Richard Branson: How A Dyslexic Drop-out Built A Billion Dollar Empire

You do think about, is it selfish, is it worth it, is it something? So, um Sir Richard Branson

Richard Branson is one of the most fun-loving and adventurous billionaires in the world.

He's conquered our skies, blasted off into space.

The entrepreneur's entrepreneur, the marketer's marketer.

In the school of business, they said, focus. By the age of thirty three, you've got fifty different companies, you kind of break that law, it seems

if we'd stayed still and only focused on one business, we wouldn't have a business today, we're still going strong fifty five years later. If you get the little details right, it makes for an exceptional company over an average company. We were the first airline to introduce seatback videos in the world, sleeper seats for business class passengers. We've always been ahead of the pack. The airline's been bullied by British Airways, famously through the dirty tricks campaign. The best always succeed.

as if all of that you'd done before wasn't enough, you decided to aim for the stars.

We're going to space.

Looking back at this beautiful, beautiful earth that we live on whilst floating, it was a dream come true. You know, we're still at the early stage of space travel and there's still risks.

One pilot has died after a passenger Spaceship plane. crashed.

Everything that we'd built up, uh, looked like it was crashing down.

What impact does that have on you and your mission?

You've got to continue.

Richard, having spent the last twenty four hours reading both your autobiographies, but also your new H B O um docu series. It feels very relevant to start where I usually start when I have these conversations, which is, can you tell me the context that I would need to understand about you? And your earliest years, your home life before the age of ten? That went on to making you the man that I saw in that documentary series, but the man that we've also observed and been inspired by for many decades.

So I was, um, brought up, uh, in the countryside, um, uh, I I love the country, um, uh, uh. And I was brought up by, um, a a mum and dad who, um, uh, I suppose, were were struggling after the second world war. Um, uh, uh, a mother who was, uh, a fairly extraordinary woman, uh, who was absolutely determined that we'd stand on our own two feet, um, uh, wouldn't let us watch television, um, you know, made sure that we were out outside, uh, doing things or creating things, um, uh, and, uh, and you know, I've been forever grateful for for for that approach, um, and um, uh.

On occasions, she would, uh, maybe go a little bit far, you know, sort of, um, you know, pushing us out of the car at age five or six and making us, you know, find our own way to granny's house. But, um, you know, anyway, we survived all her, all, all, uh, uh, her, her approach, and and um, and hopefully, the stronger for it.

Throughout your docuseries, but also throughout your your books and everything that I've heard you talk about Eve, your mother. Um, she, she felt like a really, really extraordinarily principled and um strong character. And in the docuseries, you actually say that you didn't realize how much she had influenced you on becoming the entrepreneur you are today. What was it that she was doing? Uh, pushing you out the car at four, five years old and making you walk home, but what is what was, were those principles that underlined her approach?

So, I mean, she was one of the sort of, uh, first entrepreneurs around, really. I mean, not, you know, uh, not a particularly successful one, but she was, um, making table mats and, you know, cutting out pretty pictures from books. And s ma and and um, turning them to, you know, tur turning them into, uh, pictures that you would then take to Harrods or, um, Harvey Nichols. W Um, interestingly, and I I didn't realise this until I sort saw it in some letters, uh, that she'd written to me, um, uh, um, you know, working from a phone box in in in London, um, and um, uh, and that was her office, just like my office had been later

on, work working from a phone box at school. Um, but um, uh, yeah, but so she, she would never stop, she, she, she was an idea, idea, a minute, um, or always trying to, uh, uh, uh, you know, better, be, better our lives, be, uh, better and um, and also always trying to create things that she could be proud of.

When was when was she most proud of you? In terms of what kind of behaviors or achievements would make her most happy when you were young?

Um, she, um, yeah, she was, she was, um, fairly, uh, yeah, uh, yeah, she she was. She was quite fairly firm when it came to, uh, you know, the need for, um, you know, being courteous, um, from a young age. Um, I mean, I remember, uh, uh, in church. One day I refused to go and sit next to some somebody that she wanted me to sit next to, who was maybe visiting our house. Um, and when I got home, um, uh, she asked my dad to spank me, and, uh, that that had never happened before, and my dad, um, takes me into into the living room, into into the next door room, and, um, uh, and um, instructs me to

burst into tears. And he slaps his hands together very hard six times. I come out rubbing my bum, um, but um, um, and then, of course, she regretted having done it in the first place, but of course it never happened. Um, they, um, but um, um, but that, you know, that, that, you know, she, uh, she, she, she, you know, she. She. Generally speaking, it was, um, unreserved love, but she she wanted us to, uh, care for other people properly.

Um, you know, if we ever said ill about somebody, we'd be sent to the mirror and, uh, we'd have to stand there for ten minutes, uh, because it, she, you know, she felt it reflected so badly on us, uh, that we'd said ill of somebody. Um, and, you know, those sort of less lessons, I think, were very, very, very powerful and very good. Uh, later on in life, when I was, you know, leading people, um, always trying to look for the best in in everybody.

One of the threads throughout your story, which, um, shocked me, surprised me, and inspired me in many ways throughout the docuseries, was this continual desire to move on to the next thing and and make things bigger. And to capture another opportunity, which struck me as being, at times, like a really defining character of of you. You know, even when things seem to be successful by anyone's estimation, you pushed on again, and then you'd push on again and again.

Do you do you have any idea where that instinct or that characteristic came from in you?

I'm sure that came from, um, uh, my mum, um, I am son of Eve, which, which is my mum's name, um, and um, but it's all. Also, I think because I was dyslexic, um, and, you know, pretty hopeless at school, um, I've forever been trying to prove something to myself, um, and um, and and pr, and prove something that, you know, when she was alive to her and my dad, um, and um, uh, I'm inquisitive, I just love, I love learning about new things.

Um, and once I've actually absorbed everything there is to know about, you know, the uh, the thing I've, you know, just created. I'm a apt to want to move on and learn, learn something about something completely different. Um, particularly if I feel other people are not doing it well. And and um, so I just love diving in there and and um, uh, trying to, you know, shake up an industry that is badly run.

Do you think she, she and your father, even your father, um, Ted, had high hopes for you?

I think that, um, my mum, uh, definitely thought that I would be, um, yeah, she she, as, she decided that I was gonna be prime minister of, uh, Britain one day. And, um, uh, and I think that, um, yeah, she, so she, she definitely had high hopes for me. Um, uh, my dad just wanted, uh, us to be happy. I mean, he was, um, a very, uh, love lovable, content, um, funny, uh, witty, uh, individual.

Um, wanted to be an archaeologist, but ended up, uh, go going into the law after after the war, and would have been happy, I think, what, you know, as long as we were happy. Um, he, he didn't mind, you know, he didn't really want to push us, but um, but my mum, I think, expected, expected more of us.

You mentioned school um a few moments ago, you and me both have a similarity in that we were hopeless in school. You went off to boarding school at seven years old, which in and of itself is a very pretty extreme experience for a seven year old. You described this as being a little bit too young in your view, um, and you struggled in part because of your dyslexia. At the time, did you, did you know what dyslexia was or what it meant?

No, I had no idea what dyslexia was, I just, um, assumed that I must be a little bit thick. Um, I mean, I could just about add up and subtract, but when it got to more complicated stuff, uh, like algebra and geometry and the likes, I couldn't understand the reason for it. I wasn't interested in it. Y, you know, I couldn't understand why we were having to learn French when when, um, nobody seemed to ever actually speak it when they left school, and um, or Latin, or, um, and um.

And so I suppose in my head, I rebelled against, um, being taught things that I couldn't see the relevance of. Um, and um, and actually, that was a good thing, cause it it ended with me rebelling from actually staying at school and leaving school at fifteen. Um, and, uh, and creating some, uh, uh, uh, and creating a magazine, uh, which, um, uh, to try to sort of, uh, address some of the issues in the world.

Your dyslexia, um, you've often highlighted that in many respects it's been a superpower, it's given you skills that have led to your success. What, what, what is that? what are those skills, and what is the advantage, in your view, of this dyslexia, and how that's changed how you function and operate?

Um, I think, uh, that, um, well, first of all, I, I, I would like to say I'm proud of being a dyslexic thinker. Um, and I'm I'm delighted that, uh, dyslexic thinking is now becoming, um, almost part of the vocabulary. Um, and I'm pleased to to, uh, you know, talk to many dyslexic kids over the years to try to make them realize that, um, you know, you know, do not, do not be be worried about it.

Um, you know, look at, look at the areas that you, you, um, that you enjoy and cons concentrate on those, um, and the areas that you're not great at. Um, you, uh, you know, either that you'll catch up later on in life, um, or, you know, if you're gonna start a business, you can delegate and find other people who can deal with those. Um, so I think dyslexic, di, dyslexic people really excel at the things that things that they're, that interest them.

Um, and I think an a I know a lot of a lot of business people, for instance, who were dyslexics, who've, um, who, uh, have have, um, gone, gone on to do incredible things.

Your headmaster, um, I, I read the very, uh, slightly humorous, slightly, um, shocking story of you, uh. When you were at boarding school, you had a little bit of a romantic run-in with his his his daughter. Charlotte, uh, got expelled, uh, staged a fake suicide, got unexpelled, um, and then you, as you referenced a second ago, you had this idea for the student magazine. I read that there was a an ultimatum given to you by your headmaster, where he said, Richard, I know you're starting this magazine, you, you either got to leave school or um, st and start the magazine, or stay in school and focus on your fu formal education.

And at that point, you made the decision to jump ship.

Yeah, I mean, I, I don't think the headmaster was very foresighted. I think, uh, you know, if a kid at school wants to start a national magazine for young people, what a great education. And they they should have, well, they should have welcomed us to stay at school and do it for, you know, within the from from school, uh, but the headmaster wasn't going to, um, allow me to do that, um, and and and thank God, because, um, you know, getting out into the real world, uh, I'd.

I'd achieved a lot more than I would have done. Um, if he, if he'd, um, if if he, if he'd been pleasant and said, uh, you know, run the magazine from school. Um, there were a lot, there was a lot going on in the world. Um, you know, there was the Vietnam War, um, there was the Biafran War, um, there were, um, uh, the provos in Holland, there was, um, uh, uh, it. There was the education system that needed students to rebel against, and um, and the and so it was a.

It was an exciting time in the sixties to leave school, go to London, um, and um, try to start a magazine.

I watched your, um, as I watched your docuseries yesterday in that that theatre, um, that we're all in, including yourself. One of the lines really struck with struck me when when they showed the the small room that you were building this magazine in. I know sometimes it was a post box, but sometimes there was a small room. I think at a later date, a line was said which was, um, this was my education. And for young people who are considering take taking a leap when they have very little responsibility or think, you know, very little to lose.

Throwing themselves in that kind of throwing themselves in a situation where they'll fail their way to an education struck me as being so important and so underrated. You don't have kids or you don't have a house or a mortgage. Um, and it seems like that's exactly what you did. You used like failure and risk as a way to self-educate.

Yeah, I mean, it's difficult for me to recommend it to everybody listening to this program, because, um, not everyone's going to be successful. And obviously, you and I have been fortunate that we we have had success doing it that way. Um, some people, and and I'm gonna get put my conservative hat on, knowing that the parents may be listening as well. Um, you know, some people will benefit from having an education, you know, degree or whatever to fall back on if they're, if they're, if they're, they find that they're they just can't make a go of it in business.

Um, but anyway, for I th, I I think for the two of us, um, I think the um, uh, yeah, being out in the real world, I mean, I learnt so much, um, and, uh, um, and it, you know, it's held me in such good stead through throughout my life. Um, you know, in running a magazine, of course, you know, you're going out interviewing people, you're learning every time you interview somebody. Um, uh, uh, I'd, you know, I think, um, being being a journalist or being a being an editor, you, uh, it's not so different from being an entrepreneur.

You're, you're out all the time meeting new people in different sectors, just learning, learning, learning. Um, and um, and, you know, through the magazine, uh, a lot of people would write with problems, uh, young people would write with problems. So, um, we ended up setting up as as a student advisory centre, uh, where we would, um, uh, give people advice on venereal disease or gay the gay population, or, um, or, um, you know, contraceptive advice, abortion advice, um, psychiatric advice, um, you know, and um, and you know, just meeting all these people with all these different problems, suicidal, uh, um, um, uh, suicide, suicidal mental health problems.

Um, really open, opened my mind. It was just a fascinating, fascinating education. And um, and throughout my life since then, I've spent a lot of my life trying to, uh, address some of these issues. In a, in a, in a fir. First of all, in a wider sense, in London, and now more more on a global scale. And um, but but that was, you know, that edu education of, um, was was so important. Um, you know, for instance, I remember when I was fifteen in London, you know, somebody who was gay came to me saying that they wanted help.

And, um, maybe I was, I just turned sixteen, and um, and I thought very naively that, uh, when they said they wanted help, that, that, you know, they didn't want to be gay. Um, of course, you know, within a month or two, I realised that, you know, that people are born gay, and, uh, and, uh, and they don't have a choice in the matter. And um, and what they, what they desperately need needed in those days was to meet other gay people.

And, uh, cause, cause, you know, if they came from, um, some remote place in the U K where gay people weren't accepted, um, they would come to London desperately seeking, uh, seeking love or se seeking friendship, um, and, um, uh, and and so, you know, ba, just little things like that, um, I learnt from, um, just just being out there, uh, listening and doing.

Your that was that magazine was your, um, the first sort of big notable thing that you'd you'd done in business. And throughout your story, and even before I'd I'd met you and watched the docuseries and read the book, I was told by other people Richard Branson's a super, an amazing delegator. You mentioned it earlier on your, your, your delegation skills. To understand how to delegate to someone else, you first, as you've said, need to understand your strengths and weaknesses, and also their strengths and weaknesses.

So what is what are your strengths, in your own words? What is the bit of the puzzle that you're good at?

I think I'm good with people. Um, I think, um, uh, I try, I, I can trust people, I think I can surround myself with, um, uh, you know, with with with really, really good people. I think I'm, uh, able to, um, uh, yeah, to delegate, to de, to delegate, not to second second guess them all the time. Um, uh, yeah, to praise, not criticize, um, and um, uh, and uh, I I think I'm, I think I'm quite good at, uh, if I create something, making sure it's the best, you know, the best in its area.

Um, so that the people who working for Virgin are really proud of what they're doing. Um, uh, you know, it's really important that, um, you know, if if somebody's in a pub and they work for Virgin and somebody says, what do you do? That they're, uh, they're proud of the fact that that, uh, you know, they work for Virgin and they're happy to say it. Um, and there are some companies that that that um, if people work for, they won't, they won't really want to be able to say that they work for such and such a company.

Um, yeah, so I think I, I, I think, I think my people skills, um, is, is, is the is the most important um skill. Um, I think, um, uh, just giving, giving, you know, gi, giving things a try, um, uh, you know, screw it, let's do it. Obviously, it's one a phrase I made ca did years ago, and and, uh, and I've used that phrase many, many a time. You know, somebody comes with a an idea and I like them, and, um, and, um, yeah, just say, um, you know, let let's let's give it a go.

And, um, and sometimes we both, we, we all fat, fall flat on our face, sometimes, some sometimes it succeeds.

And conversely, then, what are the what are the weaknesses that you've kind of observed in yourself, or the things that you tend to delegate to other people? I, I actually read something which said, which was a quote of yours that said, I wanted an I an I Q test. At eight years old, I don't think I filled in anything. Going forward thirty or so years, I was running Europe's largest private group of companies, but I didn't know the difference between gross and net profit, but it didn't matter.

Yes, I was in a board meeting, uh, when I was about fifty years old, and um, uh, and the director, um, said, um, and I think I said, is that good news or bad news? And and one of the directors said, come, come outside, Richard a minute. So we came outside and he said, you don't know the difference between net and gross, do you? So I said, uh, no, um, uh, he said, I thought not. Anyway, I brought a sheet of paper, so he brings out this sheet of paper and he, uh, he, he ca.

He has some C color pens, and he C, he colours it in blue. And then he puts a fishing net in the um in it, and then he puts a little fish in the fishing net. And he says, um, so the fish that are in the net, that's your profit at the end of the year, and the rest of the ocean, that's your gross turnover. And, um, I went, I got it, and, uh, I was ever, ever since then, I've been name-dropping net and gross to people who obviously know full well what it is.

And and um, but the but the point of the story is, uh, it really doesn't matter. Um, I mean, it's bet it's a good idea, most likely, if your your ch, your chief accountant, uh, knows, um, uh, but, you know, for, uh, for somebody who's running a company, what matters is, can you, um, you know, can you create the best, um, the best company in its sector? You know, if you're going to create an airline, is it gonna be palpably better than, um, the rival airline?

If you create a cruise company, is it gonna be palpably better than the other cruise companies? If you're gonna create a train company, is it gonna be palpably better than what's gone before? And if it is, then at the end of the year, it's likely that more money that will come in than goes out. Um, and, um, uh, and then somebody, you know, somebody else can add up, add up the figures. Um, uh, so I think, you know, to to be to to run a to run a business, you know, yes, it helps to add up, it helps to subtract, it helps to multiply.

Um, I don't even think you need to wor worry about division. Um, that that's it. So, um, uh, you know, so if you can, if you can do those three things, um, uh, you, you can run a business. If you can't do those three things, I wouldn't worry too much. You'll find somebody else who can, and just but just go out and create something that's gonna make a positive difference to other people's lives.

That student magazine became, um, kind of pivoted at the end into a a mail order music business, which is a big part of the the docuseries that we watched yesterday. Um, but then it became so many more things. And it's the the. The interesting thing is kind of how you swang from one of these business ideas to the next, because you'd seen a product or service that you thought could be done better, or there was an opportunity there.

When I, you know, in in the school of entrepreneurship, if that's like a metaphorical thing, we always talk about the importance of focus. Now, when I look at your story from fifteen years old, starting that magazine to starting a mail order business around, I think twenty, uh, twenty two years old, when Virgin was kind of, um, conceptualized and launched. And then by the age of thirty three, you've got fifty different companies involving everything from film, ma making to, um, conditioner, cleaning, and and generating more than $10 million in sales.

I go, this is not what they told me about. The need for focus in the school of business, they said, focus, you kind of break that law, it seems, of focus.

So, um, uh, so I've, I've never really thought of myself as a business person. Um, uh, obviously, you know, on paper, I am an entrepreneur, um, or a business person. Um, uh, I've never really been interested in the bottom line, despite, uh, what the, uh, the the doc docu series seems to portray. Um, I, I've. I've really have been interested in creating things I can be proud of, um, and, uh, and a lot of those things come out of personal frustration.

And I must have been frustrating quite a lot when I was young, cause I've and and and ended up, you know, trying a lot of things, um, uh, and um, and I just found it great fun. Um, investing in, you know, people I met, um, you know, uh, you know, somebody will come along and, uh, you know, the the the music business may have been, um, you know, struggling at one stage in my career with with with the advent of the iPod.

And, um, so, you know, a couple of guys come along and say, uh, um, you know, we, we, you, you should do mobile phones, this is, you know, this would replace the music business. And, um, and they were great, great, great people, and and, um, you know, so we thought, screw it, you know, let's do it, let's, you know, go into the mobile phone business. And and and so if we, if we'd stayed still and only done, only focused on one business, um, uh, maybe let's say the record business, um, uh, let's say record stores, um, which is one of our earlier, earlier things, um, uh, we most likely we wouldn't have a business today.

Because the re re, you know, megastores and virge and and record stores no longer exist. Because, um, yeah, the the i, the iPod and free music really put them out of business. Um, so, you know, so by actually going against the rule, rules of, you know, what you learn in business school, um, we, you know, we, we're still going strong, you know, fifty five years later, um, and, um, uh, and diversification actually saved us. I mean, like, you know, during Covid, um, uh, you know, Virgin Atlantic and, uh, very badly hit, air uh companies, uh, was was saved by Virgin.

Uh, I mean, being able to sell, sell Virgin Galactic shares. So, um, so diversification, um, is far more exciting. Um, you, you learn a hell of a lot more, and, um, it can be useful in times of crisis.

It's clear that only a great delegator would would be able to diversify without creating, um, spreading themselves too thinly per se. And

For sure.

I I G, I guess that goes back to that skill of divisive, um, of delegation. Your headmaster said something to you that my best friend Joe Ridgeway said to me when I was eighteen years old, after I dropped out of university, my best friend Joe Ridgeway, um, from Plymouth, said to me. I remember I stood in this this curry shop on, uh, on in Rusholme. He said, You're either going to be a millionaire or in prison.

Now. When I read that this morning, when I was doing research on, um, your headmaster, it stopped me in m in my breakfast halfway through my sort of chew. I thought, gosh, now I know why he said that to me, because he knew there was a certain level of desperation in me, and there was a certain craftiness which was, could either take me, could either be used for good or evil. When you was, when you did the student magazine, that that um prophecy appeared to come true one day when the police raided your um magazine and arrested you.

And I learned about this in the doc docu series last night. Your m your mother then puts her house on the line to get you out of jail. And you choose to expand, you, you choose to expand your way out of the problem. Which for you meant, as it said in the docuseries, opening thirty record stores that year to be able to pay your mother back. Have you always chosen to expand your way out of problems?

Yes, I think, I think the answer is yes. Um, I mean, I, I spent one night in prison. I, um, in those days, you had to pay tax on um records if you shipped them to Europe. Sadly, with Brexit, you're gonna have, people gonna have to do that again. But, um, uh, and, um, uh, and I stumbled into the fact that if you drove across the channel and drove back again, you had a piece of paper which said you'd exported the records and therefore you didn't have to pay the tax.

And um, and um, uh, but, uh, anyway, so we we got a a a bad rap on the knuckles. I spent, I spent a night in prison and swore never, ever, ever, uh, um, to spend a second night in prison in my life. Um, and, uh, and yes, we expanded fast in order to pay pay off the fine. Um, uh, we just needed the turnover, um, and it was, it was actually, um, uh, uh, actually, a really, um, uh, a a a wonderful booster to to all the team at Virgin to to, um, uh, and, um, uh, and fortunately, you know, we managed within three years to pay, to pay it off.

Um, but, um, I mean, I, I, I sometimes we're expanding, uh, uh, expanding just for the sheer pleasure of learning about something new. And, um, uh, and then maybe occasionally on, like, like, on that occasion, we're expanding to get ourselves out of prob, out of trouble.

The most, from my perspective, one of the most, um, terrifying decisions you ever made was to go into the airline industry. Warren Buffett's fairly famous for saying that he has once considered employing someone to sit in his office and every time he feels like investing in an airline, to talk him out of it. Because it's such a absurd, terrifying business to get into. You were running a very successful record label and record store, um, business. By then you had many, many companies, many investments, and you decided to take this huge bet to start an airline.

Now there's a lot said about why. Could you tell me, in your own words, why?

Um, it, it, it really was out of frustration of, um, flying on other people's airlines, having having bad experiences, um, and feeling that, um, we could, uh, we could do it better, we could make it better, it could be more fun. I mean, in in in those days, uh, you know, if you flew on, say, British Airways, it was a monopoly. Um, uh, they, you know, you were, you, you maybe got a lump of chicken dumped in your lap.

Um, there was no entertainment, um, the cabin crew certainly didn't enjoy working for the company, and, um, and you really felt like you were just being herded from A to B in a in a cattle truck. Um, and um, uh, and so, uh, I flew, I was flying all over the world, um, to, um, uh, to, uh, to visit our record companies, cause we had record companies in most countries around the world, and and just felt, you know, that that we, we could, we could do it better.

Um, uh, somebody came along to us with the idea of a business airline, um, only. I didn't think that would be very exciting to run. Um, and um, uh, but I thought a a really, really good quality airline for everybody, including business people, um, you know, would be a a something special to run. And, um, uh, and so ended up ring ringing up Boeing and um, and having a wonderful discussion with a a wonderful guy called R.

J. Wilson, and um, ending up, um, being able to, uh, lease a secondhand seven four seven from him. Um, and um, and because, you know, uh, uh, I do like to, you know, to protect the downside, which is obviously important in business. Um, I did did a deal with him whereby I could hand the plane back at the end of twelve months. If, uh, you know, if my instinct was not right, um, and um, but fortunately, at the end of twelve months, people love flying on Virgin Atlantic, and we ended up, you know, getting a second and a third plane from Boeing.

And um, and that was, yeah, thirty eight years ago, and, um, and, you know, Virgin Atlantic has, um, uh, you know, it's, it's like a, uh, it's roughly the same age as my daughter. Um, uh, you know, sh, um, she's been, uh, the. The airline's been bullied, um, by British Airways, I mean, famously through the dirty tricks campaign. Um, uh, it was a really tough time. Um, we took the a to court and we won the biggest libel damages in history.

Um, uh, and she's had, she's had to go through the like, think of crashes like the um, uh, nine, nine, nine eleven disaster, um, the 2008 disaster, um, the COVID disaster. Um, and, uh, and I'm sure that we've it, you know, that that it's cost us more money than, um, than we've ever made from it. Um, uh, but it's been the flagship, uh, you know, for Virgin. Um, it's enabled us to launch other companies in different countries around the world on the back of the the strong brand and the strong reputation it's had.

Um, and, uh, she's, she's a a daughter that I will zealously protect, and and, um, uh, as long as I can.

When you look back at why that business survived, considering the fierce competition, considering what British Airways did and were ultimately found guilty of in court with their dirty tricks campaigns. The bit that really st stuck out to me yesterday was hearing that they had a staff member hack into your customer database. Um, to to kind of s spy on what you were doing. That went to court, you won the battle, um, and that acted as a a real boost, I think, for Virgin, because it kind of staged you as this sort of David versus Goliath, um, situation where you were the underdog.

But as you look back on that journey, um, many people have fallen in that industry. It's a graveyard, as you say in the documentary. Why did Virgin win? What was it, was it brand, was it customer experience, was it just grit?

I th I think that, um, uh, I think a lot comes back to staff. I mean, um, that that we, we, we've always had a great, um, team of people working at Virgin, they're, they're really proud of the company, um, uh, um, they, um, uh, we've done things, you know, we've always been ahead of ahead of the pack in in, um, new innovations. So, um, you know, seatback videos, for instance, we were the first airline to introduce seatback videos in the world.

Um, uh, the um, uh, you know, sleeper seats for business class passengers, um, uh, um, you know, s stand up bars and um, and and lounges and so on, um, you know, collect collecting money at the door, you know, um, for charity. That, um, Virgin was the first to do that, and now pretty well every airline and most airports are doing it as well. These change, um, so I think, um, uh, you know, every, every little detail, I think we w um, the team have got right at at Virgin, um, and um, uh, and if you get the little details right, uh, you know, um, then collectively, um, uh, you.

It makes for an exceptional company over an average company. And, um, you know, if I'm on a Virgin plane, I'll, I'll, or in any Virgin company, I'll have my notebook, I'll take notes, I'll listen to, listen to the staff, listen to the customers, um, you know, um, and then act on it when I get to the far end. And um, uh, and and then be in t back in touch with the people who, you know, gave me the ideas to thank them and tell them what we've done.

And and and I think a good, a good leader has to be a good listener, um, and if you're, if you're, um, uh, uh, and that's, I think, one of the most important attributes of a good leader.

I grabbed my phone halfway through watching the docuseries yesterday when you mentioned the seatback videos, because in the same breath, you mentioned how every accountant would tell you, um, not to do many of the things that you've chosen to do. But also, the banks wouldn't even lend you the money to to do the seatback videos. They'd give you the money to, like, $2 billion to do the planes, but they wouldn't give you the 10 million to do the seatback videos.

You've mentioned instinct as well a few times. As a C E O, over the years, I've had this battle between, like, instinct and the C F O. You seem to tend to. I think the quote you said was, um, you tend not to consult finance people and accounts people when you, when you have these ideas. How have you found that battle between the two, between your instinct and your vision, and the money? People going, this won't work, this doesn't make sense.

I suspect that you're on, you're the entrepreneur, and and they're the C F O, because you're the entrepreneur and they're the C F O. So I think you just got to believe in your your instinct, and um, and, um, uh, and and go with it. And if you create something, you know, I mean, we're just opening a new hotel in uh, New York. Um, you know, if it's the best hotel in New York, even if it's gone over budget in in the building of it, which it, which it will have done, um, uh, the the best always succeed.

Um, uh, you know, we, we, we, tr famously during Covid, uh, launched a new cruise line, Virgin Voyages. Um, uh, you know, it is, you know, so much better than any other cruise line out there. Um, you know, we've had two years where we've had to moth mothball the ships, um, but, you know, we're stuck with it because we know that the the quality is such that, um, people will seek it out. And it, and, uh, and the feedback's been, you know, spectacular.

I mean, it's Virgin at Virgin, in its absolute best. Um, I'm actually heading there this afternoon. Um, you know, it's fascinating. Each ship has seventy eight different nationalities working on it, um, you know, 1,200 people, um, and they're just the best. And um, and it's adults only, and it's a lot of fun. And, um, uh, but, you know, there were moments during Covid that we did think, you know, we, we definitely chose the wrong business to launch.

Virgin at its absolute best. What does that mean? What is Virgin at its best?

Virgin at its best is when you launch a new company and you know that because, you know, people have experienced previous Virgin companies, um, that they will give it a try. You don't really have to even advertise. Um, they, they, they know that when they went on a Virgin train, uh, you know, when we ran the network, that it was, you know, really good quality. When they went on a Virgin plane, it was good quality, when they went into Virgin Health Club, it was good quality.

Um, and so on, um, and um, so, you know, that that gives us a big advantage with S, with a brand that that, uh, people have tried, they've loved. Um, and so when we launch something new, like a cruise line, they they will give it a go. And and we make sure that we don't let them down. Um, and, and, and then, you know, having them try the cruise line. If we decide to do a new venture, um, you know, we can, we can, we can.

It's that much easier for us to launch it off off the back of the cruise line.

Y you, you are so synonymous with the the Virgin. I don't think I I know a person who is as synonymous with their brand as an individual. So when you think of Virgin, you think of Richard Branson, you think of Richard Branson, you think Virgin. Um, and in 1985, you start doing some pretty extreme adventures around the world, which become kind of pay into the brand and give give the brand extra meaning. Things like crossing crossing the Atlantic by boat, which sunk.

It seems like a lot of the the trips you took either collapsed, like, fell out the sky into the into the the sea, or the boat sank. Um, you set so many records through that period. Um, so, so, you know, I was reading about you going uh, 250 miles per hour in a hot air balloon across the the Pacific, from Japan to the Arctic and Canada, again breaking, um, existing records at the time.

This became a real hallmark of, like the the Richard Branson and Virgin brand, these extreme adventures. Was that intentional? When you did that first one, did you was? Was it because of a marketing thing, or was it because of the fun of doing it for yourself?

It started out, uh, as a a mixture of the two, but more, uh, we had one plane, um, and somebody said, you know, why? why don't we try to bring the blue ribbon back to Britain for the fastest boat across the Atlantic? Um, and you know, we can, we can, we can build this boat, um, and um, uh, but it ended up being, um, much more than just a marketing adventure, it became it became a real adventure.

I mean, it was, you know, tremendously exciting. And, um, I was in in my very early thirties, and and um, uh, and you know, it was tough, but it was, it was great fun. Um, there were, you know, lots of, um, moments of drama, uh, which there always are when you're trying something that's never really been tried before. Um, including, as you pointed out, we sank, we sank before we got the whole way across. Um, uh, but um, uh, but anyway, it makes for a good documentary series, um, and it makes for a good book.

And and and, um, and you know, and it did put Virgin on the map. It made Virgin a much more sexy brand, uh, um, a more adventurous brand than, say, British Airways, our rival, um, uh, and and other and other and other brands. Um, um, I mean, Virgin Atlantic cheekily took a full page ad when we sa when we w when we sank in the Atlantic, the the only thing that was sticking out of the Atlantic of the boat was, um, the the brand Virgin.

And um, and the ad just had the picture of the boat sticking out of the water. And and the ad said, Next time, Richard, take the plane. And and, and, of course, there were there were people who said, you know, what have you sank? what have you ended up in the in the Atlantic? You, you know, no one's gonna wanna fly an an airline where? Um, but of course, it is quite the reverse. It's it, it, you know, people, and you know, uh, it, it helped, it helped put a s tiny little airline on the map, um, uh, more more effectively than anything else we could do, and much more cheaply.

You mentioned that ad from, um, from your competitor there. In the moment, competition is the arch enemy, you know, causing you a ton of nuisance. But as you look back on the competition you've had throughout the different industries you've been in, has the competition actually made you stronger and better at what you've done?

Yes, and I think the reverse is also true. Um, that that, uh, you know, these big public companies or big pr um government run companies like British Airways have been made the better. Um, by having um Virgin Atlantic innovating and, you know, them them having to, you know, catch us up, uh, you know, over the years. And I think British Airways is a better company today than it was, um, you know, uh, thirty eight years ago when we started.

So competition's good for all of us, um, big, big and small, and um. And the only role that governments need to play is intervening when there's unfair competition. Um, and that's one of the, um, most important roles a government can play, um, is um, uh, uh, is making sure that they set laws that encourage competition and don't stifle competition. Um, and um, uh, and you know, we've had, uh, yeah, anyway, there there've been books written about, um, uh, about companies that have tried to stifle Virgin in the past, but um, somehow we, somehow we came through.

There's this term now called personal branding, which has become very popular, predominantly because of social media and everybody having a channel and they can build followers and they can try and tell the world who their company is using social media. But you were kind of the first C E O personal brand to many people, because, um, everything you did added value to the brand, and it wasn't just what Virgin said. I think when I look at your story, it teaches me that the brand is what, what the people do and what the founder does becomes the brand more so than ever.

Um, and I think that's often what we lose sight of, and s some of the best band brands in the world, like the Red Bulls of the world, have figured out that the things you do say much more about the brand than what you say. And you, you are, like, the perfect example of that. In the early nineties, you got in a bit of a a struggle because of the the broader economy, and you ended up selling your record business.

From all accounts, and from speaking to some of your current team, they said that this was a very difficult moment for you, that it was crushing. I think the quote that I that I was told, um, is that accurate? And why was it? why was it crushing?

oh, look, I think, uh, um, I, if you think of your, if you think of the, um, uh, the things that you create, like children, whi, which, um, uh, which I, I do, and and and I think of it like that, because it is just a bunch of people. Um, um, I mean, you know, your, your business is yourself and a and a group, a group of people. Um, if you sell it, you, it's like selling selling, you know, if you sell a company, it's like selling a group of children.

And and that's, um, uh, that's tough all round. Um, I needed to, uh, I needed a war chest, um, to combat British Airways and and the dirty tricks that they were. Um, uh, they they'd launched at Virgin, and um, and you know, so, uh, you know, the the war chest, w um, that I that I thought, uh, you know, I could best tap into was Virgin Records. Um, the good thing was that, you know, the the staff at Virgin Records, you know, still had a had a job.

But, um, working for another company and the staff at Virgin Atlantic were safe because we had the the financial clout to, um, to deal, to deal with our competitor. Um, so there are there, you know, there are obviously times in life where you have to make tough decisions like that. And um, uh, and uh, and yeah, but it, uh, and and move and move on.

Do you have any regrets about about how that happened, about that phase?

Um, I have, I've, I've. I always think that if if anybody asked me if I ever have any regrets about anything, it it would be I'd be a very sad person to answer answer positively. Because, you know, I've, I've had the most extraordinary life. Um, it's been full of, you know, interesting twists and turns, um, uh, and I honestly really, you know, can't think of anything I regret, you know, in the past. Um, they, um, and I think I, I really do think I'd be a sad person if I if I had regrets.

I mean, I've just been, um, rich with, rich with, um, uh, you know, adventure, and, uh, and um, and people, and and um, and and I. I'm not somebody who looks back, um, by and large, I mean, obviously an interview like this, I will, but um, uh, and I suppose I've reached an age where, you know, it's important to write books, and it's important to do documentaries. And, you know, w um, because it's important not to waste your life and and it's important to share what you've learned.

How did you feel yesterday watching the UM docuseries on your life? I, I was sat just behind you, so I'd watch, I'd look at the screen, and then I'd look at your reaction, and I'd see you laughing sometimes. And

I was emotionally drained, to be honest. Um, I, I mean, I after the after party, um, I just could not really get my w my words out for the first half an hour. Um, uh, it, you know, I found it quite, you know, fairly exhausting. Um, I mean, they've, I. It's incredible, uh, a really good documentary maker, and and Chris Smith is one of the best in the world. I mean, you know, pr prides himself on on his independence, which I respect completely.

And and so we, you know, we didn't have input into it. Um, you know, obviously, therefore, not everything one's going to agree with, and and not everything is, you know, in in my brain would be exactly as as it was. But nine, you know, 95%, 96% was was as I see it. And but it, but but just what it is is incredible was the archive footage they managed to find.

Um, you know, considering we'd had my my main house burnt down, um, my my main house blown down in a hurricane, um, twice. Um, uh, the fact that anything survived to be able to make such a, uh, you know, such a really full, quite, you know, really quite exciting. I think, um, docu, you know, documentary series was, um, uh, you know, I have to take my hat off to them.

and then in the uh, as I watched the the last episode of the docuseries last night, I saw you once again in typical Richard Branson style. Set yourself a new frontier, which was space, as if you, you know, as if all of that you'd done before wasn't enough. You, you decided to aim for the stars. Why?

So I remember, um, many, many, many years ago, um, when President Gorbachev was, um, uh, leader of Russia, and he was trying to bring Perestroika, um, Perestroika, uh, to, um, uh, the West and trying to br, br, um, br, b, put out peace signs. Um, he invited me to come to Russia to be the first person to go up in a Russian, um, spaceship, um, but it would have meant, uh, a big check, um, you know, 60 million, it would have meant, um, a year, um, learning Russian and being in Russia, and I just didn't have the time, that, uh, and and already, the the spare money to do something like that.

But it it did just get me thinking, um, you know, that's an inordinate amount of money to charge for somebody to go to space. But, you know, w for that kind of money, be, but we, we, why, why couldn't I just build, start building a spaceship? Um, and um, and so we registered Virgin Galactic Airways, and um, and I was set up, went, went around the world trying to see if we could find somebody to build us a spaceship.

And um, and then just found this genius, Burt Rutan. You know, to me, um, you know, I've, I've, I've, you know, always dreamt of going to space one day. Um, I think, uh, 50% of the people listening to this program will, it will, it will have, dr will have dreamt or will dream of going to space. 50% will think, we, you know, why? why on earth would you want to do that? Um, but, uh, and you know, it's it.

It was the most extraordinary day of my life, um, the the my, my trip to space, um, uh, and uh, and you know, looking back at this beautiful, beautiful earth that we live on, it was, um, uh, from space, whilst whilst floating, uh, um, at the, you know, at the flo, while whilst floating with a lovely group of people, um, uh, just an extraordinary, um, experience. And um, uh, and to be honest to, yeah, to pinch, pinch, pinch oneself moment to be doing it in a spaceship that we that we built, and um, and um, uh, and uh, yeah, it's so it it was a dream come true.

In that documentary, we're also reminded of the the cost of all of these endeavours. At a moment when there's a shot of you taking a phone call at your house, learning that, in the lead up to, um, Virgin Galactic going to space for the first time, an astronaut had died in one of the tests. It's a very emotional scene, but it it is a reminder of of, um, the cost of these great endeavours to humanity. That day, when you received that phone call and then you you rushed yourself to the to the to the site, what's on your mind?

So it's happened to me twice in my life. Um, uh, you know, I was once in a cinema in, um, uh, in Europe, uh, with my kids and I, my phone just kept, uh, kept vibrating and and and I ignored it and ignored it. And then, on the sort of third or fourth time, I I decided to walk out of the cinema and check it. Um, and one of our trains had come off the track. And, um, uh, and, you know, straight away I knew that, you know, um, I just had to get to the scene of the accident.

Um, and, you know, there were no flights that night, so we had to had to drive through the through the night. Um, and then, yeah, and um, uh, and then anyway, we got got there, um, a a early early in the morning the next day. One, uh, lady had died, and, uh, you know, and I, um, went went to the morgue to meet the relatives. And, um, you know, we we had a hug hug and, um, uh, and, um, I mean, fortunately, it turned out it wasn't actually a Virgin's fault, but, um, you know, but we're still obviously responsible for, um, the fact that it was on a Virgin train.

Um, and, um, and, uh, and then you've got to, as as owner, um, you know, t confront, talk to the press, and and um, and, but it it, I think the fact that you make the fact that you make an effort and get get there quickly, uh, is very important. And and the same when when we, uh, lost a test spaceship, um, I knew straight away, based on my previous experience with the train, that I I needed to be there as fast as possible.

Is there a conversation about discontinuing Virgin Galactic at that moment after losing that life?

Yeah, there was. I mean, uh, you know, we, I sat down with George L Whiteside and just said, you know, I is it, you know, ask ourselves questions, is it worth it, is it worth, um, you know, is it worth continuing? What What would happen if we had a second accident? Um, you know, we would never, never, never be forgiven. I mean, it would, you know, it would, um, our reputations would be destroyed. Um, um, uh, um, but then we, then we spoke with all the all the engineers, and, um, we spoke with many of the people that signed up to go to space, and and we spoke with a family, and, um, of of, um, uh, of

the pilot who'd who'd who'd lost, and with one with one voice, they said, you know, you just got to, you've got to continue. And, um, uh, and we did, and and, uh, we're still, you know, we're still, um, you know, we're still at the early stage of space travel. There's still risks. I mean, it's, uh, we we think that, um, you know, we don't, um, you know, we think that we're through all the big risks. Um, uh, you know, we've we've got a we can automatically switch off a, um, uh, an engine if, uh, you know, if if anything's wrong goes wrong with the rocket motor, just and and and we've got part we've got astronauts actually flying flying our

craft. Um, but it is, it is, it is the early stages, and, um, but, um, but I think everybody, everybody involved are doing it with their eyes open.

One of the most, um, beautiful, heart-wrenching scenes from the docuseries is, in 2021, when you are months away from your first space flight on your on your own spaceship, spacecraft, space plane, whatever whatever the terminology is. Um, you've named it after your mother, you've named the mothership after Eve. And then, tragically, um, she passes away from Covid before she has the chance to embark on that space journey with you, which she was planning to do.

That phase of your life when you lose your mother, when you lose Eve, what impact does that have on you and your mission?

Um, it, it, I mean, first of all, she'd lived a, uh, a long life, and an extraordinary life, and and so was, um, uh, yeah, uh, um, I mean, yeah, I was very, very fortunate, and our family were very fortunate to have had her around so long. Um, and, um, uh, and the absolute last thing that she would have wanted was for for, um, for the mission or any missions to be held up, um, as a result of her death.

I mean, you know, she, she will, uh, you know, if there's a s star up there, um, she'll be on it, and and I'm sure that she was th there, um, uh, there in spirit when, um, when, when, when I went to space, and she definitely would have been smiling, smiling down, down down at us with with my dad Ted. Um, and, um, uh, so, uh, yeah, and so I think when, when, when we, when we lose loved ones, we, it's, you know, we, you, you live on, you live on through your parents and your, and, um, your children live on through you, and and your grandchildren live on through your, your children, and, uh, and you know, that's the

sort of wonder, the wonders of life.

And when you came down from that space flight, um, which is detailed in your your second memoir, in the the sort of updated version which has just been updated, you wrote a letter to your mum after coming down from space. You said, Dear Mum, you always told me to reach for the stars. Well, I took my own winding road, but I always knew when to follow your lead. You always pushed us to our limits. You were always a dreamer.

You urged me to strive for every opportunity I saw. You told me to chase my wildest fantasies, to live life to the full. How you lived, how you loved, and how you are missed.

Yeah, I mean, she, um, you know, I think, uh, uh, yeah, hopefully, um, yeah, when, when people read the book, they'll think about their own, their own mums and dads, and and, um, and you know, how, how, how lucky, lucky we are to have mums and dads who sacrifice so much for us. And, um, and as, as we, as we, as we grow up, and then obviously later on in life, um, one can, you can, one can give, you know, give, give back, and and looking after them as they get a little bit older.

The docuseries was a bit of a punch in the face from the start because that because of that opening scene about your family where you're sat there ahead of your journey to space, trying to say some words to Holly, Sam and Joan, your wonderful wife and your kids, just in case you never make it back from space. This is something that you've done time and time again before you embarked on these journeys. Um, really, really difficult to watch, really difficult to watch, um, and took me by by surprise because it was so early on in the film.

Why, why was? Why is it so hard to to get those words out? Otherwise, you seem like such a composed individual, but when it came to those words, it seemed like you, you know, multiple takes, you got up, you walked away, you came back, got up, walked away and came back.

So, um, so, first of all, I, I do, uh, um, I cry at in happy films, I cry in sad films, my kids bring a box of tissues when we, when we go to the cinema or used to. Um, and, uh, so that that, I'm, I, I, so I am, um, uh, you know, even even now, just talking to you, I can feel tears in my eyes. So, um, so, um, uh, so it, it's.

It's not surprising for me to suddenly, uh, not, not be able to get my, get through my sentence sometimes. Um, but obviously, look, if you, if you're, uh, if you're reading, um, if you're, if you're, if you're speaking about as if you, as if you've died to, um, you know, to, to your kids and your grandkids, um, yeah, lots of emotions go through your head at the time of saying, of speaking. I I suspect even the emotions of my God, should I be, you know, should you know, is, is it, is it worth it?

And a lot, a lot of the, the, this documentary series is asking the question, is it selfish? Is it worth it? Is it, uh, is it, is it, is it, is it something? Um, uh, is it, is it something that, um, one should be doing? Um, I remember, um, I was in, I was just taking off on, um, to go across the Pacific in a hot air balloon and walking into this truck. And, um, Joan, Thurgood from I T N was just finishing editing my obituary, um, in case I didn't come back.

And she said, you know, Richard, do you, do you want to sit and watch the obituary? Um, and I said, why not? And, um, and, you know, I sat and watched the obituary and again had a couple of tears in my eyes at the end of it. But, um, but, um, you know, but I do think that in life, well, you know, one advantage of doing these adventures is actually you do confront the ultimate inevitability of of, um, you know, that you're not gonna be here forever.

And so you do think about, uh, you know, have I left everything in order? Um, you know, what am I gonna say to my children? What am I gonna say to my grandchildren? A lot of people don't have that opportunity cause they, they, they die suddenly. So, um, you know, so, so I have written quite a few letters over the years, uh, in thinking that I just may not come back from this adventure or that adventure.

The documentary also shone a light on Joan, who has clearly been this huge rock in your life over the years. She's a strong, tenacious, um, honest, very, uh, very to the point, wonderful woman. What does she mean to you and what has she meant to you over the last forty fifty years?

Oof, um, well, I was lucky enough to meet her forty five years ago in a recording studio, um, uh, called The Manor. Uh, walked into the kitchen and just looked across the room, and she was the most, uh, gorgeous creature I'd ever seen in my life. And it was, in instantaneous love from me to her, but, and, and it, it was, took me a while the other way around. But she's just a fantastic, down-to-earth, Glaswegian. Um, doesn't suffer fools gladly, um, complete opposite to me.

Um, you know, doesn't play tennis, doesn't, uh, run, doesn't, uh, ski, doesn't climb mountains, um, you know, doesn't go adventuring, but, you know, she's the most fantastic mother for Holly and Sam and the grandkids. Um, and, um, uh, and she knows what matters in life, you know, um, she, you know, I mean, the the, uh, in in the end, I suppose what matters is, you know, the love you can give to your children, um, uh, the food on the table, um, uh, um, yeah, but above everything, just unreserved love, um, to, to all everybody around her, and and, um, uh, and everything else is, um, uh, is icing on the cake.

You're a man synonymous with living a life worth living. One of the quotes from the film was about, you know, not living a life, um, that is full of risk is not living at all. Words to that effect. If I was Sam or Holly, your kids, and I asked you, I said, Dad, what's, um, what is a life worth living? What, what would you say to me?

I think just to f to first of all, fulfill their own, fulfill their own dreams. I mean, I mean, not, not to have their father or mother push them into things they don't want to do. So, um, you know, I was lucky. My my, my daughter wanted to be a doctor, and she, you know, she did, she did the medic, she became a doctor. Um, she now helps us with our foundation. Um, my son, um, wanted to make films, and, and, um, uh, and he's a musician, basically, which is his main love, and he, and he, he does a little bit of both of those things.

Um, they're both fantastic parents and they find the time, uh, for the grandkids. Um, so I think just to, um, you know, to to follow, to follow whatever dream it is that you have as best you can. Um, and, um, uh, and yeah, and, uh, you know, we've been lucky that our kids have, kids have, um, I think, found their found their path in life.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last last guest asks a question for the next guest, not knowing who they are asking it for. The question that has been left for you is, Where were you when you, when you felt most vulnerable and why?

I think I felt most vulnerable, um, relatively recently, um, during the, uh, about six weeks into Covid, um, when, uh, everything, everything that we'd built up, uh, looked like it was crashing down. Um, uh, and, uh, and interestingly, when, uh, the sort of British press, rather than being supportive, really, really turned on us. Um, uh, and, uh, and but fortunately, you know, my, my kids and grandkids and everybody arrived, um, on, um, at around about that same time, and, uh, and the team just got down and worked really hard day and night to make sure we kept as many jobs, um, safe as, as possible.

And, um, uh, and, uh, and I think pretty well every Virgin, uh, company got through it, and pretty well every, every employee's jobs got protected. Um, but, uh, but that was that was maybe the toughest time, um, toughest time in my life for, you know, Sud, suddenly, it just looked like one threat, your, your reputation and everything else was going out of the window. It was, it, um, but Covid was tough for so many people. And, um, um, but, um, yeah, but, but, um, we've, we've held it together.

Holly and several members of your team reference that as being, um, your toughest moment. But the word tough is just a word. If I zoomed in and if I was there, what would have, and I was you, what would I have seen and what would I have felt when you say the word tough?

Well, I think I, I, I think that, um, I, I've never understood, uh, depression, um, uh, and I, and, and I think I understood, uh, slightly, you know, where, where people get depression from after that expe experience. Um, and it was good, you know, it's good to under, you know, it's good to have gone through it myself a bit. I mean, it didn't last too long, um, uh, cause I've, you know, brought, brought, brought up by, you know, parents who'd, you know, been through the Second World War, and you couldn't waste your time, you know, getting depressed.

You know, there were much far worse things than being depressed. Um, but anyway, it, uh, it, it taught, it taught me to understand it, which I think will hopefully make me better understand other people's depression in the years to come.

What were the symptoms of that?

Ah, it, what were the symptoms of it? It's very difficult to to pinpoint the symptoms, but you know, look, you just, you just feel very sorry for yourself for a day or two, and then you just have to snap out of it and, and, and get, you know, my mum, my mum would have, if she'd been alive, um, well, which she was, but I mean, if I'd talked to her about it, she would have told me to pull myself together and just and and get back to work.

And, uh, and, um, and, uh, I think within two or three days, you know, her, her, her words would have been ringing in my head, and, and I would have, um, o overcome it, and I did overcome it. But it just, you know, it just a little, a taste of it anyway.

Richard, so Richard Branson, thank you so much for your time. Um, I you to me, you've, when I started this podcast, you were the name, you were the name that if one day I could speak to on this podcast, I think we might as well pack it up and finish. Because to me, a as a entrepreneur my whole life, you've always been the North Star of entrepreneurs. You've represented and embodied what it is to be an entrepreneur that's striving forward to create better in everything you do.

I had the pleasure of researching your story again now at thirty years old, and it's been a tremendous source of inspiration for me. Um, to meet you today, to get to come and watch your docuseries is one of the highlights of my entire entrepreneurial career and life, and definitely this podcast. So thank you so much for that, because I'm, I'm not sure you'll ever really appreciate how much of an impact you have on people like me.

Um, so I wanna make sure that I, while I have you here, I have a chance to tell you and to thank you for that cause. You've definitely changed my life, and, um, I know I'm not the only person. Um, so thank you. Your book is amazing. The docuseries was so captivating. I stayed up till about three a m last night making sure I watched all of it, and then watched get the last episode again this morning.

And I implore everybody to go and check it out. Uh, now on H B O. Um, but yeah, most important thing is, I just wanted to say thank you.

Well, th, and, uh, thank you back, and, and, um, yeah, many, many congratulations on all you've achieved and all, all, um, you being a young bastard. Uh, all all you will achieve in the years to come.

Thank you, Richard.