# #425 The Merchant Bankers - **Show:** Founders - **Published:** 19 Jul 2026 - **Source:** https://traffic.megaphone.fm/DSLLC8977529443.mp3 - **Transcript:** https://podcasts.opennash.com/shows/founders/425-the-merchant-bankers-44f24d/ - **Provider:** OpenNash Podcasts (machine-generated) ## In brief The host argues that merchant banks were built on trust, reputation and judgment rather than on capital. Drawing on Joseph Wechsberg's 1966 book The Merchant Bankers, he says the Rothschilds, Barings, Warburgs and Lehmans all began as traders. They then found that vouching for other people's deals paid better than moving goods. Their name, their contacts and their discretion were what they sold. The main tension is between the polished, gentlemanly image of these dynasties and their rough origins. The host says the founders were often cutthroats, while later generations cultivated manners and mystique. A second tension runs through the episode: the banks moved fast and kept almost nothing in writing, because they trusted people, which also made them vulnerable. The same instinct for judging character led Philip Lehman to turn Ivar Kreuger away. ## Key insights 1. **Merchant bankers sold trust, not money** In the Friday-afternoon story, a banker arranged £200,000 in three minutes by phone, with no paperwork. The Amsterdam bank would not trust the ship owner, but it trusted the merchant banker, and that gap is what he was paid to fill. 2. **Speed beat bureaucracy for small private banks** The banker says a big bank would have taken a week of committees, and the client would have lost £20,000 over the weekend. Keeping headcount small and decisions personal let these firms act while larger rivals were still processing the request. 3. **Long-term reputation outweighed any single profit** The host says these bankers would take a loss on one deal before betraying a partner they expected their descendants to deal with. He ties this to Buffett's line that you can lose a little money but not a shred of reputation. 4. **Fortunes began with outsiders willing to bend rules** The host stresses that founders smuggled gold or ran blockades. One example is Ouvrard's scheme to move Mexican silver past a British blockade by getting the Barings to negotiate with the British government. 5. **Warburg valued simplicity, dissent and young talent** S. G. Warburg preferred classics to business news and disliked yes-men. His 'nursery principle' had a junior person attend every important meeting and write it up, so he could correct their thinking. ## Questions this episode answers ### What is a merchant bank, and how is it different from a regular bank? In this episode a merchant bank is a firm that began as a trading business and then made money by guaranteeing and financing other people's deals. The host says it differs from a big bank because it relies on personal relationships and its own reputation, so it can decide quickly without committees. ### How did merchant bankers make their money? At first they earned a small commission for guaranteeing a trade through a bill of exchange, which is a written promise to pay. Later they also earned fees of roughly half a percent to 2% of a deal, and the host says their advice became as valuable as their money. ### Why did merchant bankers avoid putting things in writing? The host says they saw banking as an art that depended on trust, so they kept few papers and no files. They also wanted to keep their methods private and avoid creating a written commitment that could later become a dispute. ### What was the Spanish Mexican silver scheme? Spain owed Napoleon 72 million francs a year under an 1803 treaty and could not pay it, so the financier Gabriel-Julien Ouvrard proposed moving Mexican silver to Paris. The Barings persuaded the British government to let it through its blockade, in return for access to Latin American trade for British ships. ### Why did Philip Lehman turn down Ivar Kreuger? Lehman made notes while Kreuger talked and then refused to lend, saying that if he could not understand something from his notes he would not buy it. The host adds that Kreuger later shot himself and was behind one of history's biggest Ponzi schemes. ## Facts - **David Senra** [0:00:00]: "The Rothschilds started out as coin changers in the ghetto, the Barings and textiles, the Hambros and foodstuffs, the Warburgs and silver, and the Weschbergs began in grains." - **David Senra** [0:00:59]: "When grandfather died with his perfect sense of timing in 1913, one year before the outbreak of the First World War, he was eighty-six and he was the richest man in town and very much loved." - **David Senra** [0:01:31]: "which is The Merchant Bankers, it was written by Joseph Wechsberg. It was actually published in 1966." - **David Senra** [0:04:45]: "They would guarantee a transaction by accepting the bill of exchange for which they collected a small commission." - **David Senra** [0:07:32]: "The Rothschilds never let any outsider go through their archives. The Barings don't even bother to put their name on their letterhead." - **David Senra** [0:08:49]: "To be exact, he needed 200,000 pounds within the next half hour." - **David Senra** [0:17:56]: "So he said that him and Warren bought like this pipeline or something from Enron, and they got a call on Friday." - **David Senra** [0:39:31]: "at this time typical was they could like half of percent all the way up to like 2% of the transaction" - **David Senra** [0:30:31]: "Several times he was arrested, and one time he spent five years in jail." - **David Senra** [0:32:33]: "The British government agreed, provided that British vessels could be included in the trade with Latin American ports." - **David Senra** [0:35:23]: "He avoids business publications and ignores most newspapers." - **David Senra** [0:36:25]: "He says that Steve Jobs fired two members of the Pixar board, and the reason that he fired them surprised most people because they never disagreed with Steve." - **David Senra** [0:37:24]: "He introduced what he calls the nursery principle at his bank. One of the younger men must always be present at all important meetings." - **David Senra** [0:40:51]: "He told me that he rarely gets to the bank in the morning before eleven a m." - **David Senra** [0:43:02]: "Lehman Brothers cautiously developed the American Potash and Chemical Corporation then nursed it along until a very attractive bid was made by the Standard Oil Company of New Jersey" - **David Senra** [0:44:54]: "Swedish engineer who built a global match monopoly, mastered corporate charisma, and then secretly masterminded one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in history." - **David Senra** [0:45:42]: "If I cannot understand something by reading my notes on the subject, I won't buy it. You're too complex for me." ## Transcript **[0:00:00] David Senra:** In every merchant banking dynasty, there's one pioneer who began with nothing and died rich. The Rothschilds started out as coin changers in the ghetto, the Barings and textiles, the Hambros and foodstuffs, the Warburgs and silver, and the Weschbergs began in grains. Grandfather arrived in town in style, sitting on top of a hay cart loaded high with corn, so the author's, uh, grandfather was a merchant banker. He said people in town used to call him Albert the Benevolent because he would lend them money at 5%. **[0:00:27] David Senra:** I had no idea what that meant. Later, I heard that when Albert the Benevolent liked a man, he would lend him money without any collateral, taking a chance on the man's promise to pay him back. Later, grandfather switched from corn to credit in the manner of all merchant bankers and opened a coin changing office. Grandfather then extended the firm into the banking house A. Wechsberg and Company. The company, in the name of the firm, were exactly, as in the case of most merchant bankers, grandfather's sons who became his partners. **[0:00:59] David Senra:** One of them was my father. The bank was doing very well. When grandfather died with his perfect sense of timing in 1913, one year before the outbreak of the First World War, he was eighty-six and he was the richest man in town and very much loved. He owned land, mills, factories, houses, distilleries, stocks and bonds. Occasionally, a merchant banker puts his money on the wrong debtor, as you will read in this book. I was six, and I thought it would be nice to have such a funeral. **[0:01:31] David Senra:** He was not ashamed of his humble beginnings. When I asked him how he'd become a millionaire, he tapped his right temple, pointed his forefinger at me, and said, I used my head. Don't you ever forget that, my child? I didn't. That is an excerpt from the book that I'm going to talk to you about today, which is The Merchant Bankers, it was written by Joseph Wechsberg. It was actually published in 1966. This is the second or third time I read the book, never made an episode on it before, and I've just been fascinated by merchant bankers. **[0:01:59] David Senra:** And I'll explain why, as we go through the book, why I actually think there's a couple of the most interesting entrepreneurs that I've met today that I would classify as almost like a one-man merchant bank. But what I wanted to do this time is I bought a bunch of copies of this book, I've given them away to friends. And I was like, you know what? If I've read this book multiple times, I've given away this the the paperback version of this as gifts, I should do an episode on it. **[0:02:23] David Senra:** And the reason I didn't do an episode on it is because essentially the book is, I don't know, seven or eight different chapters. Each chapter focuses on one of the great, you know, merchant banking families throughout history. So, like the Rothschilds, the Barings, the Lehman Brothers, uh, the Hambros, Warburgs. And what I realized, uh, I spent the last two days going through all my notes and highlights. I was like, you know what? It's really confusing because there's like fifty different names in the book. **[0:02:45] David Senra:** What I'm actually most interested in is not the names and the years that some of these things happened, it's how they think and run their business. So I stripped away everything about the individual merchant banks other than how they think and what they have in common. So I'm just going to run through the book now, have deleting most of my notes and highlights, and just give you an insight into the mysterious nature of merchant banking, which I think is interesting. **[0:03:10] David Senra:** And I think they just what what what fascinates me and what attracts me to this is they have a very old school, like gentlemanly way of conducting business that I greatly admire. So I'm just going to jump into a lot of the themes that reappear throughout, you know, in some cases, these these banking dynasties. Uh, they have 200 years of history, so it goes through multiple centuries and multiple different families and merchant bankers. So I want to start with the fact that merchant banks are the most interesting and least known. **[0:03:39] David Senra:** Merchant banks are among the most mysterious phenomena. The names of some of them are almost household words, synonymous with great wealth. But what they actually do and how they make their money is a sealed book to most people outside the merchant bank and many people inside of it. The legend of the merchant bankers immediately makes one think of international intrigue, world power, kings and dictators in need of loans, empire building or empire toppling. Every loan seats a nation or upsets a throne. **[0:04:10] David Senra:** Merchant banking is a very private business that cannot and perhaps should not be defined. The truth is that merchant bankers don't mind being the mystery men. They love it. They call themselves merchants or bankers, or merchant bankers, or merchants and bankers, or they call themselves nothing. Nearly all of them started as a family business. Some did it all in one generation. Almost all merchant bankers were merchants before they came bankers. They traded with certain commodities in certain parts of the world and later found it more profitable to leave the actual trading to others and to deal in credit instead of goods. **[0:04:45] David Senra:** First, they attended to their own affairs. Later, they financed the transactions of friends and clients. This is this is uh really one of the insights that they all arrived at separately because again, they did start as merchants before they turned into merchant bankers. It is easier to sell one signature than a bale of silk, and it was also more profitable. As they grew in stature, they discovered they could borrow more cheaply than could other merchants. They would guarantee a transaction by accepting the bill of exchange for which they collected a small commission. **[0:05:11] David Senra:** This is the very beginning of merchant banking. If things went wrong, and they did occasionally, they had to pay for the bill themselves. Such a business demanded boldness and instinct, judgment and knowledge. They dealt in goods as well as in money and news. They knew the best kept secrets. Again, every single thing that I'm reading to will reappear through every single one of these families. Even the families, in many cases, they wind up knowing each other. **[0:05:35] David Senra:** Multiple generations would do business together. But even before they knew each other, they all arrived at the same conclusions on how to run their business. So again, one of the most fascinating things about this book, it covers several years of history and several different dynasties. And I just love the idea of these traits are going to be found in every single example of the book. Of all their assets, integrity and common sense were the most important. **[0:05:56] David Senra:** You could define merchant banking as a sense of commercial honor, an absolute fairness in all dealings, willingness to suffer loss if need be, rather than tarnish by one unworthy act the good name of the firm. Character was prized more than wealth. And so what I would say about that is even if they had the opportunity to screw over one of their customers or partners so they avoid a loss they what I what I admire about the way they built all these people built their businesses is like they just took like the longest view in the room It's like, okay, I'd rather lose, you know, $100,000 on this one transaction from my mistake than messing over this person **[0:06:33] David Senra:** that I've known for fifteen years that I'm doing business with today, and that most likely my descendants will be doing business with their the descendants of their family. It's just a very long-term view that I think, again, is exceedingly rare. Uh, it not only in today's age, but in human nature in general. Confidence, absolute confidence at first between father and son, later between brothers, and later still between partners in different countries. That line absolute confidence is really important because a lot of the businesses that they're doing there's no paper they actually don't like keeping records and a lot of this is because there's like a merchant banking they repeat it again over and over again that it's more of an **[0:07:08] David Senra:** art than a science and they don't want to let people in on they call it like the magic I actually read this uh this quote that appears over and over again in the books that says we must not let in daylight upon magic that is still the motto Bankers are laconic people who only say 10% of what they think. Much of what merchant bankers do is inevitably never made public. And I just love these two sentences that kind of demonstrate the previous point. **[0:07:32] David Senra:** The Rothschilds never let any outsider go through their archives. The Barings don't even bother to put their name on their letterhead. Before we get back into this, I want to tell you about the presenting sponsor of this podcast, Ramp. I have been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. SpaceX is one of the most valuable businesses in the world, and one of the main themes in the history of SpaceX is constantly attacking and questioning your cost. Ramp helps many of the most innovative businesses in the world do exactly that, and they do this by using first principles thinking. **[0:08:01] David Senra:** The median company running on ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And one thing that SpaceX has demonstrated is that a religious dedication to controlling your cost helps increase revenue because you can pursue opportunities you couldn't otherwise, and we see that in the ramp data too. The median company running on ramp also grows their revenue by 16%. So when you're running your business on ramp and your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive advantage that compounds over time. **[0:08:27] David Senra:** Ramp is the only platform designed to make your finance team faster and happier. Many of the top founders and CEOs that I know run their business on ramp. I run my business on ramp, and you should too. Go to ramp dot com today to learn how they can help your business save time, save money, and grow revenue. That is ramp dot com. And so here's a story that actually gives you insight into some of what merchant bankers do. **[0:08:49] David Senra:** It was Friday afternoon. Suddenly, the phone rang. It was an urgent personal call from Norway. A prominent ship owner was on the line. He needed help at once. To be exact, he needed 200,000 pounds within the next half hour. Most of these merchant bankers are European. He told the manager that one of his ships had undergone repairs at a big Amsterdam shipyard. A few minutes ago, he had got a call from his captain. The Amsterdam shipyard would not release the ship unless a cash payment was made of 200,000 pounds. **[0:09:18] David Senra:** Otherwise, the ship would be tied up for the weekend, and the owner would lose at least 20,000 pounds, the cost of two days of charter and expenses for the crew, not to mention the loss of the profit. So now the merchant banker's on the phone, says he looked at the clock and said, It's getting late, but I'll see whether I can catch anyone at a bank in Amsterdam. Stay on the phone. So he literally has the phone to his ear, okay? **[0:09:39] David Senra:** Picks up a second phone. On the second phone, he dictated to a secretary in the bank a message to the Amsterdam bank. Please pay $200,000 on behalf of this shipyard, or to the shipyard, rather, on understanding that the name of this ship will be released at once. So that's the message he's saying to his banker in Amsterdam. That the money's coming from him, okay? This done, he put down the second receiver and told the Norwegian on the long-distance phone to have a little patience. **[0:10:07] David Senra:** Within three minutes, the second phone rang. Somebody in the bank in Amsterdam confirmed that they had already telephoned to the shipyard that 200,000 pounds was at their disposal. Remember, this is happening late on a Friday afternoon in three minutes with no paper, no contract. This is so important. So then the merchant banker says, thanks, puts down the receiver and told the Norwegian on the other phone that the payment of 200,000 had been arranged in Amsterdam and that the yard would release his ship in any minute. **[0:10:34] David Senra:** And he wraps up the call, he's like, Don't worry, glad to help you, no bother at all. Now, while he's doing this, there is a young regular banker from Germany sitting in his office observing this, right? And he did not familiar with the merchant banking or what they were doing. And so when he hangs up the phone, the transaction's done just a few minutes, right? So now this young German bank manager is like, what the hell is going on? **[0:10:56] David Senra:** He said he had listened first with interest, then with wonderment, and finally with dismay. Now he seemed absolutely petrified. And he says, I could give you a half a dozen reasons why I would be immediately dismissed from my bank if I'd done what you just did. How can you be sure that you really talked to the ship owner in Norway? It's easy to imitate a voice over the phone. This is hilarious that they're saying this. Remember, these words are written in 1966. **[0:11:17] David Senra:** Imagine what it'd be like today. How do you know he's good for the 200,000 pounds? And worst of all, you didn't even check with your superiors. And then the response, I think, gives you an insight into how merchant bankers operate, how they think, and again, how they're differentiated from other areas of finance. If I had waited half an hour longer, it would have been too late to arrange the credit in Amsterdam. Our client would have lost 20,000 pounds over the weekend, and we might have lost a good client. **[0:11:43] David Senra:** He comes to us because we can give him fast personal service. I couldn't tell him, I'll call you back. That's exactly what the big banks would have done. It would have taken them a week, it would have processed his request through all these channels and committee meetings. If we acted like that, we would be out of business in a couple years. This is the most important part of the book, and what I am most interested in is the fact that the entire business runs on trust, trust and reputation. **[0:12:10] David Senra:** You should see my notes in this book. One of the most interesting things Charlie Munger ever said. He's just like, you just never even think of it like this. It like jarred into my memory. I remember like being shocked when it when I finally understood what he was saying. He said that trust is one of the greatest economic forces on earth. This is a great example of that. Merchant banker speaks to the German banker. I've known the Norwegian ship owner for years. **[0:12:31] David Senra:** I trust him. We have no large bureaucracy inside our bank, but a vast network outside. We know a lot about a lot of people, and we rely on the prestige of our name. People trust us. Again, the most valuable asset and one that they will never sacrifice. Go back to remember that that um that hearing, I think it was in front of Congress, uh, where Buffett was testifying on behalf of Sal Solomon Brothers when they had that huge scandal that's covered in like every life story of Buffett. **[0:13:00] David Senra:** And he would tell people in the firm, it's like you can lose a little money, you cannot lose a shred of our reputation. It is the most valuable thing that we that we own. Is Buffett and Munger have this like old school way of thinking that is very much in line with again going back hundreds of this book that I'm holding in my hand I've actually holding Kindle covers hundreds of years of finance It's a very interesting reoccurring way to think about business I think it's very very valuable Um now this is also the key is like okay well why is this guy sitting inside the middle of this transaction and getting paid to do this right The bank that **[0:13:35] David Senra:** he called in Amsterdam might not trust the ship owner, the ship owner that was on the phone, the ship owner that's on the phone might not even be able to get access to the bank, right? And so the difference is like they might not trust the ship owner, but they trust us. That is the basic function of the merchant bank. And so if you think about the importance of trust and reputation, another thing that I would add to this is discretion. **[0:13:57] David Senra:** They keep secrets, they have access. for example, at this point, one of the merchant banks is like, hey, we really don't want deposits less than like 10,000 pounds, but friends and their friends are always welcome. **[0:16:16] David Senra:** So again there are really no the reason the maximum relationships around the world is so interesting is because you realize that like at anything that you need to do like there is a per person that can actually make that decision where they may have policy or procedures or rules for other people that just don't apply this is how humans are like they bend and they'll massage and they'll things are way more malleable than you can possibly think if you have a relationship with a person it's like okay well I can't get into Hambros book uh banking for example because you know I don't meet the minimum requirement but that minimum requirement isn't set in stone it's like well yeah but **[0:16:50] David Senra:** you're friends with a guy that they've been working with for three decades and that guy just asked the head the people at Hambros favor guess what you get in there the merchant bank offers above all trust a lot of the business is done with very little paperwork however tired you get hearing that their word is their bond the custom of verbal contracts is one of the planks of the banking system The merchant banker's business is based on this anatomy of trust. **[0:17:12] David Senra:** Merchant bankers are basically trustful optimists. And again, I think this is one of the most interesting ideas that go back to the to the Charlie Munger thing, that trust is one of the greatest economic uh factors in the world. Also, it's simple trust simplifies things. And they they had a great way to one of the merchant bankers that's interviewed in the book has a great way to think about this. He goes, Lawyers like to complicate matters, we like to simplify them. **[0:17:33] David Senra:** I love that line. Lawyers like to complicate matters, we like to simplify them. In fact, let me I'm gonna pull something up right now because that reminded me of something when I had dinner with Charlie Munger. Uh I have this like pinned note on my phone that I go back and like reread, like all the stuff that I learned that night. And one of the things he I didn't mean even put this together, so there's now uh it was me and two other entrepreneurs that were having dinner with Charlie, and he gave us advice. **[0:17:56] David Senra:** He says, Don't let lawyers kill deals. So he said that him and Warren bought like this pipeline or something from Enron, and they got a call on Friday. They needed to send the money first thing Monday morning, right? Uh, over the weekend, and they sent, they said, he said that Warren wired the money without even an email. And the lawyers, if they went and could tell the lawyers, they're like, oh, you know, you could be responsible. **[0:18:21] David Senra:** What if this thing explodes? Or there's all these, like, you know, all the liability you could be, um, that you know, you could be on the hook for. And because Warren trusted the person that was bringing him the deal, he sent the money without an email. And then between like bites of his food I think like I think he had a mouthful of food when he said this He's like yeah we made a few 100 million on that deal You know one phone call based on a network of trust sending a wire and a few 100 million in profit So lawyers like to complicate matters we like to simplify them I love that The merchant bank's most important assets the **[0:18:54] David Senra:** experience of the experts inside the bank and its outside contacts don't show up on the balance sheet What do they mean about outside contacts They're constantly collecting information about the people around them, the people that they may be doing business with. That's why reputation is so goddamn important. We have ways of finding out more about him than the big banks. We've looked at his business, his customers, his special transactions, the monthly statements. We keep track of him. **[0:19:18] David Senra:** Uh, the big banks won't do this. They don't have the accumulated experience. They will turn down tempting offers that don't seem to belong to them. If somebody comes in with a promising scheme for Brazil, we tell them to go elsewhere. We do not know enough about Brazil. And then they consciously keep head count and the size of the bank limited. If one g, this is why if one gets too big, one loses flexibility. There is a great line where a merchant banker is describing another company that they could be doing business with, which really, to me, is not about that company, it is about the merchant bank. **[0:19:49] David Senra:** So it says often the company is sound but does not project its image effectively. Merchant bankers control and protect their image. There's a great line about this in uh Ben Franklin's uh autobiography actually he says I took care not only to be in reality industrious and frugal but to avoid all appearances to the contrary this this this mysteriousness this secrecy this not writing anything down they are very every single one of these families and every single one of these merchant banks control their image they want to be very deliberate how they are perceived by other people outside of their company Uh, the bank's special situations department likes to nurse promise. **[0:20:24] David Senra:** Oh, this is very interesting, too. Because when they said, you know, what is what is the really the business? It's like, well, anything that involves money and where we think we have an edge, where we can use our trust and reputation or discretion or contacts, then they will do. And so it's like, if you see my notes, like, I just say the same notes over and over again. Money and advice and trust and relationships. They'll also incubate companies, but we'll get to that in a minute. **[0:20:45] David Senra:** So it says the bank's special situations department likes to nurse promising ideas from birth to a moderate success as a private company and finally to a big success as a public company. In the past, this was done exclusively with money. Now it's done with money and advice, and the advice is often more valuable than the money. And they describe this with this metaphor. We became marriage brokers. We arrange amalgamations. This is a process of economic cross-fertilization. **[0:21:09] David Senra:** Also interesting, they don't want control. We take minority interests. We believe that management should be left to the managers. We try anything that generates the making of money, and in the process, we sometimes lose money again. So if we go back to hey, we try anything that generates the making of money. Buffett and Munger said we are individual opportunity driven. Merchant bankers love to reminisce about the colorful coos of their ancestors. Almost every house has a supply of fascinating stories. **[0:21:34] David Senra:** So I am not a fancy person. I kind of find that repulsive. I just like to be the one doing the work, kind of keep my life as simple as possible, just like sit in a room, make podcasts. And if I do that for, you know, multiple decades, I'll get the score will take care of itself. I'll get everything I want out of life, and it's what I happen to be obsessed with and addicted to doing. **[0:21:50] David Senra:** And so this is what I do. And I don't like this like pomp and circumstance and all this like fancy shit. And what's fascinating is what they're saying, oh, we love to reminisce about our ancestors. So they have, like, all this kind of like different ways to move through society, this manners, it's like you don't you should do X, Y, and Z, you don't do A, B, Z. And what's hilarious is, you know, that's like the third, fourth, fifth, sixth generation of these merchant bankers. **[0:22:13] David Senra:** The person that built the merchant bank is in many cases like doing illegal shit, uh, but they're cutthroats. And so it goes back to this idea that they're all merchants before they were bankers. And so what my favorite description of this is like, I'm obsessed with Game of Thrones. It's, you know, if you go back and listen to all these episodes, founders, you'll see me constantly reference it. Actually, it plays a huge role in my life. **[0:22:34] David Senra:** I read all the books, read through the encyclopedias, the family histories. Like, I kind of got obsessed with it, like I do with anything that I'm interested in. This is the way I think about what they're talking about here, which is so fascinating. It's like, okay, you're the fourth, fifth generation, but who made the money? Who made your family rich, right? How did the book start? Somebody started out with nothing and they fucking died rich. And there's one of my favorite scenes comes towards the end of Game of Thrones. **[0:23:01] David Senra:** And you have it's this conversation between Jamie Lannister and his brother Tyrion who come from you know one of the wealthiest families in Westeros. You're talking now probably I don't know eighth generation tenth generation or forgot but like their family's been rich for two centuries or whatever the case is. And then if you want to go back if you're interested in Game of Thrones and you want to know like who I think is the most entrepreneurial character like if you could say if they were gonna write a book uh about a person and that person was gonna be on founders you know who would it be so this guy named Braun he's relatively minor character born in you know Flea **[0:23:35] David Senra:** Bottom with nothing And if you just watch him just watch him from the first time he appears in the early show and where he winds up eight seasons later and you see the climb the same climb that's in all these books that's in front of me all these books that are behind me right and this is what's so fascinating it's like you guys you know like oh we like to reminisce about them but like we're so you're so different from them it's just like yeah but why like why was your house built and I I think the the I'll just read you the note I left my phone And so Jamie Lannister basically Braun is holding them up and he's **[0:24:08] David Senra:** like hey we're gonna do a deal and I want you to give me high garden which is like one of the most valuable assets in the in their world right and Jamie who comes from a rich family is looking at this poor upstart and he's just like high garden will never belong to a cutthroat you know it's kind of like the way that these third fourth fifth sixth generation merchant bankers are from these family dynasties may look at other people but not realizing what their ancestors were right And Braun's response was perfect. **[0:24:34] David Senra:** He goes, No, who were your ancestors? The ones who made your family rich, fancy lads in silk, they were fucking cutthroats. That's how all the great houses started. So I'm not gonna read you these stories, but in uh in it's in this book, where, again, it's like, well, how the R the Rothschilds, the Barings, in many cases, they're like smuggling gold or uh uh illegally transferring uh materials through uh like blockades during wars. There's all kinds, they were cutthroats. **[0:25:05] David Senra:** That's how all the great houses were built is a very fascinating part of this book, I think is important to remember. Uh, going back to this, ideas are merchant bankers' lifeblood. It goes back to the fact that they collect information, they collect trust. Again, if we think about how you collect, why is trust and reputation so important, right? If somebody trusts you and they first of all, they have you have a good reputation, then you build a relationship with them. **[0:25:28] David Senra:** You start to uh they start to trust you, they're going to provide you information. And part of that is ideas for different opportunities different deals you could do different people uh in their case financing the trade of entrepreneurs it's excessively important they talk about the uh new ideas being the lifeblood the fact that they really have no assets other than the people that are in the bank the skill set the brains the reputation of those people and I also like how they structure their business here's a description the merchant banks are this ideal combination of efficient and unbureaucratic think back to that story You called me up on a Friday afternoon, you need 200,000 pounds. **[0:26:03] David Senra:** I pick up the other phone, I write, arrange this transaction for you in three minutes. I hang up, I go about my day. That is efficient and unbureaucratic. And then again, we're deep into the book now, and you see the same thing repeating over and again. No one outside the family knows how the truly important decisions are made. And this this other family says the same thing is that the family at the very beginning. Why would you let daylight upon the magic? **[0:26:23] David Senra:** To me, this is a very civilized way of doing business. In one merchant bank, all letters are opened in the morning and shown to all partners. There are very few papers and no files. We carry most information in our heads. Risk are assessed, opinions exchanged, solutions found in quiet conversation, not after long speeches and committee meetings. There is no chain of command. No matters are cleared through channels. This is a very civilized way of doing business. **[0:26:45] David Senra:** If I want to talk to one of my partners, I don't have my secretary call up his secretary before we talk on the phone, like the directors do in those super bureaucracies. They just do everything is handled in a quiet conversation directly between the two people that can actually make the decision. Goes back to the relationships around the world. If a man has been an old customer and a friend, we'll do anything for him. Even when money is tight, we don't take advantage of him. **[0:27:07] David Senra:** We are very, very jealous of our name. It's the name of the merchant banker that builds a magic bridge between buyer and seller. They may not trust one another, but they trust us. And before we get back into this, I want to tell you about Applovin. One of my all-time favorite quotes is from the book zero to one. In that book, Peter Thiel writes, he says the single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places, and they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas. **[0:27:36] David Senra:** And that is exactly what Applovin has done with their advertising platform. App Loving connects you with over a billion potential new customers in mobile games. App Love allows you to capture undivided attention. App loving ads are full screen videos that are watched for an average of thirty five seconds. That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water, and you can launch on App Love in minutes. You set the goal, and App Love achieves it. **[0:28:01] David Senra:** No complex setup, no expertise needed. And App Love scales quickly. They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers. Other businesses have seen immediate results, scale to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day and increase their revenue by millions. So you want to get started quickly before all of your competitors are on App Love. And you can do that by going to Applovin dot com. That's Applovin dot com. And then I want to tell you about Vanta. **[0:28:26] David Senra:** Vanta, Vanta, Vanta. Vanta helps your company prove you're secure, so more customers will use your product or service. Vanta is an AI powered security expert that scales with you. The more your business grows, the more complex your security needs get, and that complexity turns into chaos. Vanta tames that chaos for you. Vanta automates compliance, continuously monitors your controls, and gives you a single source of truth for compliance and risk. So whether you're a fast growing startup or an enterprise company, Vanta fits easily into your existing workflows. **[0:28:56] David Senra:** Many companies won't sign contracts unless you're certified, and this is causing you to lose out on sales. That is why the average Vanta customer reports 526% return on investment after becoming a Vanta customer. Automate your compliance, security, and trust with Vanta. Vanta will help you win trust, close deals, and stay secure faster and with less effort. Go to Vanta dot com slash founders, and you'll get a thousand off. That is Vanta dot com forward slash founders. **[0:29:21] David Senra:** This is a one sentence description about the proper way to be a merchant banker. Nothing is more like itself, nothing less like anything else. The secret of the successful merchant banker is to find out a little more, a little earlier than the next man. And again, the people that start these companies, the what the actual founders of them are all eccentric, and you know, many of them are cutthroats. There's one great story I have to tell you about. **[0:29:43] David Senra:** It goes on for quite a while, but I'll give you like the synopsis of it. It's called the greatest financial adventure of all. So it says the most fantastic transaction in the whole history of merchant banking was a transfer of the Spanish Mexican silver treasure. It is one of the great financial adventure stories, and surely the most unusual. And it came up by this guy, they call him a formidable French. I got to find a book on this guy. **[0:30:04] David Senra:** He keeps getting put in jail, and uh, quite an interesting character, but they call him a formidable Frenchman. His name is Gabriel Julian Orvard. There's no way I'm pronouncing his last name correctly. Uh, so he had this idea. So they first describe him that he was a financial genius and perhaps the most controversial entrepreneur of his time. He provisioned Napoleon's armies, negotiated enormous credits, thought up incredible deals, and carried out bizarre transactions. His contemporaries could not agree on him. **[0:30:31] David Senra:** They would call him my closest advisor or a cheat. Several times he was arrested, and one time he spent five years in jail. He went bankrupt, made another fortune, lost it again. He had more ideas than principles. And all these different European conquerors and dictators, it says he worked for them all, all needed his help and money, and he survived them all. A symbol of financial durability, though not of personal integrity. He was a type of international financier that still exists who is ready to work for anybody who needs his advice and pay well for his service. **[0:31:00] David Senra:** So the scheme that he comes up with, he says the story of the Spanish Mexican silver treasure begins in the early days of the nineteenth century when Spain was forced to take sides against England in the Peninsular War. Under the Treaty of October nineteenth, eighteen zero three, Spain was obligated to pay an annual subsidy of 72 million francs to Napoleon. Why the treaty was ever signed, no one of sound mind could understand. It was common knowledge that Spain would never be able to raise such a sum. **[0:31:26] David Senra:** So if I'm Spain, I got to pay Napoleon 72 million francs a year. I don't have that money. What I do? Well, the income is Orvard, or however you pronounce his name, came up with this ingenious idea. Obviously, France would never be able to collect the money from Spain, but Spain owned gold and silver mines in its colonies in Mexico and Peru. Large amounts of silver were known to be stored in Veracruz. Orvard pointed out that all one had to do was get the Mexican silver treasure out of Veracruz and bring it to Paris. **[0:31:51] David Senra:** Okay, that sounds pretty simple. Let's send some boats over there. There's a British blockade. You can't. So you have to go through the British blockade in the middle of war. And if you could do that, it's as easy as that. But this again goes back to relationships around the world and that rules are malleable, a lot more malleable than we think. So, okay, I already have this relationship with Spain. I already know I can grant they have a need. **[0:32:12] David Senra:** They got to pay Napoleon 72 million francs, right? I can get ships. The only thing is, how the hell do I get through this British blockade? Well, who do I know that has a relationship with the British government? So then he goes and he builds and he talks to the Barings, which is another merchant banking family. The major obstacle was now the British blockade, but Orvore was certain that the Barings could probably make a deal with the British government. **[0:32:33] David Senra:** The Barings agree, and then they what they do is they go to the British government and they appeal to their interest, and the British government agrees. Why? The British government agreed, provided that British vessels could be included in the trade with Latin American ports. It was an interesting operation, well thought out and beautifully executed. It lasted three years, and by eighteen zero eight, almost all the silver and gold had been removed from the Mexican treasury. And in a twist, only Orvard, who had thought up the grand scheme, got not a penny out of it. **[0:33:02] David Senra:** Once again, Napoleon quarreled with his brilliant banker, confiscated his property, and put him into jail. And then a few pages later, there's a great line about again, the importance of these relationships, the building relationships with the people that are in charge and in places that can actually make the decisions that get these deals done. The merchant bankers had valuable contacts from prime ministers down to the local chiefs of police. They always knew the right people in the right places at the right times. **[0:33:26] David Senra:** And it is through these relationships with the right people at the right places at the right times that they're collecting all this very valuable proprietary information. Here's one example. The Barings had a widespread intelligence network. They knew some of the best kept secrets. Their deals often seem so audacious that everybody was astonished until it became apparent much later that they had acted on the basis of sound advanced information and knew exactly what they were doing. And then there's a great line that describes that this just business runs on understanding humans. **[0:33:51] David Senra:** It says it's difficult to be explicit about this, but the whole question is very much a matter of feel. And so one thing that is very interesting. I'm actually going to talk about a specific person right now, this guy named uh SG Warburg. But I'm using him as an example because how many of the merchant bankers felt that reading almost all of them like are voracious readers reading history and philosophy and the classics is way better than reading about business because it gives you an understanding of humans and that is what is that like essentially they're having to constantly decide can I trust this other human can I rely on him can is it good to get into business engage **[0:34:29] David Senra:** in business with this person And so it says even Warburg's banking associates are often puzzled when he admits being prouder of his thorough knowledge of the classics and of English and German literature than of his widely admired skill in banking. He considers a working knowledge of Greek and Latin a better preparation for merchant banking than a study of modern finance management techniques and economics. Classical education is a wonderful thing Warburg said. It helps you to develop a logical thinking and to perceive quickly and accurately what you read. **[0:34:57] David Senra:** He emphatically opposes the widespread belief that to think deeply means to think in a complicated way. In fact, the chapter on this guy's life, the very first sentence in the chapter is a great, probably one of my favorite lines of the book. Progress in thinking is progress towards simplicity. Simplicity combined with thoroughness has helped Warburg more than anything else in life. To think deeply means to think lucidly, he says. Warburg has strong opinions on what to read and what to ignore. **[0:35:23] David Senra:** He reads books on history and philosophy. He loves good fiction and good poetry. He avoids business publications and ignores most newspapers. He used to read a lot of newspapers before the war, but came to the conclusion that newspaper reading leads to a gradual loss of memory. Since most people read the paper with the subconscious wish of trying to forget as fast as possible what they read he spends many pleasant weekends reading and rereading the books he loves people often ask Warburg how a modern successful merchant banker can get along without a thorough daily study of contemporary politics economics and finance and I love this part he he says I keep my ears open people tell me everything that's important Warburg **[0:36:01] David Senra:** is an enthusiastic nonconformist he wants to be right and doesn't mind being different in his scheme of things theory and practice must always mesh Warburg does not like to be surrounded by yes men. This is another thing that reappears throughout the book. Uh, actually, one of my favorite uh conversations I had recently was with Ed Catmull, the founder of Pixar. If you haven't listened to that conversation, uh, I had with him on my other show, you definitely should listen to it. **[0:36:25] David Senra:** And one of the most fascinating things that Ed Catmull told me about was the fact that in the ten years when Pixar was public, so goes public, they're a public company for ten years before they're acquired by Disney. He says that Steve Jobs fired two members of the Pixar board, and the reason that he fired them surprised most people because they never disagreed with Steve. And Steve's point was if they all if they agree with me, they're serving no purpose. **[0:36:48] David Senra:** So therefore, they can't be on the board. And again, Warburg says this a bunch of other other merchant bankers. They want differing opinions. And another thing that Warburg says is that influence is more important than power. Another thing he says, men of talent are often complex and hard to understand. When building his company, he prioritized youth. If you listen to my episode on the founder of Honda uh last week or two weeks ago the founder of Honda would repeat this over and over again he believed that you had to hire young people and you had to give them real authority to change the company Warburg it says very similar things calls this youth and team spirit Warburg's organization reflects his **[0:37:24] David Senra:** innermost belief in youth and the team spirit youth to Warburg means just that men in their late twenties he collects able young people with the same enthusiasm that other rich men show for old paintings Warburg calls youth the greatest strength of our firm. Warburg is a born teacher and never stops tutoring. He introduced what he calls the nursery principle at his bank. One of the younger men must always be present at all important meetings. Afterwards, he is asked to write a lengthy memo of the meeting. **[0:37:52] David Senra:** Warburg himself will then correct the wording as carefully as a professor going over his students' homework. He does this because he says the good Lord lives in the detail. Warburg cannot stand incompetence of any kind. He has no patience with people who do not know their job. He never loses a big battle because he is always prepared meticulously for victory. His organization works almost with the precision of a Swiss watch. There is no touch of amateurism. **[0:38:18] David Senra:** He rarely enjoys the fruit of victory. After twenty four hours, while his associates are still celebrating, he goes back to worrying. And again, we see the same idea over and over again. Warburg calls new ideas the bloodstream of a merchant bank. He believes in strong praise and strong criticism. A friend once told him that your strength in business is that you do not change your coat when you leave your home. You are always the same man. **[0:38:42] David Senra:** He likes to be with stimulating people and loves the forgotten art of conversation. Some of the best advice he ever got is that if you have to choose which way to go, always ask yourself first, which is the harder and choose that one. It will be the right choice. Another favorite piece of advice coming from his mother. Before you pray, my child, ask yourself what you did wrong today and could have done better. All of us make mistakes every day. **[0:39:04] David Senra:** one must be critical about one's mistakes. warburg says that happiness is not the fulfillment of desires, but the fulfillment of duties. he says management is made up of people and people are unfathomable. and then i thought this part was interesting in terms of compensation. it says fees are not mentioned until the operation is completed. a great surgeon first saves a multimillionaire's life and then sends him the bill. the merchant banker often saves this multimillionaire's financial life. **[0:39:31] David Senra:** And so in many cases when they're arranging these deals or this financing they usually take something from like at at this time typical was they could like half of percent all the way up to like 2% of the transaction and the fees they collect are for a combination of not only for helping with financing but the advice that they're offering and so in this case like the war you want warburg on your on your in your deals just because of his mind uh so they pay attention to what he said because they know he will not utter a single superfluous word Big people gladly pay a premium for lucidity of thought and economy of expression. **[0:40:02] David Senra:** Warburg clarifies, never merely simplifies complicated matters. Warburg means literally what he says, which is a phenomenon in this loosely talking age. And so then I came across another character in the book that I have to tell you about. This guy named Raphael Mat Matteoli, they call him the master of paradox. I just want to read through a couple of I think a lot of these highlights just give you an insight again. The personality types that go into this very unique and mysterious uh trade. **[0:40:30] David Senra:** Uh, when Mattioli is neither at home nor at his bank, he is apt to be at his publishing house, which is conveniently situated just a few doors away. In fact, all three buildings, his publishing house, his bank, and his house are on the same block. So days can go by, which he doesn't even need to cross the street. I gather that his daily routine is as unorthodox as everything else about the man. Again, this they're embracing the fact that they're unorthodox. **[0:40:51] David Senra:** He told me that he rarely gets to the bank in the morning before eleven a m. At one o'clock, he walks home for a quiet lunch with his wife, and after that, he takes a siesta. He then returns to his office at around five in the afternoon and stays until ten or later. Those hours in which the bank is empty, except for the night watchmen are the time to do some really constructive banking, he said enthusiastically. **[0:41:11] David Senra:** He is fond of paradox and leads to the suspicion that he enjoys confusing people. We bankers are fond of pretending that we know everything. I always try to remember the advice of my father who told me that a man should never be afraid to admit that he doesn't understand something particularly if he knows all about it. That is a great line. And we see this distaste for yes men again. He does not tolerate any yes men around him. **[0:41:35] David Senra:** And one of his managing directors confided to me that he always thinks twice before saying that he agrees with the boss because the consequences can be very unpleasant. I don't like people who deliberately try to think in my way Mattioli told me. Besides, why should I pay a man for thinking the way I do? I can do that for myself. It would be a waste of money. Sundays and holidays mean nothing to him. He tends to become even more caustic. **[0:41:59] David Senra:** He tends to become even more caustic than usual when any of his executives indicate that they would like to take a vacation. Recently, when one man broke a leg on the last day of a long vacation, Mattioli proclaimed the accident an act of poetic justice. He says that money means nothing unless it is being used. And he's another example of one of these merchant bankers that think you should just be reading history and philosophy and stay away from, you know, any of the business publications and the newspapers. **[0:42:25] David Senra:** Uh, I love there's all these other ways that they're describing their own profession. And I think this is a great way to think about merchant banking. Says Wall Street produces money in a much bigger, more impersonal way. It's like the difference between a handmade Rolls Royce and a production line Cadillac. So let's go back to this idea that they leverage their relationships and they are individual opportunity driven so they will also incubate companies as well so this is a story from Lehman Brothers way before they collapsed they were a successful merchant bank said Lehman Brothers had the imagination and the courage to tackle such ventures years ago it embarked upon a thorough study of the potash industry that lasted for **[0:43:02] David Senra:** months so this is this chemical that is used it improves plant growth and uh increases crop yields So they see an opportunity here they put together the company and then Lehman Brothers cautiously developed the American Potash and Chemical Corporation then nursed it along until a very attractive bid was made by the Standard Oil Company of New Jersey so leveraging the relationships they have and the information they collect they'll also make the bets if they don't see anybody else doing it there's a great line a few pages later uh reflecting on some of the most successful deals in merchant bank history Says the funny thing is that the hardest things to raise money for often turn out to be the best. **[0:43:37] David Senra:** And again, we see this constant hounding on learning from history and reading literature is actually the best preparation for this trade. He considers literature and history excellent approaches to investment banking. I get tired of people who think that banking is accounting. Banking is imagination. And then what's also funny is how they take a long-term view on relationships, but then they make the mistake of not taking a long-term view on some of the assets that they actually owned. **[0:44:01] David Senra:** And so they're going through all the mistakes they made because again they talk over and over again like you're not there's no you're you're going to make mistakes in this business like if you're not comfortable with that you have to find something else and and it really true for any business then if you don't want to make mistakes then you can't move you just have to sit on the couch all day so they said we could own 20% of these giants today's and be billionaires unfortunately we did not keep the shares that made me think of one of my favorite quotes came from Nick Sleep He says the best investors aren't investors at all they're entrepreneurs who **[0:44:28] David Senra:** never sold another common theme in some of their greatest deals they were doing many things that more conventional bankers ignored and then back to secrecy and discretion and lack of paperwork no bureaucracy there is a widespread aversion to putting anything in writing everybody is constantly aware of the uncomfortable commitment of the written word don't write a memo that might someday become a source of conflict And it goes back to having a fundamental understanding of humans and try to keep things simple. **[0:44:54] David Senra:** So, Ivar Kruger. So you you might know this name. I actually just uh looked this up. So on episode 348, actually, when I looked this up, the summary of the episode is actually pretty good. So on episode 348, I covered the biography, which is called The Match King, Ivar Kruger, uh, the financial genius behind a century of Wall Street scandals. Uh, he was a Swedish engineer who built a global match monopoly, mastered corporate charisma, and then secretly masterminded one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in history. **[0:45:21] David Senra:** So he comes to Lehman Brothers, and he wants money. And the the actual patriarch of the bank is the one sitting on the meeting, and he they said he had a sixth sense for people. So it says one day, Ivar Kruger came in and asked Lehman to be his banker. Kruger talked and talked and talked while Lehman made a few notes on a piece of paper. When Kruger had finished, he sat back and looked at the banker. **[0:45:42] David Senra:** Philip Lehman shook his head and said the answer was no. I have a rule, Mr. Kruger. If I cannot understand something by reading my notes on the subject, I won't buy it. You're too complex for me. Mr. Kruger left, and a few months later, shot himself. And that is where I'll leave it. Highly recommend reading the book. That is 425 books down, one thousand to go, and I'll talk to you again soon.