize the most important part of your earliest context, which is when I go in search of the origins of my broken heart. It is the sense of not being the priority to the two people who gave me life. That creates a fracture in my feeling of worth.

Why did you write that line?

because it's true, you know, it's like our parents are like our 1st mirrors. And so my parents were really young when they had me. I mean, my mom was 17, right? 1718, She was 17 when she was pregnant. I think she was 18 by the time she had me. So youth on top of addiction. And I just realized, you know, as I was going through my life in different therapeutic settings, I was like, oh, wow. Like, the 1st mirror I had was kind of nonexistent in a way, because drugs were my parents priority, you know, during my upbringing.

And so I didn't really get the reflection of feeling like a priority to the people who brought me into the world. Now, thank goodness, my grandmother came into the picture, you know, and she really, she was a a beautiful, powerful mirror for me that, you know, even to my, you know, is still a mirror for me to this day. Um, where I could see myself, I could see the beauty of myself, I could see my gifts and my talents was through her and what she was reflecting back to me.

But um, I think it's important that I think it's important, if it's possible for children to feel that sense of, um, that sense of importance, that sense of priority from their parents.

I? I had an air of sort of loneliness as I read through the pages. This kind of lonely young girl who was searching to be recognized and loved, and to someone to sort of hold her hand and guide her through those early years. And other than in your grandmother's garden, with your grandmother, it it found like that place of home was never, was never really there.

Yeah, I definitely had it with my grandmother. Now, once she passed, that's when I took to the streets to, like, figure out finding my home, finding my tribe, finding my power, finding my identity, finding my purpose, finding my worth. Yeah, Your dad, Rob, hm, hm, yeah,

he, um, he took you for a walk one day and explained to you why he couldn't be your father.

he did. I was seven and um, he just said, he said, Look, I'm a I'm an addict and a criminal and I can't be your father. And I was like, now, mind you, he hadn't really been in my life that much anyway. I didn't really know he wasn't present in my in my life enough for me to even know what it was like to have a father. But what I did appreciate in that moment was like, Wow, just thank you, thank you for, like, being honest.

Now. I didn't realize at that time, cause I was so young, how that would affect my relationships with men ongoing. And, you know, as an adult woman, um, but yeah, in that moment, I was just like, Thank you, somebody is like, being honest with me, I'm not crazy. Something is absolutely not right here. And he's letting me know what that is, and he's saying, Hey, I'm gonna keep my distance, you know?

Ten years old, twelve, thirteen years old. What does Jada think she's gonna be when she grows up?

At ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, I, I definitely was like, I wanted to be an artist, definitely wanted to be an actress.

You wanted to be an actress,

Yeah, I did, I did, I wanted to be an actress. I started very young, I was doing theater. Um, I think my 1st professional gig was like, seven years old, as one of Madame Bon Bon's children in the Nutcracker. Um, and then I was in, you know, different theatrical programs in the summertime and what have you? And then the, uh. When I got the opportunity to join Twigs, which prepared you for the Baltimore School for the Arts, I joined that after school program.

So arts has always been a big part of my life,

do you know why? Cause? When I, as I read through those early years of your life, it seemed that acting was doing something. The the performance, the being on stage, the the validation, I think it was giving you, was doing something for you that it might not have done for someone else who hadn't walked the steps you had walked up until that point.

the validation, but also an outlet, it was a real outlet for me, where I was able to express certain feelings that I didn't feel like I had the permission to express at home. Um, and um, it was a huge, it was a huge outlet for me in that way. I mean, to the point that my theater teachers would often tell me, Um, you know, they'd try to steer me into, like, more, why? don't you try more comedic roles?

You know, I was always going for the very dramatic, very highly emotional, you know, uh, roles, um, and my, I just remember my theater teachers always trying to guide me into diversifying the monologues that I would choose. Uh, for for my pieces to work on in class.

I read, um, I read some books. I think one of them was called The Body Keeps the Score, which talks about the role that acting can play as sort of a therapy. And it's so. It seems to not be a coincidence that the amount of actors I've sat here and spoke with who have pretty, um, unthinkable early childhood experiences, domestic violence in the home, et cetera. That then find acting as an outlet for a form of escapism, almost escaping the identity, embodying a different role.

absolutely, totally agree, totally agree.

As I read it in your story, I was like, not another one.

Yes, another one. It's classic. Yeah,

And I. I reflect on some of the words you wrote in the early part of the book, where you're talking about your mother and your father. There being domestic violence in the home at an early age. Your mother running out of the house, dropping you on the floor because Rob had punched her, I believe your father had punched her. These are stories, I guess you've heard after the fact from your mother, but I guess you believe those moments leave a mark.

absolutely. I mean, my mother talks about it to this day and will choke up, she'll, you know, cry. It's like, it's, it's. You don't get over things in the sense of like, it's forgotten. You know, you learn to cope with it, you heal in a certain manner, but it still can leave a certain imprint upon you. Um, and even hearing those stories are not easy, you know, even as an adult. Because she didn't really give me the details until I was, I mean, my kids were daggone near adults.

Before she shared with me the level of violence that she dealt with with my dad.

Did it help you understand yourself? Did it help you connect dots?

I don't know if it helped me understand myself as much as it helped me understand my mother, and then that helped me understand a lot of how her journey has imprinted upon me in a certain manner. You know, so I guess it does, if you take, you know, through through my mother and her journey, it helped me understand her journey, which has affected me. So, yeah, I guess you could say that it helped me understand myself more.

I say that cause I start with, Um, you know, Gable, Mathe, Gable, Gable, Mathe

Yeah, I do. in the picture, Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yes,

he was the he's the person that opened my eyes to the fact that even the things that occurred when we are babies, we interpret them to mean, um, certain things about ourselves. And he says, babies are incredibly selfish. So, for example, if the parents are arguing, the baby will interpret that as reflection of them. And I think about the early context that I think I read about in your story, but also that appears in mine, and how I interpreted that to mean that I wasn't enough in some way.

Which is a real through line throughout your story.

yeah, for sure, uh. And I think that probably is probably more subconscious, unconscious than that which the abuse of drugs and how that reflected to me that I wasn't worthy in a certain manner. That why is it that this particular substance has more power over, you know, has more attention, more power, more influence than me? To the point that your father will tell you, I'm relinquishing my parental rights. Because I'd rather be a criminal and a drug addict than try to get my shit together.

For you is the way I interpreted that. And at the same time, was like, just thank you for being honest, instead of sitting up here, pretending like you're doing something different. Thank you, you know, which a lot of people would do.

Tony was he your? He was your, your mother's 1st part partner after Rob,

No, she, he was her 1st husband. 1st husband, okay, Yeah, after Rob,

and he seemed to be a pretty solid father he's a solid. Yeah, figure.

he was, he was indeed.

It's it. This guy comes into your life and plays the role of a father by all accounts. He seems to do a pretty good job and seems to love on you in a way that is sufficient for a child. But then he too vanishes out of your life, Makes a exit, makes an exit.

yeah, which I understand, you know, as an adult now, looking back and and looking at the circumstances, you know, he did the best that he could. He's a man that was trying to get his life together, and my mother was was deep in her addiction and

So addiction to.

heroin at that time. And so you, you can't, you can't negotiate with that, it's either you wanna get help, you know, um, or you have to. Sometimes you have to make clean breaks. I know that now as an adult, and you don't always know how to play the middle, you know, and so I get it.

What does that do to you? As a young, a young woman who's trying to figure out what, where safety is,

It's devastating, it's devastating. I mean, I completely abandoned feeling like I could depend on anyone, which is why I just took to the streets. I was like, you know what, I'm gonna figure out how to make money, gain power and create a situation where I can protect myself and my mother. And to make sure, just in case she doesn't make it, I'ma be okay.

you take to the streets? When you say take to the streets, what do you mean by that?

When I would see, you know, the high rollers, the hustlers, I was like, Oh, that's what I want, you know, I want to have the Mercedes, I wanna have big wads of cash in my pocket. I wanna have friends around me that will protect me, and I wanna be able to have security and stability created by my own hands. I don't wanna depend on anybody, not only do I not wanna depend on anybody, I can't depend on anyone.

And so the streets, that's where I saw security, because we didn't have doctors and lawyers, you know, to look upon, you know, like that's the aspiration, right? Because in our neighborhoods, that's what we had, we had hustlers, right? And they had the good life. So you could be a hustler, or you could be a hustler's girlfriend. I wasn't trying to be the girl, I wasn't trying to be the girlfriend, and so I'd look to to that lifestyle.

To offer me the security that I didn't have at home, as an opportunity for me to create that security that I didn't have at home.

Security, protection, safety. These are all words that appear over and over and over again in your book, I know, right, yeah, from childhood to adulthood. Those are the the

that was it.

most, the recurring words. And you, you found that security in part through a lifestyle of drug dealing yourself. Um, which again, I said to you before we started recording, Jada, that I knew of you as a Hollywood actress, you know, that's what I, that's what I knew of you of. I'm not someone that's hugely involved in media or TV or movies, so that's what I thought. I never in my life. I might have thought of you as the daughter of two, um, drug addicted parents who had chosen their addiction over you.

And I never knew that you started dealing drugs when you were very, very young. Were you? Were you not scared dealing drugs in Baltimore? And

you, you don't have time to be scared. That environment was a war zone, right? And so it's like stuff was popping off all the time. So you just get used to a certain level of violence, you get used to a certain level of, um, just vigilance, because that's what you're given, so you just learn to adapt to that kind of environment. So the levels, what? What somebody might consider dangerous for me was just normal. It wasn't like, ooh, I'm going into something crazy here, you know?

It's like, Well, shit, everything's crazy, so what, right? So I look at it now and I go, what in the world, you know? But I have a I'm living a different reality. And that time when I was living that reality, that's what life was and everybody, that's what we were all living.

was there moments that were wake up calls Hell, yeah, when you were dealing drugs?

listen, getting two 9 mm pointed at you at one time, one to your head, that's a that that you would think that's a big wake up call.

Jada, we don't all know what 9 mm is.

Oh, you know, I guns, you know, it's two big guns, you know,

When did that happen?

Glocks. Um, I had to be 17, 17, 17 years old, because that was my senior year of high school.

And what? What was the reason that someone pointed two guns at your head?

I was, I had, uh, posted up in this in the projects, in this apartment on the bottom floor, where I would sell drugs out of the window or through the door of that particular apartment. And somebody set me up to make a long story short, somebody set me up. And um, as I was making the exchange through the door that had the chain on it. Two guys from the side of the door, which I couldn't see, cause I'm looking through the peephole, two guys from the side of the door.

Come around and kick the door in and pull out guns, point them to me and take all my money, my jewelry and stash. And I was really lucky to make it out of that alive, for sure, because the person who led that robbery ended up killing two drug dealers. Um, two weeks or a month after, put him in a, uh, put him in a trunk, shot the trunk up and, uh, murdered two guys. And um, he ended up doing life for that.

But, uh, I could tell as he was leaving, you know you? It's so interesting when you're in moments like that. I can still see his eyes as he's leaving me and how he's making a choice in the moment of what he's gonna do with me. And by the grace of God, he left me there.

Why?

Well, when, and of course, I, you know, my crazy self, because of who, because of the protection that I was under at the time. I called that person. I was like, I just got robbed. He knew exactly, he knew exactly. He's like, I know who this is, don't worry about anything. Um, I was like, I want my shit back, and so we actually, um, that person whose wing I was under. He made for a meeting for us to meet in that area.

A couple of days later, he was like, you're not gonna get your money back, you're not gonna get the drugs back. But maybe there might be some pieces of jewelry of yours that he'll, you know, he hasn't sold yet. And that's. He was exactly right. He had, you know, a couple chains or whatever. And I told, I asked him, I said, You know, why'd you just leave me there? like? and he said, You were too pretty.

And that was the 1st time, and I talk about this in the book. That was the 1st time that I was like, Well, maybe I am pretty, because I was like, maybe I am pretty. Because, you know, he cause this. This was a stone cold killer, and I talk about even when I met him, how he looked like he. He had never felt any kind of love in his life. And I'm just, I. I don't know what kind of crazy nut I was at that time, I was just so.

All I could say is just out of my mind, like I was just in such an alter reality. I, I. I really thought I was gonna be the next Queen Pen 1st of all,

Again? A lot of people don't know what Queen Pen is. Jada

yeah, well, you know, I thought I was gonna be the next, you know, like, big time female drug dealer, you know, and I really had I. I was I. I was crazy. I absolutely was just a nut because I had no fear whatsoever. I was absolutely fearless to be rolling with these wolves like this. And like, it was nothing like, it was absolutely nothing. I think about that today, I think about my daughter, I'm like, what the like?

I don't know all I can, and that's when I know, and I think back on everything that I've been through. I was like, there is a God for sure, there is a God. Cause that dude, for me to even wanna see his face again, was like, I want my shit back. And he had it, he had it for me. He was like, there you go, you know? And so, um, but it prepared me for Hollywood, it prepared me, it prepared me big time, How it prepared me in a way because I was running with killers.

That's it's as simple as that, right? So the Hollywood flex, you know, dudes who were presenting themselves as like these powerful, you know, if you don't do what I say, like, Bruh, honestly, it, it, it just didn't resonate that way for me. I just looked at it, I looked at all of that as just kinda like puppy play.

it didn't resonate with you? But from the words you describe in your book about how you were received in Hollywood, it appears that Hol you didn't resonate with Hollywood either.

Yeah, for a while I did not. Yeah, for a minute,

This rough around the edges,

rough around the edges, yeah, because I mean it. It was part of what was refreshing for a lot of people, but it was also the thing that was standoffish, too, right?

what is that?

Um, I think just that, that edge that I came with, that no, you know, having no fucks to give. Basically, it was just like, I'm here to do me what, you know, and I got something to offer. And if you can't see it, well, then that's on you, your loss, you know, just that kind of attitude and just kinda like, you know, I wasn't your prim proper, uh, demure young lady, you know? I was just kinda like, I was just rough, rugged and rambunctious.

It's interesting, isn't it? In life, how a certain type of demeanor or attitude or mindset can help us to survive and thrive in one context. But sometimes we need to figure out how to turn that shit off.

And that's what I had to learn to do.

Cause you weren't in survival anymore.

I wasn't in survival anymore, you know, and I talk about this in the book, you know how Warren Beatty, bless him, he was probably one of the 1st people that was just like, Hey, you're in Hollywood now. Hey, I get it, but why don't you allow people to see some other aspects? That charm you have, that smile you have? Like, let's take that, let's take that chip off your shoulder a little bit, you know? And he was the 1st person really to talk to me in a way that wasn't like making me wrong, right?

He didn't make me wrong for being who I was. He was just like, there's so much more to you, let people see that, you know? And that was the 1st time I actually listened, cause he didn't make me wrong. And I bet you, Warren has no idea that how, how much that conversation and the time that he spent with me really meant to me. It was really awesome because he was, he was so respectful and he really honored where I sat and where.

But you, you didn't get that often in Hollywood. It was just like, No, you gotta change this, you gotta do this different, you, you'll never get jobs like that. I was just like, Well, then I won't work, cause, you know, I was very rebellious sometimes in that way. Um, but yeah, he really, that really stuck with me. And from that day on, I just started on the journey of trying to figure out how to not lose myself.

But also feel, find a way to feel safe to take that approach. Because, like I said, I was around wolves all the time, so I had to always be on guard. I had to always have this tough exterior, I always had to carry the attitude like, I'm not the one you don't wanna come over here.

It's interesting, cause when you putting up such a barrier to defend yourself, um, can often make us quite hard to form connection. And and the reason I pause there is cause I'm thinking about what you said in the book. After Tony left you, who was your mother's new husband? He left abruptly, abruptly after playing the role of of a father. And you said the line about, um, the rejection was brutal, something broke inside me, my grief was oceanic.

I put a on a li, I put it on a library shelf labeled Unlovable, and I tried to leave it there. That's an another word that comes up over and over again, this word unlovable, unlovable. And it's funny, cause when people are, when they feel unlovable themselves, they do often put up these walls, which make them. It's almost like self fulfilling, it's, you know, and that's the essence of what I felt in Jada. When she arrives in Hollywood as this person who's got this sort of little bit of a tough exterior.

But not because, not because she's not, you know,

Yeah, not because, uh, you know, it was really just it was. It was so many things I was trying to protect.

it was defense, not offense, would I say, Yeah,

yeah, it was. And and I still to this day, you know, people like, you know, I still to this day have to like, manage that. Because it's just it's just in me, it's just part of me. It's something because it was such a um, it was, you know it. It was something that was built at the foundation, you know, it's in my DNA.

default, isn't it?

It's, yeah, it's my default. So it's like, and I, I do it well, I can, just you won't know anything that's going on. But like you said, it's like, well, then you don't give yourself an opportunity to make the connections that you really wanna have.

And you're gonna be misunderstood.

Stood, Yeah, all the time, which that is like, that has been my life, too, just misunderstood

Another thing I learned from reading the book, which is gonna shock you, that I didn't know. But this shows how little I am tuned into media and Hollywood

good for you.

and all that is your relationship with Tupac. He comes over, introduces himself.

yeah. 1st day of school, Baltimore School for the Arts. And um, I. As soon as I walk in, he's holding court, he's holding court, he's a C, like he's a charismatic from day one, he's holding court. And I'm like, who's who's that peanut head dude over there, you know? And I'm coming in, I'm rocking, you know, I'm Jada, I'm walking in. I got the rat tail, I got the fly clothes, you know. And he turns and we our eyes just meet and I'm like, Oh, and then, you know, I, I'm, I'm gonna hold my court, you know what I'm saying?

And so then he comes over, you know, I'm my, and I'm like, Oh, okay, cool, yeah, whatever. And so he comes over and he's like, Hey, I'm Tupac, and I'm like, Tupac. The name from the gate was just like, I never heard a name like that before. It was such a powerful, different name, and I was like, Tupac. And he had this big smile and I was like, it's not a lot of people that have that kind of like charisma and courage to just walk up on me.

On, just like, I'm Tupac, I'm, you know what I mean, you need to know me, you know? And from the f, right, from there, inseparable. We became the best of friends from that moment on, we just connected. It was as if we already knew each other. It's crazy,

P. People will find it hard to believe that at that age, in that environment, it wasn't a romantic thing.

I know people have had a really hard time, you know, understanding that Pac, and I had a hard time understanding why it just didn't. We didn't have it. And I talk about in the book, you know, that being on the back porch of my house and we're like, having this discussion, I'm like, Okay, Pac, just kiss me, and he kisses me, and it's the most disgusting kiss between us both. I mean, he pulled back, just like, and I pulled back, and I was like, See, dummy, you know?

And from there, it was just like, and then there was one more time he kissed me and it was just like, and I talk about that in in jail. When I go to see him in Danamora, that's a whole nother thing. And once again, it's just like, dude doesn't work. But throughout our relationship, we definitely had this beautiful closeness that was really intimate, but never physically intimate. Lot of emotional intimacy, a lot of, um, intellectual intimacy.

Um, we just knew how to reach each other in ways that was very difficult. We knew how to get around each other's walls. And we didn't get offended when we would fall into our defaults of defense, which could be pretty fierce between the two of us. He was quite, uh, a powerhouse, and so was I. We could be very challenging when we got riled up, so arguments, we were very passionate. But because we were one and the same in that way, we kinda understood that language, like, Oh, this joke, you know what I mean?

So we didn't get offended a lot until one particular time, which comes later in the book.

Yeah, when you come from the same place, or you know the origin stories, you don't have that misunderstood thing to talk about, cause you understand I just understood him, context.

I just understood him, and he understood me, he really got me, and he really knew how to pull my coattails in ways that a lot of people didn't, and same for me with him. I just knew how to reach him in ways that, and and that had everything to. And I think because we didn't have that kind of, I think sometimes physical intimacy can really get in the way, you know? Um, and I think that God just made it that way, in which God was like, No, no, no, I need you to to be I.

I, I got a plan, so that's not part of the plan.

Did you know? Did you, in your heart of hearts, know that Tupac was going to go on to do what he did?

I knew he was gonna go to do something. I did not know he would become the Tupac we know him to be, but I knew he was gonna do something great.

In hindsight, when you look back at who he was, the character traits, the ingredients that were within him, why did he go on to do what he did? What was it about him?

He wore his heart on his sleeve and he could join you, and so what I mean by joining you is that he's not talking at you, he's talking with you. He had a way of being able to speak about subject matters that he's gonna sit with you in your broken heart and speak to you from there. Because he knows that broken heart, he's lived that broken heart. So, and whether it's your broken heart, whether it's your rage.

But he just knew how to penetrate those emotional spaces in people, and that's what I mean by joining you. He knew how to join you emotionally in so many different verticals of emotion. You know, he was supremely intelligent as well, he was so authentic also, and so raw that I think that was really refreshing as well. He gave you him and he was unapologetic. So he's gonna give you his intelligence, he's gonna give you his fear, he's gonna give you his pain, he's gonna give you his anger, you know, he's gonna give you his sympathy, he's gonna give you his understanding, right?

But it was coming from that, that heart space, that that that real space within. It wasn't a gimmick, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm gonna talk about this because this is what's hot. No, you know, right, wrong or indifferent. He gave you his truth, and some truths people could rock with with them, and some truths you couldn't. You know what I mean? And um, but regardless, it was what was real for him at that time, he was always authentic.

But it's not easy. It comes with a cost, right?

It comes with a cost.

Because it's almost the opposite of conformity, in a way, authenticity.

Yeah, exactly. And he was a rebel in that way. And I think people really, uh, at at at points in his career, you know, he could speak, he would speak for the community, and then at points of his career, he would speak from that. That really intimate place of woundedness. Dear mama, Yeah, you know, there's so many of us related to nobody was speaking to us in that way. That could. That could go from ambitions of a writer to shed so many tears to a soldier's story.

Come on, come on, you know, to, I mean, he had, so he could speak to us from so many different angles.

that is just the evidence of authenticity, isn't it? Because people are multifaceted in their nature, no one is just ambition or a high life. We are all all the shades,

or all the shades, right?

but rap rap music, especially back then, was very narrowing. It was like, this is how to be a rapper, so someone willing to be authentic. It's funny, I've seen this over and over again. They they are the most resonant people in the world because they represent us in a way that a lot of others aren't brave enough to represent us. And that's also what vulnerability does. That's what you do as well in this book, well, thank you, because because you're willing to lay it all out.

We can relate to many people, will be able to relate to many parts of you. And you know, without books like this, we get narrow views, and those narrow views, I mean, those are crafted by other people, and they're the least relatable. Now

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It was right.

yeah, and we're all so multi dimensional.

You move to LA. you're working three jobs, you start trying to climb into the ladder of Hollywood. Um, at this point, you you meet a certain fresh prince, Yeah, the Savior Prince, the Savior Prince. And I was quite shocked by. I think of, I think of Will Smith, I think charismatic, he's a good looking guy. You didn't seem to think that when

no, no, not at 1st. Yeah,

what did you think at 1st?

I mean, he was the fresh prince. I was like, Okay, he's cool, you know? But I was like, not, not, not the guy for me, you know,

Why was he too soft?

I wouldn't say he, I wouldn't say soft, I would just say that he didn't seem deep. And I talk about this in the book, how at that time a troubled dude seemed deep to me versus just troubled. It's like, stay away from the troubles, right? And so he wasn't troubled, it didn't seem to be right, and so I was like, that's not deep. Like, he just seems like, you know, just didn't draw me in that way.

You don't feel the same way anymore, though, do you? About the TR, the, uh, the deep parts, the Oh, no, he's actually, the troubled part, I think I read this book.

yeah, yeah. Don't judge a book by its cover, that that's, that's what Will Smith told taught me. It was like, not to judge a book by its cover. And I learned that, you know, years later, when we had an opportunity to have, you know, we had a mutual friend. And so we were able to share some time at Jerry's Deli over a meal. And I got to see a totally different side of him. Dwayne Dwayne Martin Yeah,

you went to that Jacket potato place.

yeah, the baked potato. hm hm.

Yeah, what was it about? What did you see in Will that night? I found it really interesting because one of the things that you described seeing in him was someone who quite was quite adamant in taking over the world.

Yeah. He was so ambitious, you know, and in such a beautiful way. He had big dreams, big dreams, and um, and he was so joyful, he was really joyful, but grounded, and that was the part that I missed, he was grounded. It was like he'd been through some things and he was really intelligent. So he's what you call, you know, he could go from the hood to the White House and everywhere in between, right? And I always find people like that fascinating, that have a wide range within them, places that they can go.

You know, you drop Will anywhere and he's gonna figure it out and fit in.

He'd asked you to be his on screen girlfriend, hadn't he?

He, Okay, yeah. So I auditioned for Fresh Prince. I think it was the 2nd year to play one of his girlfriends. And they were like, you're too short. I was like, all right, cool, right? And so that was the 1st time that I actually met Will. I came out of the the casting and he was, you know, coming into the casting office or about to leave or something. And he was like, Hey, and I was like, Yeah, what's up, you know?

I was like, no need to talk to me. They already said, I'm I'm short, you know, so I'm on my way. And then, and I think I, I think I was probably about 20. Um, and he wanted, he, he wanted me to play his, you know, his girlfriend as a series regular. So he flew in to North Carolina to meet me and I was like, Nah, I'm gonna do movies now. And he was like, all right, cool.

That's a that's a bold, that's a big rejection to reject the fresh Prince of Bel Air. When he says you can be his sort of recurring on screen girlfriend in a hit show, and you say TV's not for me, I'm gonna focus on movies. Big call

Well, I had just done it, I'd just come off of a different world, and I knew like I had the protection of Debbie Allen on a different world, right? And so when I wanted to make moves, Debbie was there to help me. That's not to say that I would have that same assistance on Fresh Prince. And at that time, they locked you in, you couldn't do anything. You know what I mean, they have you for six years, they got you locked and I.

I just didn't wanna be locked like that, and so I really wanted to try my hand at doing movies. And then Dwayne Martin, when I turned Will down, Dwayne Martin got on me, cause he felt the same way you did. It was just like, it's financial security, how could you let something like this go? And you know, who's to say when your next starring Mo, you know, role is gonna come in? And blah blah.

And I was like, But I'm so glad that I didn't take that role, cause I tell you what if I had taken that role. Will and I would not have been married, and I wouldn't have had Jane and Willow and Ben Trey's bonus mom. My life would've been totally different. you sure I'm positive, Yeah,

as in, you're sure that you positive, wouldn't have gotten married

I'm positive.

because you would've seen the red, you would've seen the red flags,

uh, listen, no, yeah, no.

right? Earthquakes are hard to predict. Sometimes you feel tremors ahead of time, often they come on suddenly. And in your early 20s, you had your 1st, maybe not even your 1st. But what you describe in the book as your 1st breakdown, personal earthquake, when you're driving down the street one day. Mental health and psychiatry have come a long way since then. Um, I, I. I would guess that at the time, many people wouldn't have been able to tell you what that was.

I had no idea what was going on. Me just thinking about that moment, just it's like, Um, I was so overwhelmed, you know? And I was like, I, I didn't know what was going on with me. And it came over me in an instant. I was fine. One moment, I'm turning my car around to meet a friend on the corner that, you know, I saw to say and to say hello to her. And all of a sudden, my body's shaking, all these emotions come over me and I, I'm like, I'm starting to.

It's like waterfall of like tears, and I, I'm like, and I have no idea, like my brain is not catching up to what is happening with my body. All I know is that this waterfall, this volcano of emotions. It was fear, anger, despair. And I was like, I, I got. And she was looking at me, like, Are you okay? and I was like, I, I don't know, I, you know. And I get in the car and I'm trying to drive and I'm like, you can't drive, pull over, and then I pull over.

And then I just remember feeling terrified to just let it go, and I let it go. And then I'm like, I wanna die, I wanna die. And I remember making it home and all I could do was call my mother and say, you gotta come here, I'm gonna kill myself, you know? And I think about that, and I'm just like, Wow. And my mother was like, she was maybe a year into her sobriety, right? And what a terrifying call to get, like, if I get that call from Willow or Jada or Trey, I'm just, you know, it's like, and um, so she's figuring out because she just started a job at this hospital.

I'm so terrified to be by myself. I call my homegirl Mc Lyte and I tell her, I was like, you gotta come out here. I'm afraid to be alone by myself, I'm gonna do something to myself. And she flies out and so she holds me down until my mother comes. It's a crazy moment.

Have you figured out what, what your body was telling you?

I think my body was telling me that, I think my mind was telling me, Hey, we have some things we gotta pay attention to up here. Enough with let's keep it moving, I'm gonna make it so you're not gonna just be able to keep it moving anymore. You have some things that you gotta pay attention to, some things that need to be addressed. And at the time, like you were just talking about, nobody was talking about mental health at all, and specifically, mental health was considered like a white people thing, Black people don't have mental health issues, right?

And so suicide, for sure, was a white people thing. So I was real confused, I, I felt, really, I felt like something is is has gone really, really, really wrong here. Because nobody else like me feels like this, nobody knows what's going on, and maybe I'm losing my mind, I'm actually going crazy, you know? So it was a scary time.

When I read about that, it sounded to me like you had been, you'd been playing defense for just a little bit too long.

Yeah, for sure, for sure,

And that's, I guess, one of the costs of the the toughness, right? The like, as you say, we'll just keep it moving, we just keep we'll just keep it moving. it moving. Yeah, No piece of me, and are they?

no, it's gonna catch you. You can deal with it, or it will deal with you. Those are your choi, those are your two choices.

But you, you did keep it moving, even in that moment, it seemed, it seemed like you, you carried on with the work. Um, I think you were, you were recommended to go and see a psychiatrist, right?

went to see a psychiatrist, they put me on um, Prozac, and I, I started therapy. I started therapy.

But it does still appear that you kept it moving because you, you kept working. You didn't seem to wanna show anybody outside of your sort of inner circle. Hell, no, Why?

absolutely not, because that's what we do. We keep it moving, right? And so I was like, I got the help that I need. I got a doctor and I'm on Prozac. Yeah, Just like right. So I'm like, plaster over Okay, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and I can't let anybody know. And we're gonna keep this moving because that's what we do.

plaster over cracks.

Yeah, we just, yeah. At that time, I'm gonna take a break because, you know, I'm having, I'm depressed. What? At that time, that seemed absolutely ridiculous.

Do you go back to Baltimore?

I did, I went back to Baltimore, um, and cause I was going to continue working, but not live in L. A. anymore. And so I bought a farmhouse, I bought a little farmhouse on. I wanna say it was about six acres, might six or nine acres, if I remember correctly, and it was, um, I was gonna build a life there for myself in a little quiet corner. And, you know, I was like, all right, I'll. If I need to audition, I'll either go to New York or I can just fly back and forth from L.

A.

I heard Will was trying to hit you up at this, this point in your life.

Yeah, he hit me up, he had just Sheree had just sent him divorce papers, and um, he decides to call me. And of course, me not knowing anything about marriage, thinking that marriage, you know, breakup over marriage is like breaking up with a boyfriend. He's like, you know, um, where are you? And I'm like, I'm in Baltimore, you know, renovating my house. And he's like, Are you seeing anybody? And I'm like, No, he's like, Good, you're seeing me now.

And I was like, What? Once again, that kind of bold, you know, approach. I was just like, Oh, clutch my pearls a little bit. So he was like, you know, call me when you get back to L. A. So when I got back to L. A. I called him and we went out on our first date.

In and around that time, Pac had been sentenced to Rikers, right? He'd been senten sent to jail for

He'd been sent to at that point in time, he was at Rikers, but then he was on his way to Dannemora.

which is a horrific place where they send terrorists usually. I think the nine eleven, some of the people that were involved with nine eleven or the World Trade Center bombings were sent to Dannemora. Um, while he's in jail,

while he's in jail, what do you have here? Oh yeah, now, as I slip from grace and the world has turned against me. A few claim to have loved for me, but once again, you show your love. After deep reflection and spiritual awakening, I have come to realize the friend, love and soulmate was there all the time. I have not seen or felt from anywhere or anyone, the intensity and loyalty that you have shown me. That is why I wanna commit myself to you, I wanna marry you.

he sends you that letter,

Yeah, I. It's much longer letter than that, but that's the words that I put in the book.

a marriage proposal.

That's why he was in Rikers when I went to go see him in Rikers, and Rikers is actually that's a really. Dannemora might be where they put terrorists. Rikers is like, I remember going to see him there, and um, he was in such bad shape, you know? And um, I Rikers I like, Yeah, Rikers was bad. Dannemora, yeah, terrorists are there, but far more humane conditions than I would say Rikers.

It feels it feels like the emotion is still right on the surface with you. When you think back to these these moments in your life,

Oh, yeah, it. It feels like I've just came back from seeing Pac at Rikers and I had to leave him there. It's just like yesterday. But I'm also in a very raw place in my life right now as I'm thawing out, as I'm dismantling my defenses, you know, I call it the thaw out. So I'm, I'm in a really raw place.

obviously Pac was. He gets out of jail and Suge Knight, I mean, talking about timing, I think it was like a week ago or two weeks ago that someone's been convicted for Tupac's murder. A lot of emotions. How did you feel when you heard about the UM conviction? Or that somebody that arrested? Uh, an arrest had been made

um, I was like, I, I was glad that an arrest had been made. This is was someone who we had known had been in the car. He, he had had done some street interviews about it, you know, um, and I was just hoping. I was like, Well, I hope they're bringing him in because we're gonna get some other questions answered. So, you know, my hope is that we'll get more questions answered.

in the book? You question, but then you confirm that pack. Tupac knew how you felt about him when he passed away because you and him hadn't been speaking. And I think there's a really important lesson in in this for all of us.

yeah, yeah, we had a we had a huge fight, huge. It was one of the biggest fights we had ever had. And um, and it was about how he had been living, you know? And, uh, I really at that time, you know, really had to let him know my position that I just felt like, you know, where he was sitting with everything was just. It wasn't gonna end up well, right? And we had a magnanimous. I mean, it was just beyond the two of us just at each other.

Um, and I was just like, fuck that, I'm not calling him this time, he's gonna have to call me. He was way out of line, so I really dug my hills heels in the ground in regards to like, nah, you know, I let my pride, I let my ego come in. I really took for granted that he would be living forever, like he had already survived so much like it never, like I never. I. I looked at Pac as being invincible at this point, you know, cause he survived so much, even so much that people don't know about, you know, um, but just like I say in the book, I'm like, man, don't do it, don't do it, don't, don't,

don't hold on to like that prideful part of yourself, you know, with someone you really care about. Like, No, I mean, you know, he's gonna have to call me. You know, it's like, Nope,

Was that the last time you spoke to him?

that was the last time I spoke to him, that was the last time I spoke to him, that was the last time I spoke to him. And you know what's crazy? It meant absolutely nothing, it meant absolutely nothing. And so that's the test I always have. I'm like, Okay, you're in this beef with somebody. Will this beef matter on your deathbed? And then right away, I'm like, Nope, let me give him a call, you know what I'm saying, that's my, that's my test.

Almost a year later, he gets shot in Las Vegas. You get a phone call while you're filming on set that he's from, I believe, from his mother, um, Phoenix, Shakura, and saying that he's in hospital in a coma. And a few days after that, you find out that he's passed away.

Yeah, I was on my way, you know, Faye was like, No rush, he's gonna be fine. Um, he had his fiancee there with him and his family.

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Um, she was like, So, you know, come after your trip in New York, so I was on my way to him. And my girlfriend Fawne came to the door and she, I. I knew as soon as I saw her face that he was gone. Oh, I know that picture. Yep, that was Thanksgiving. He came to L. A. to spend Thanksgiving with me, and we were at one of my friend's house.

You look like brother and sister.

Yeah, we look like brother and sister because that's what we were. Yeah, he came to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving with me.

We talked about mental health earlier. Do you do you know how to grieve someone? The loss of someone like like that in your life?

No, I'm still, I'm still, um, working out my relationship with grief. Actually, yeah, I haven't, I haven't really. I. I. Yeah, I'm still working that out.

Because this chapter of your life was loss

Unmourned loss.

chapter twelve of your book. I've got this other picture that I found that I thought was, um, relevant.

Now you do, you know why this is relevant?

I do. Maxine and and Tupac are both In the same in that picture.

picture? Yeah, do you have a tissue? Thanks. You get nice hugs. Um, yeah, that's a sorry. Yeah, I, um, I lost Maxine and Pac back to back. So I'd like to, you know, this picture to be flanked by them.

Yeah, I lost them back to back.

Maxine was a good friend of yours. Um, Pac was your brother.

Yeah, and she was like, my sister, you know, she, um, I met Maxine on Jason's lyric. And, uh, we became like, super tight. And she lived in Canada, and so she wanted to come to Hollywood and make a career for herself. So I told her that she could come live with me, so she came to to live with me. Um, she, we, we feel as though she, um, had a misdiagnosis. She had some kind of thyroid disorder that really, um, disrupted her psyche.

And, uh, she ended up jumping off her mother's balcony and committed. She committed suicide. Um, so that was really tough,

It seems it seems unimaginable that that chapter and season of your life could be filled with so much loss and so much complicated loss, you know? Because in all of these situations, as you write about in the book, there are reflections where you, you say in the book, if I, you know, you're left with this feeling. If I'd done this, I could. Maybe I should have done it like this, or I wish I'd treat that situation differently.

In hindsight, as we know, is a wonderful thing, isn't it, you know? And I've sat here with a lot of people that have lost a lot of people by by suicide, and they all have the same reflections. They all have that last phone call with the person where they had to put up a boundary. And you know, I've sat here, even in LA. in that chair with. I remember Boz, um, her, her partner at the time, calling and saying, Listen, if you don't come and do this, I'll jump off this bridge.

And then he does. And

yeah, it's like that existential disappointment of just life being what it is. It's like grieving, that grieving. It's like she in a. She went from this like happy person and like having this condition that just right. And so I just sometimes I just go. This is when I just have to, like, reconcile with God. Hm, it's like, Wow, God, like you really be doing some stuff like, you know what I mean, and it's like, and sometimes I get in grief around what life is.

And then I have to make peace with it,

feels, if, if, we think about your story, it feels confusing that God could seemingly hand someone so much, you know, wonderful career, wonderful family, all of those things. But at the same time, and maybe maybe there's a relationship, maybe there's a relationship between the two. Because had you not had the had you not come from where you came from, maybe you wouldn't have had all the wonderful things that you have. But also had you not come from where you came from, maybe you wouldn't have experienced all the loss that you've experienced.

So maybe there's a relationship between the two, because I've not experienced that loss, but I don't come from where you come from. So I didn't lose friends growing up, I didn't lose friends in in in my twenties either. Um,

Having all the different experiences that I've had, as painful as some of them are, it gives me the opportunity to join people in a certain manner, you know, in in really powerful places, you know, like I have a beautiful friendship with, um, Lauren London, and she is the widow of Nipsey Hussle. And because of the loss that I went through with Pac, I could reach out to her and I could go. Hey, anytime you need anything, anytime you need to talk, I'm here.

And Lawrence, quite like me defenses, you know what I mean? But I just kept walking closer and closer. And I just say all that to say that we've been able to meet each other in a certain place because of the type of losses we've had. That can really create beautiful connection. You feel me,

hm, I feel you.

yeah, so there are blessings in pain. You just gotta, you just gotta know that to be true and wait for that door to open, you know? And that's just one, one tiny example of, like, the blessings that I've found in a lot of the loss that I've had in my life in general. You know,

There's almost a an irony or a paradox in the fact that your pain caused a disconnection, but then the pain caused connection.

deep, because heartbreak, there's this beautiful scene in heartbreak, which is like, it breaks you open, breaks you open. And you got two places that you can go. You can go into the deep wells of darkness, or you can go into the deep wells of light. And I've been to both, and I've learned I ain't trying to be over here no more. You know what I mean? And so I always use heartbreak, discontent, pain to help me search for bright light and beautiful blessings within them.

In the opener of the book, you, you describe in the prologue, the life that the world would have seen in over the next sort of ten years of your life before you're, before you turn forty. You describe the, you know, your super successful Hollywood actress, you've got this husband who is, you know, Will Smith, and he's a super successful Hollywood. A actor. You've got these kids, you've got the family, you got the house, you got it all.

Externally, you're killing the game, so internally you must be killing the game.

right, internally, you know, I was spiritually bankrupt, right?

I I find it so, I find it so interesting hearing you describe the relationship that both you and Will had as it relates to conflict resolution. I find it so interesting, cause I've come to learn over the last couple of years that the way we deal with conflict predicts the long term health of our relationships. oh God, yeah, And I think there's this professor called Professor, I think it's called Professor John Gottman, who studied couples and tried to figure out why they end up in divorce.

And he says the number one reason is because they build contempt. attempt And that that's all about conflict resolution, how you're that is, dealing with your bullshit. Now you remind me of my partner because she wants connection, she wants to talk, she wants to resolve things, she's, you know, she wants to deal with the emotions. I would like to not. I will buy you something to make sure that you're safe. I'll pay for your stuff, but I just wanna work and I, and that's the way you describe Will.

Yeah, and so I resonated with Will in in that. But I, I, you sharing how you felt throughout that story helped me to understand my partner and all the conversations she's had with me about what she actually wants from me. And me misunderstanding her because we have different love languages, and your love language starts when you're a kid, right?

yeah, for sure.

And Will's does, too. What was that conflict of your love languages?

Wills, you know, was very much like yours. It's like, Mm-mm. I wanna work, I'm gonna work hard so that you can have everything in the world that you'd ever want. You know, I'm, you're not gonna need for anything, right? And my love language was like, but I just want you to be here with me. I don't need all of that stuff. I wanna look in your eyes and, you know, feel your love and feel your protection here with me.

And you know, it was like that connection. I wanted to feel like I wanted to make a masterpiece out of our connection, you know? And he wanted to make a masterpiece out of, you know, the the the life itself, right? And neither is wrong, neither is wrong. And that's what I had to learn. That that that's where we we've come to now. And understanding neither one of those wants are wrong. How do you balance them? Cause it can't be one or the other.

How do we balance it? Like yin and yang, everything about life is balance. So I just want you to know that

What are you talking to me?

yeah, I just, I just want you to know that. Because in in as couples, we get into these power struggles. No, my way is right. No, my way is right. Well, if you didn't have this, you know, you know, it gets into all of that, right? And it's like, stop, it's not about anybody being right or wrong. How do you get the balance of it? That's it right. And so, yeah, it took Will and I three decades.

Exactly? I remember that guy's name.

Yeah, three decades, okay, three decades. That's what we'll get to, that we'll get you. It doesn't Plain have to be that, you know, it's like, do it now.

Cause that's that's what I've said to my girlfriend is, I've told her that I've got this opportunity now because things are going well in my career. So I just wanna focus for now. And then we're gonna have all of our lives together. I actually said that to him one day and she reminded me of it a week later when we were arguing. I was like, we're gonna have all of our lives together. So like, we'll connect later,

yeah, we'll connect later. It's like, what kind of foolishness is that, you know what I mean? And I'm gonna tell you like this. I bet you when you're on your deathbed, you're not gonna think about whatever it is you're trying to accomplish and achieve. What do you think you're gonna think about most when you're on your deathbed? How you were loved and how you loved? No,

100%. okay, why And even as I said it, I thought about Tupac and how you never know how long you've got left with someone.

don't know? Why would you ever wanna wait and put that off?

It's an excuse, though, isn't it, It is an excuse, to justify

for sure.

my own toxic workaholism?

Well, you know, I wouldn't call it toxic. I'm, I'm. I'm always careful with this word toxic that we're throwing around, right? Cause we're all so wounded and it's not listen. When intimacy makes us have to look at our shit, right? It's easy to go. I piss you off. I got you this diamond ring, I got you this, you know, beautiful bag. I'm gonna take you on this trip. It's like, right, but like real emotional intimacy, we gotta, we gotta deal with our stuff.

A lot of stuff comes up there, but that's where that's where connection and love and true happiness, true fulfillment is. What's going on in our inner landscape?

you talk of this loss of identity when you married. Will, and this is quote I wrote down. It feels like I can't grasp my own journey. At times I feel resentful and angry. I don't know what to do about it. You and Will had these two sort of different visions for happiness in your lives together. His being that he wanted to take over the world as a global, you know, movie star, all the things that he is.

Um, and within that, you start to lose yourself a little bit, it seems. This word resentful, very interesting word. Can you give color to that word? Why you? why you chose to use that word?

cause it's true, you know? It was like I felt as though at that time, all right, if, if I mean, I, I wanna help you do all of those things. I'm here to help you with that, right? Um, and I'm like, and in return, I should get a bit of what I want, which is connection, right? And so you just for me, just giving and giving and giving and giving and giving and forgiving, forgetting, well, not even forgetting, not realizing that I was abandoning myself.

In the hopes that if I just keep pouring into this, if I just keep pouring into him, if I keep pouring into his dream, I'm gonna eventually get what I want, right? And that's a false idea in so many ways, right? But I, and so many of us do that. If Will looked back and was trying to give me whatever the hell it was I was asking for, it it wouldn't. He wouldn't have been able to accomplish it anyway.

Because if I'm not connected to myself, if I don't have a good relationship with me, there's nothing he can do. So I was gonna be asked out anyway, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, that's part of the journey. There's no right or wrong. Everybody's always trying to find the good guy or bad guy in people's stories. There's no good guys or bad guys. We're all wounded, trying to figure this shit out, you know? And so it took me a long time to realize it is not his responsibility to make you happy.

He can't. It's impossible, but it took me forever. Hard-headed, stubborn, you know, because that romantic idea, and that's why I talk about checking the boxes. It's like, I did everything I was supposed to do. You get to have your dream. How come I'm not having mine? And that's because Will was doing what he wanted to do. He's making himself happy He was making himself happy.

and he says that to you, doesn't he? He says you when you separate, he says he wants you to go, and He's like, go, go, go make yourself happy.

go make yourself happy.

And how did you receive that?

Not well, not well, because, you know, there can be truth, but you know what I'm saying, it's like, how we, you know, I think it was very true. But I think at that particular point in time, I was just still really resentful. I'm just like, you know, oh so, I helped you get your happiness. Now you just go, you know, throw me to the curb. And you know, I gotta do it all on my own now, you know, but that's the truth.

I had to do it on my own, you know, just like he did. You gotta do it on your own, you gotta do it on your own, you gotta do it on your own. And a lot of that's what this this is about. And me detoxing from needing fulfillment and validation outside of myself, detoxing from needing it from Will, my marriage, my family, a career. Like I had to get to the bare bones of Jada and walk.

What I call the exile lands, and those exile lands are going into the crevices of, you know, those places within that were holding me back from myself. All the fears, all of the false information and false ideas of what life is and what a marriage is supposed to be. And you know, who I was supposed to be, what a wife is like, all of it. Perfectionism, Perfectionism. And then I just went off to be completely imperfect and took joy in that.

cause being in Hollywood, I mean, this is a place that values the appearance of perfectionism. I think every looks perfect on the surface.

Yeah, and I think it's not a healthy idea. It's just not healthy and it's not true, and nobody can live up to that, you know? Which is why I've been dismantling that need to be perfect for myself, and that's been a painful ride. But

Leading up to your 40th birthday, which is also where the book starts. I, I read the first pages of the prologue and I couldn't quite believe what I was reading. Because the place you're at in your life, this chronic state of discontent that you describe. I, I remember when I got to the chapter 17 in the book, which is no sock em. I'm here. That was the first time I had to stop reading because it was a lot, a lot for me to take.

Hearing that. That's what was going on in your head, in your mind, that's the way you viewed life, you didn't see any path forward for you. You're 39 years old. Um, apparently, you know, on the surface, it seems like you've got everything that anyone would dream of having, but internally there's this chronic state of discontent. If I was, I often say to people, if I was a fly on the wall, but if I was a fly inside the walls, what were you?

What was going through your mind? 39 years old, about to turn 40?

oh, I was. I was in a very, very dark place, very dark place.

Just I remember the line I read where you said, If I got to four Pm every day,

I was like, I made it, I made it, and even that was like, so hard. I mean, you know, I was talking to my mother this morning, cause she just read the book. And she said, I can't believe you didn't talk about how you woke up every day crying.

really?

Yeah, and I was like, you know, Ma, I, I just. I think it was enough to tell people that I was looking for a cliff to drive off of, you know? And what she brought up was like, she knew I was unhappy, but she didn't know why. So it wasn't that people around me didn't know that I was really unhappy. It's just that everybody believed what I believed, which is why it was so hard for me to talk about.

Which is like, you've got everything, what are you unhappy about, right? And so that's how I was feeling. You've got everything, what are you unhappy about? And that was just. I had so much shame around that, cause I didn't understand, and even then there wasn't a lot of conversation around mental health. And so I was just like, fuck it, I can't keep doing this. I want out. And it was just a really, really dark time.

When you say you were looking for a cliff to drive off of, you're not saying that theoretically or as a metaphor.

No, I'm saying I was looking to the point where I was like, Big Sur, I knew exactly the route to drive, and it's this really narrow route, and sometimes it gets really foggy there at night. And you, I'm not, I'm not making it out of that, out of that drop. I, I remember driving that one time, going to Big Sur, cause I was looking like here, like a mile, and I was like, these drops aren't gonna like.

I need a drop that I'm not making it back. I don't wanna be disfigured, I don't want, I want out. And I knew I had to make it look like an accident, cause I did not want my kids to think that I had committed suicide. No, I was, I was, yeah, I was in a lot of pain. I was in a really, really dark place. And when you're in that place, you just can't see your way out.

And you really think I really thought something was really wrong with me because what I was feeling wasn't matching the exterior of my life. So I really did feel like I, I was just born broken and I was just wired in a way that just

What was the truth? If that's how you felt, what was in hindsight? Now? What do you know to be the truth of that emotion and that state of your life? 39, 40 years old? What was actually going on?

that. I really feel like that. Sometimes when we get into these states of wanting to die, you know, for those of us who have had, like, suicidal thoughts and what have you? Sometimes it is chemical, that's a different thing. I think mine was more psychological. Something is asking to die, but not you. And it's a it's, it's a different way of looking at things, right? And so, and that it's it is it. It is an extreme shift in which I had to get out of my cycle of self-hatred.

I was in a cycle of self-hatred that I didn't even know, cause we're unconscious of it. So the mind is tricking us, you know what I mean? We gotta be careful with this. This isn't as reliable as we think, you know, and so, um, but I was in a I was in a cycle of self-hatred, and it wasn't until, thank God, for my son that I was, you know, he introduced me. Um, his friend's father did ayahuasca, and they happened to be talking about it, and they talked to me about it.

Jaden came in the kitchen. He's like, you gotta sit down with Moises and Mateo, you gotta hear about this experience, ma that their dad had.

Was Jaden saying that intentionally? Did he know that you needed?

No, he wasn't saying that. He was just curious, He was just, he knows I'm curious, he knows I'm a seeker, right? That was divine. And so I went and talked to them and I was like, Hey, is your dad in town? And then their dad came and I talked to him and he, I was like, I need that. And then the universe opened up a door for me to have my own ceremony for days of like, intense, tense ceremony.

But that's when I got to see that cycle of self-hatred. I was like, This is you, these are your thoughts. This is how you feel about yourself. This is the problem. And so the medicine really showed me this pit of self-hatred I was in, and it helped me get out of it.

chapter twenty of the book you titled Surrender, Surrender is an interesting word. Why is surrender so important in your journey?

you have to surrender everything you think you are and everything you think you know.

I've spoken to a lot of people that have done Alcoholics Anonymous, and they talk about the importance Surrender, of surrender.

yeah, it's like surrendering, you know, for me, also surrendering to a power, a higher power, and that's a constant. That's every day I have to remind myself and deepen my surrender to a power far greater than myself.

Chapter twenty one, The Holy Joke, The Holy Slap, and the Holy Lessons. It's interesting because there's similarities between chapter nineteen and chapter twenty one in that you took a lot of the blame for situations. Chapter nineteen, The Entanglement Conversation. Because when you watch that clip online at the at the red table, Will looks tired and he looks sad, and he says that thing, he says, I'm gonna get you back. It did. It made it look like you had cheated on him or something.

I had to like, check the facts, because if you see that clip in isolation, it looks like you cheated on Will or something, which is not what happened. But you put that out anyway, you I did, put, you could have not put that out. I know, Do you regret putting that out? You don't,

I don't. If I didn't put that out, I wouldn't have seen that next place of healing that I needed. Because I can take so much like discomfort. It wasn't until I saw how the people around me were affected. I mean, my mother, my kids, my friends, people like they were like, how could you do this? And I was like, Well, I just wanted to end everything, you know? Will wasn't ready for the world to know that we weren't together and that we were living separate lives.

And I just took it because I just wanted to stop. I just wanted it to end. People were like, No, my mother was like, What are you? She was like, you need to get your ass in therapy. She was like, You are codependent as hell, you know? And everybody was just so. And then how people that love me so much were affected by that time. I don't think it would have penetrated. And for me to really look at that part of myself if it hadn't been for how the people around me reacted.

Cause I don't really care about public in that way, like most people do. I don't, whatever, cause I understand the chaos and the just absurdity of all of that. But people who love me, I needed that mirror to see that place of healing that needed to happen in me and the dynamic within myself.

what was that dynamic within yourself? Just like martyrdom, Oh, okay, throwing yourself under the

yeah, that martyrdom, that I'm, I will, martyrdom, the holy slap yeah,

you, you. You write about in the book how you didn't realize that Will had actually slapped Chris until much later. You thought it, you suspected, maybe it was a skit I thought or a joke.

it was a skit, and then I realized it wasn't. But I didn't think that he actually made contact with Chris. Looked like he ducked it,

Social media grabbed onto this eye roll, and they, um, social media believed that that eye roll was some kind of like, like, go get him, Will.

yeah. And even if it was, it was like, I can't force Will to do anything, you know,

And you and Will weren't together.

we weren't together, as you know, we were family. I was there with him as family, but we weren't together at that time.

Were you surprised by the reaction? And to that moment, both for you, but also for Will? And I was

and no. I was surprised at how much. I knew I was gonna get blamed, but like, I didn't think that it was gonna be. I. I mean, it was insane, you know, it was like, wow, um, but I knew, I knew we were, ha, I knew it was gonna be a storm.

in the book, you say, protection is your love language. He protected you, didn't he? Did you see that as a act of love?

you know, it's a really complicated moment. It's a really complex moment. I'll say yes and no in a certain manner, you know, um, but I definitely think in his way. But it was, it was so much more. It wasn't about me. That's why it's complex, right? It's like it was about a lot more than just that moment, a lot more than just me. That's what I know, you know what I mean,

Cause you know Will, and you know where he's come from.

yeah, and I, I. There was a lot that was stirring up for him at that time because of emancipation, and he and Chris have their own history.

Going back to the eighties,

Yeah, going back to the eighties, and it's a deep one.

Jada, thank you, thank you for writing this book, because it's. It's not until we understand people's context that we understand them, and when we understand them, we realize that they are just so much like us. In the the wounded, the imperfect, the survival, the defense and all of those things. And that's exactly what I got from reading Worthy. Um, but also, as I said to you, I think before we started recording, there were so many moments in there that acted as the advice that no one around me could have given me because they've not walked in those stairs.

You, you act as an elder to me in the book because you're. You've helped me to figure out and shine a light on a certain area of my behavior, which comes from, um, maybe a wound that I have that is gonna hold me back and lead me to a place I don't wanna go to. promise you, yes, Yeah, exactly, and you're right, you've used the word breadcrumbs, but that's exactly what the book is. It's these, these, it's your story, but throughout your story, you leave these little nuggets of wisdom and lessons that will guide those that read the book to a better place in their own lives.

And they can subjectively define what that better place is. But the wisdom is enduring, because the wisdom is human, and it's true, so there's something in there for everybody. It's one of the the best books I've ever read because of the the writing style, the vividness. I I felt like I was in your grandmother's garden. I felt like I was there at, um, all of the key moments. Uh, when you, when you have what I described, what I thought was a panic attack on the highway, and those moments, the moments of sadness, the vividness of the writing is so is so profound.

But the vulnerability of the book is the most impressive thing. It's easy not to be vulnerable, it's easy to paint a narrative that is self-serving, but that's not what you do here. You seem to be in the pursuit of the truth, and that's exactly what I take away from this book. So thank you so much, Jada.

thank you. thank you for creating a safe space at your gray table and, uh, for holding my tears today. I appreciate that, thank you.

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