DBS CEO: Transforming Southeast Asian Banking, Embracing Diversity and Balancing AI with Humanity

Hi everyone, I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund. And today I'm in particularly good company because I am in Singapore. And I'm speaking to Su Shan, who's the CEO of DBS, the largest bank in this part of the world. And not only that, Su Shan is one of the most important and powerful women in global finance. So big thank you for taking the time.

Yeah, I always, uh, yeah, it's not, it's I'm not comfortable with that, but okay.

Well, that's just a fact, that's just a fact. Su Shan, um, DBS, tell us about it.

So we were formed two, three years after Singapore was born in 1965. DBS was the development bank of Singapore, uh, really to develop Singapore. In those days, we were a small, uh, unindustrialized little island, um, and I guess we have evolved, um, from our development roots now to being the largest commercial bank in Southeast Asia. Um, but I like to use the D word because DBS, you know, although it stands for Development Bank of Singapore, I think we have evolved.

I think we've gone from being a development bank now to being a very digital bank. I like to think we are a disruptive bank, but I also want us to remain the dependable bank and also the data bank of the future.

how have you helped develop Singapore?

Well, in the initial days of Singapore's uh, birth, uh, independence, um, in 1965, we knew that as a small country with nothing, we had no natural resources. The only thing we had were humans, were human beings. So you have to open up for trade, you have to open up for talent. So if people, goods and services, and money, financial hub, if you can build a financial hub, a trade hub, ports, you'll get people, you get talent, you get g d p growth, you get jobs.

So that's how we we started. And our early development roots, we were, you know, with we were part of the economic development board was to grow Singapore industry, whether it was support authority of Singapore, whether it was Singapore Airlines, um, all the new industrial growth, growth parks, industry parks. Uh, in the seventies and eighties, was a lot of manufacturing. We were financing a lot of manufacturers. We were bringing in M N Cs, you know, from from Europe, from from your part of the world, from the U S, from Japan.

Setting up factories here, going from kind of middle, uh, to high-end manufacturing, precision manufacturing, electronic manufacturing, um, and then increasingly moving into services.

What do you think other countries can learn from Singa from the Singapore success story?

I think the bedrock of what we do is is bettered on trust and integrity. So, you know, in in this world where where the world is getting so volatile and so bifurcated, and east and west, and you know, bridges are being broken, relationships are broken, and the the the, you know, global order, the rules based world is is now no longer the case. I think if you have a jurisdiction that's number one clean and transparent, number two steady, uh, and number three open for business and rules based.

So we stay the course, we're responsible, we're open, we're transparent, we're rules based. I think there is room for that, you know, in this volatile world. Who doesn't want a sort of stable Totally. Uh, although island of stability?

is there another set of um features that make you Singaporean? What is? What does it mean to be Singaporean?

Gosh, that's a big question. But, you know, as a Singaporean born and bred here, I would say we are law abiding, we are open-minded, uh, we keep wanting to stay ahead. So in Singapore, we say, you know what, have you heard of the word kiasu?

Uh, I'm not very familiar It's a Singaporean with this.

term, so kiasu is a local slang for scared to lose. So it's almost like a paranoia, if you will, because we're small, we're paranoid, because if we don't keep moving forward, we'll be left behind.

Absolutely well, only the paranoid survive.

Only the paranoid survive. So we're a little bit of a kiasu island, um, and we keep having to evolve to stay relevant, to stay ahead. So I like to kind of think that that's the Singapore D N A, in a way, another D word, um, and hopefully that's, and I think that's also the DBS D N A. Just keep moving forward to stay relevant, The uh, but also staying responsible.

absolutely, the government owns um a part of it through Temasek.

Correct?

In which ways is that important?

I think that gives us a a validation. Um, I think it it is what I what I would like to call a Temasek halo, if you will. Um, um, it's stability of uh ownership, it's also support. Temasek um has a strong, stable of um Temasek linked portfolio companies, um, who have an ecosystem of support for each other. Uh, they also get the best, you know, best of breed of people coming in and out, so we get access to talent, to ideas, uh, to disruptive technology.

Um, and so their network, it's not just their capital, that's their network, it's their expertise and their support that's important.

You said you wanted to be um ha, haven in the sea of volatility. Is that really possible in today's geopolitical situation?

Not easy.

How do you think about it? How do you think

How do I think about about the geopolitical it?

fractures and ruptures that's going on just now?

I think about it as you need to to to be diversified, so you can't rely too much on one or the other. Right? When the tariffs came, everyone thought, oh, shuts. If you're only selling to the U S, well, you're gonna be be suffering badly. You're gonna have to find new, um, you know, new areas of growth. Uh, so diversify your marketplace if you're only supply, if you only get supplies from one country, most people get supplies from China, then, oh, you might want to diversify your supply chain as well, right?

So China plus one, so it's a diversifying and and also where you bank, right? If you think about, um, high network families in the past, they were either banking in the west, or, you know, in the U S, or in Switzerland, or Europe, uh, or in Asia. But today most people wanna diversify, they wanna have all three areas, and they probably have gold. They might have used to have a lot of U S dollars. Now they're thinking I might diversify into other currencies, different asset classes.

So I guess the the the diversifier is important. But how? Also, you know, I think we if if the rest of the world, and it does look like quite a lot of countries are still saying we want to abide by rules based global order of trade. Then I would like to think that trade outside the U S, T O T U S, like we call it in DBS, we call it T O T I S, T O T I S at 89% has has room to grow, has room to grow.

And that could be intra Asia, it could be Asia to the Middle East, G C C countries, it could be E U to Asia, it could be within A S E A N. We see a lot of pockets of growth potential and trade outside the U S, and I think we should focus on that.

Moving on to your kind of personal journey, you've been with DBS for a long time, but you've been

Fifteen years.

s fifteen years, but you've been C E O for six months. So what was the biggest surprise by becoming C E O?

I think the fact that, you know, you have to manage so many different stakeholders. It's not just the board, and, of course, I've been used to managing customers and and teams, uh, and the board. But it's investors like yourself, um, it's, um, the government, it's a lot of media, it's a lot of, um, there's a big public persona.

Is that? Do you think that's fun? Do you like it?

Um, yes and no. I mean, it's fun if I get to meet people like you, but it can be quite intrusive. Like, you know, there will be a lot of stories, and I'll think, like, Hm, that's not even a story, you know? So so it, it, it's, you know, you take the good with the bad, I guess, comes with the territory. But you have to be careful and on on, you know, on your guard more often than not.

Um, but having said that, I, it's been an honor. I mean, you know, being, uh, Singaporean, being, I guess, the first woman for DBS, um, not the first Singapore, my my boss, my previous boss was, um. But also inheriting, uh, what I think is a really good foundation, uh, and um, having the support of my chairman and my board, uh, and my shareholders has been has been good. Because you know what, right after I took over, bang, liberation day happened, right?

And what's liberation?

So it was like, wow, okay, baptism of fire, right? Um, and um, so it's been, it's been, um, it's been, it's been, you know, interesting.

Who, uh, who do you talk to if you are in doubt about things?

Oh, I talk to a lot of people, I talk to. So when Liberation Day happened, I talked to a lot of my board members who opened the doors to some of the biggest, you know, U S dollar traders. And I talked to shareholders, I talked to, um, people like yourself, just to get a sense of what kind of prism they were using to to measure risk and how they were diversifying their risk.

Are you surprised by how financial markets have recovered?

Yeah, I, I, I mean, it's incredible, no,

Why do you think they have recovered so sharply?

I think there's been a lot of liquidity in the markets, and I think the economic slowdown is real. I think if you look at real commercial asset growth, it's been quite tepid, right? There was a front loading of of of supply chain financing and trade pre-tariff, but now that's slowing down. When the pause button got pressed by Liberation Day, that led to a drop in investments. And I think that's that's showing up, uh, in the numbers.

And as rates start to grind down, rates have been very low in Asia already, rates crashed in Asia. So there's a lot of liquidity, uh, out in these markets, particularly in Hong Kong and in Singapore. So that, I think, has spurred quite a lot of investments into into financial assets. So, in a way, not that surprised, but you know, it's, it's incredible. I mean, this wall of worry seems to have disappeared.

Absolutely. Let's talk about, uh, uh, worries. I mean, uh, early on in your career, you demoted yourself. I did Tell me about it.

so. When my boss, um, and my chairman hired me, it was to set up the private bank. And when I came in and looked in DBS, I thought, wow, there's so much potential in the consumer bank, um, from retail to to the priority bank. And if I wanted to build a really good private bank, I can't do it standing alone. To create scale and and impact, I had to be part of the consumer bank.

So I asked my C E O, please downgrade me, I won't report to you, I will report to the consumer banking head. He thought it was unorthodox. He's like, why the hell do you know what to report to me when I'm the C E O? And I said to you, it's the only way it's going to work is if I report to the consumer banking head. Um, and, uh, we can create a wealth continuum and and my our impact can be much larger.

So he said, It's unorthodox. I'll have to go back to the board. So he went back to the board, they okayed my demotion, so I joined and got demoted. One step back.

What did you do to your ego? Did you think it was was it good for your ego? Why?

yeah, I think, um, you know, in life, you often have to stake. You take one step back to take two steps forward, and um, it's not really, you know, at the end of the day, you don't really choose your bosses, and you don't, um, and and a title isn't that important. I think impact's Some people far more important,

think, some people think differently.

but don't you think? I mean,

No, I can't argue with you, but some impact, yeah, people, I would say, I suspect, uh, in particular, men, I think, are very tied up to the title.

probably. Hopefully, you know, less so these days, as as people, as organizations become more flat. I think most people wanna have impact, and and if you really are impact driven, then the title doesn't matter. If you can have huge impact with a different title, why not? That's so much Well, you think more, more meaningful.

that I think that's why a lot of men think it's difficult to retire, because they're so, hang, you know, they have such a hang up with the title and the importance coming with the job, you know? So, uh, you know, well done for doing that. But um, but then you have been instrumental in building the the wealth business in, uh, DBS very successfully. What what does it take to build a wealth business?

I think number one, you need to understand your customer and their needs, so Asian customers, uh, have unique Asian specific needs. You need to understand that. Number two, you need to combine both that physical personal relationship with a great digital platform, so digital, if you will. Number three, you need to be open architecture. What does open architecture mean? It means you're not wedded to any one product provider. You wanna have an open shelf so you can get the best.

If you like the U S market, find the best U S if you U S, you know, fund manager, if you like, uh, uh, long shored, or you like, um, you know, whatever, whatever products you like. Make an open architecture so that you can really look the customer in the eye and say, I'm getting you the best of breed, or at least what I think is the best of breed today for your needs. Cause if you manufacture and you sell your own product, it could be a conflict of interest.

Per definition, you deal with very wealthy people, right? Any reflections on, uh, the common characteristics of wealthy people?

Very different, gosh, you know, depends on first, second, third generation, when they were born, what they went through. Um, but I would say Asia wealth is generally a bit younger than European or American wealth. And so a lot of the wealth creation has been from their business. Either they've just I P O ed, or they've invested well in their business, or they've done well in real estate, et cetera. So it's fairly concentrated and fairly chunky. So for you to be relevant to their wealth, you really need to understand how was your wealth created?

Was it in shipping, was it in warehousing, was it in real estate, was it in technology? And then when you understand how the wealth was created, then you can kind of get into the what are the right, the real needs for your family office or for your personal wealth. Very often, Asian wealth remains pretty concentrated. If they know and love technology, they wanna be in technology, right? So you kind of also have to play your role as the trusted advisor to say, really, there's a lot of correlation risk in your portfolio right now.

Do you wanna diversify into a different currency or different different sector, for example?

The fact that the wealth is, uh, newer, more recent, newer, more concentrated, more entrepreneurial. What? What does that mean in terms of how, uh, how wealthy Asians are different from wealthy Europeans?

Well, I think a lot

For you?

of them, you know, are going through that business transition today. So if their businesses, uh, are now moving from the first founding family, first founding generation to the next, you're now seeing a real change, right? So number one, some of them might have children that wanna take over, some don't, and if they don't, then they will need a solution to sell their business, or or, or to find a, to find a solution for liquidity, for liquidity, um, solution, um.

And then you've got the next generation and all they're thinking about is digital assets, you know, tokenized assets, you know, crypto assets, whatever, or the mag seven, right? I mean, I was listening to your podcast and there's a lot of talk about, you know, investing in tech. But the concentration of of the new generation wealth in the mag seven is is is huge. Um, and so how do you manage that, right? So the second generation tends to be more global, the first generation tends to be more local, uh, or regional, if you will.

So being able to toggle that move, provide a solution. Because if the first generation thinks I need to sell, then you have to help them sell, whether it's an I P O or a trade sale. The second generation comes in, how do you structure? Then the third generation now coming in, what do you do for them? So it is, um, it, it is a journey, um, and also for Asians, a lot of us come from, we have currencies that are quite volatile, right?

You know, you think about the rupee, the rupiah, the the you know, R M B sing dollar, Hong Kong dollar, it's it's, it's, you know, there's multiple currencies, um, some more liquid than others. So we also have to think about, you know, how do you protect your your currencies as well?

When you, when you look around here and you see the work ethics and how hard people work, you know the kind of entrepreneurial spirit and so on. And you compare this with Europe, what are your reflections? I can't say, You don't, you don't have to be politically correct.

do you know I? I'm not an expert, I can't say I'm an expert on the European work ethic. Okay, so that's just it's just um, put it out there. But I've been impressed by the creativity and the innovation of Europe, um, and um, I would say that Asians tend to work longer hours, that's true on average. Um, and and and you're right, it's a work ethic that's kind of drummed into us, into our culture from when we were young.

You know, your parents tell you must work hard, uh, you go to school, your teacher says you must work hard, you start your first job, your bosses, you know, you gotta work hard. Nine, nine, six and all that. So the work ethic is is pretty strong. And uh, but having said that, you know what, I think there's there is a change now. And you look at how much time people spend on gaming, for example, the young people, not just even, you know, adults, young adults, or, you know, middle-aged adults are also spending a lot of time on gaming.

I mean, um, like video games and you know, gaming consoles, that they're, they're socializing in their virtual games as well. Um, there's a lot of um of the move of Asian pop culture now, um, whether it's K pop or, you know, demon hunter type of of um animation. Along with pop music, along with gaming, along with the blockchain and and new generative A I and A I, I think the Asian culture is evolving really quickly. And for us to stay ahead, we've got to look at how our young, how our teenagers and young people are kind of morphing.

The young Asians quite different from their grandparents and their parents, honestly, and it's exciting. We need to stay ahead. So, for example, I've been telling my colleagues and I have been trying to figure out how do we create banking solutions for the gaming population, for example? And we're setting up, uh, how do we create banking relationships with teenagers, for example? Um, how do we also create, you know, a whole banking ecosystem for those of us who love the digital asset ecosystem, for example?

So these are all new tracks, right? Which if you wanna stay relevant, you've got to learn. And I think Asians, by and large, are quite, um, quite agile.

How would you, uh, describe the DBS corporate culture?

I would say our corporate culture has evolved, but what hasn't changed is really the purpose that binds us, the development roots that we have. Means that, you know, we are bounded by our culture and our purpose of just doing the right thing. Like, if you know you're doing the right thing, you don't. There's no need to explain yourself.

Uh, let's say I start working here, I'm lucky enough to get a job. I, uh, I work here for a couple of weeks. Just how would I feel differently here than I would in an American firm? You think?

Okay, I mean, first of all, um, Asia's our home, we're an Asian bank, so the difference is this is our home. We're not going to be upping and we don't, um, go and and and leave when the chips are down. We stay, we are a stayer, we are a stayer, so we are committed. So when we say we're gonna be in this country, we're in this country, whether it's Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Taiwan, India, Indonesia, and the rest of the Asian markets that we're in, we're in, we're committed, that's our home.

Um, so that's one difference. The second is, I guess, um, it's the digital D N A that we have. So it's don't be scared to experiment, right? So, and don't be scared to tell the boss she's wrong. So I've And you have got to the point.

something here in the meeting, Yeah, my so we're in the meeting room now. raccoon, yeah, What is this raccoon thing so my raccoon, here?

our raccoon, it's spelt W r e c k o o n, so but it sounds like a raccoon, like this, like, like the animal. But we empower our young analysts or any any staff, whether they're in a meeting with a senior like me or any other bosses. They have a right to put their hand up and say, I wanna raccoon your idea. I don't like your idea, I wanna be, I wanna have that psychological safety to to tear your idea down and speak up.

Because if you don't, then you're not doing your job. So we have meeting mojos as well, mojo is spelt M O J O, the meeting owner and the joyful observer J O. So the meeting owner sets the agenda, the joyful observer has the right to say, hang on, we're going down the wrong path, or hang on, let's get more voices in the room to be heard. So I would like to think that at DBS, we empower people to speak up and and no matter how junior your voice is heard, because that's embedded in our processes and in our culture.

How do you maintain, uh, this culture of innovation in 40,000 people company?

Not easy, um, but a lot of it is just practice, practice, practice, do fail, fail fast, move on. So, um, what I inherited as C E O is really a digital mode and a data mode. So we started the data lake in 2016 called Ada, um, and we changed the way we we we manage to manage through customer journeys. So as as opposed to vertical product journeys, it's customer journeys. Account opening is a journey, applying for loan is a journey, getting a transaction done is a journey, doing a supply chain financing is a journey.

So when you organize around journeys and you have data, live data dashboards that informs you, uh uh, the turnaround time's too slow. The customer's complaining, uh, the system's hanging, oh, the pricing is wrong, oh, the customer likes the journey, oh, they're buying more products now. So having that feedback loop, we have screens in all our meeting rooms, cause we check the data all the time. We try and have data informed meetings, so it's stand ups, quick meetings, um, and we call it managing through journeys.

And I think the way we manage, uh, the data lake that we have has enabled us to create that framework in which we now bring in new stuff, right? So you're telling me about agentic A I? Okay, I'll bring it into my my, my M T J, my journey, a customer journey, generative A I. Okay, I'll bring it into my journey. And now watch the feedback loop on the machine. How does the customer like it? Are they liking it?

Does it work? Does it not work? They Where? Where did keep telling

you learn this obsession with client satisfaction?

Oh, we just keep, oh gosh, you know, that was, um, in twenty long time ago, more about fifteen, fourteen years ago, uh, when we first joined, we were the worst bank for service, like last, and you know where we went

How bad was it?

bad. So, um, you know, who's the best in Singapore? Singapore Airlines, right? Singapore Airlines

They're amazing.

is, yeah. So we went to Changi, we went and we learned

Changi is the airport.

Changi is the airport. But near the airport, there's something called S Q, called service quality, run by the by the wonderful folks at Singapore Airlines. And we call it red. I wear red and black a lot, cause that's our colours. But red stands for respectful, e easy to deal with, and d dependable. So Asian cultures, we have to be respectful, right? So we learn that from S I A, like, you know how, when they serve you, if they're Sure, they they turn the glass they, yeah, and no, no, they look you, they give you eye line, but they don't look down on you.

And if you're angry, they t. They taught us how to at least accept and acknowledge the fact that the customer's not happy, have acceptance and acknowledge it, and be respectful in how you deal with them. Um, and then be easy to deal with, don't make life very difficult. You know, sometimes banking, going to a bank is like worse than going to a dentist, right? So we try to make the banking journey as painless and as joyful as possible, and then dependable, which is, you know, when you need us most, don't don't remove the umbrella, you know, when it's raining, you know, come up with the umbrella and help us through.

So through Covid, through all the tough times but I mean, that you can. it's not like Get

just, uh, you f, you take the whole staff to the airport and and and no, no, so train them in one day, right? It's, no, it's, it's uh,

a. It's an evolving journey, attributes and it's how, how did an evolving that happen? And how journey.

did you manage to change an organization?

So you have a lot of these ambassadors, actually, you know what, we? We actually hired quite a lot of, um, uh, retired S I A staff,

All right?

and we put them in our, in in, in our branches. Um, and you create pride, you know, like it's like Ritz Carlton, ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen. We want our staff to be proud. You know, you come to work and you're happy, and you're proud to be working for DBS, for P O S B. Um, and we want, um, it's that Asian culture of treating people with respect, especially if they're older than you.

It's, it's, it's, it's really an Asian sort of, you know, culture, um, but also, um, learning from each other. So when, when we have red heroes, we got red stories. We, you know, I. I just wrote a thank you to someone who's been with us for forty years and she got so many compliments from our staff or from our clients. And I said, you are my ambassador, and she is our ambassador, you know? And um, so it's having all these service ambassadors show the younger stuff, you know, this is the way forward

Are there any other companies you're learning from or any other people?

all the time. We learn from, you know, anyone from from. I don't wanna upset anyone by missing them out, but all the big tech companies, we're constantly learning. Um, you know, whether they're from China, from from the U S, from India, wherever we, we bring them in, we spend time with them, we learn from them, we go and visit them. Korea, for example, uh, we've always been really, you know, inspired by what we see in Korea, whether it's, you know, Hana Bank, Kakao, you know, Naver, um, obviously, Amazon, A W S, Google, um, Microsoft.

And we're spending a lot of time with the with the A I guys, the generative A I guys as well. Um, and of course, in the banking industry, you know, I N G is a a great, great example of how they they were managing through journeys a lot earlier than us, right? So

So, given all this, what do you think DBS will look like in five to ten years time? How are you going to be different?

our aim is to be the best A I enabled bank with a heart, so we're still human. I still believe that humans want human to human relationships. But a lot of the mundane, boring work, like writing reports, you know, filling up k y c forms and doing mundane transactions can be done by an A I or a bot. So, and it can be done more accurately, probably by an A I or a bot. But keep those human to human relationships, keep those customer relationships, um, take out the mundane work, but also, uh, have empathy and have respect for our customers and stay there for the long term.

Let's drill down a bit more on the on the A I side. Uh, last year you said that you saved $750 million on the use of A I. Just how have you made the bank A I ready? What's the So do you key to getting remember, Nicola, these things?

what I said about managing through journeys and and using data dashboards to measure? So we do a lot of A B testing. So send an offer this way, don't send an offer, price it this way, don't price it this way. So all these A B testing, we put it in a sort of dashboards, and there's a cons, there's an instant feedback loop. Customer liked it, didn't like it, transacted, didn't transact, and that is instructive. So the incremental revenue for all the nudges that we give out to customers gets captured by this A B testing.

And that is what we measure as a sign of whether the machine learning is working, whether the A I is working. And so that was seven fifty last year, hopefully over a billion this year in incremental revenue.

how do you get, uh, people to really use it properly in the organization? Because it's it's difficult to get people to change habits. It is, How do you do it?

well, just, you know, really keep nagging them, right? Oh, and making it okay, you know what? The key is to make it. Um, first of all, as the boss, you have to do it, right? And I remember in 2012, when I tried to digitize the wealth business, um, I realized I can't just leave it to my digital head. I have to, as the business owner, own the wireframes, own the U X, own the app, own end to end journeys.

And I think it's making everyone in the organization own their own journey, make them proud that, oh, you know, my app that I came up with, the experiment that I came up with, worked right. So we all went through the process of trying to make our own app, and now we're making. I make sure everyone goes through the process of doing your own generative A I journey. Um, and and just do learn by doing, don't learn theoretically, learn by doing, make your mistakes, share your mistakes, and more importantly, if you had a good idea and you worked it and it worked, share it.

So, like I was in Taiwan last week, um, you know, Taiwan, we bought the uh, you know, Citibank's um, wealth and cards business, the cards team, cards team said, Oh, we're experimenting with converting our service calls to our card customers into text, so voice converted to text. And in that conversation, the service staff was saying, Oh, you know, madam, do you need um, uh, an estate plan? Have you thought about your children or your grandchildren? How are you planning for the future?

And when we turn that voice to text, it goes into the A I machine learning model. It comes up with a propensity score, which then instructs us, Oh, this is a potential wealth client or not. And it's quite, you know what, it actually works, the journey, works really well. The customer gets called if they have a high score and they are converted to a a wealth customer.

How do you think the A I will change the business in the long term?

It will change the way we work. And

In what ways?

yeah, I think the way we organize, you know, because right now, as I said, there's the workflow and the work process. But if the A I takes on a lot of the mundane work, it could be reading documentary trade, it could be writing the report, writing the call report, it could be spitting on the pitch book. I don't know it. It could be a lot of things and some of these jobs will move. So, for example, I told you the service center now.

A lot of the service calls can actually be answered by a very good generative A I enabled bot in your post login. So if we can do that and do it well, soon you can have agents that do transactions for you, right? So it's a matter of time before that happens. So if that happens, then a lot of those jobs will will will disappear. What does it mean for our service center people is they have to, they have to do something else.

So, in fact, they were the ones that said to me, you know what, this job's gone, I'm gonna do something else. And as it as it is, I have 200,000 S M E clients. Not everyone has a has a relationship manager. Hey, wouldn't it be great for all of them to have a relationship manager? So hello, if you used to do service, can you now be a relationship manager? Can you now look after the S M E clients?

So then you, you basically will own a pool of clients that hitherto had no relationship managers. Do you remember what I said about human to human interaction? I think this enables a lot more human to human interaction whilst the mundane job gets done by a bot.

Talking about, uh, human to human interaction and moving on to your leadership style, how would you characterize your leadership style?

Inclusive, hopefully, empathetic, um, curious, um,

Why is that important?

is it important? I don't know if it's, if it's important, but I like to learn. Um, and you know, whether it's learning about gaming or the digital asset ecosystem, or about healthcare, or whatever, I think, um, learning keeps like, I think you're a learner too. I can see that you're definitely very curious. Um, and I think if if the leader is curious and an open-minded and they learn, then that keeps the company, um, um, relevant and moving forward.

How has your leadership style changed with with experience and age?

With age, I guess I've learned to be more straightforward. So just say it as it is, tell the bad news upfront. So if if it's a deal I don't want to do, you get a no from me quite quickly. So I don't waste your time and you don't waste mine. Um, how has it evolved? I think I have become a better communicator, I've learned to frame my ideas first, think big, and then go small, then di delve small.

So think about that helicopter view. What does the world look like? Where do we wanna play? What do we not want to do? I think about what we don't want to do a lot, which is as im important as what you wanna do, and then delve into the details.

You are known for working extremely hard. I think, uh, I heard a story that you even brought your Bloomberg terminal to the hospital when you were giving birth.

That was because I had a margin call. In those days, there was no blue, I didn't have, there was no smartphones, right? So we had to bring our laptop with all those Bloomberg stickers.

Do you expect other women in DBS to work as hard as you do?

You know, I think if you love your job, you don't think you don't see it as work. Um, and um, it's fun and you enjoy it. So we don't dictate hours and we're quite flexible. You know, men or women, you have a kid, please, you know, stay at home, look after your kid. If you need to go to a concert for your child, please. If you have an aging parent, please look after them. So we're not dictatorial about face time.

Um, and do I expect women to work as hard as me? There are a lot who work harder than me, and there are others who don't, and it's it's fine. As long as we have, you know, we have outcomes to show. I'm, I'm, I'm not, you know, who are we to dictate what kind of, what kind of work they do? It's

you mentioned the importance of being both direct and empathetic. Is there a trade off between the two?

is there a trade off between being direct and being empathetic? I think you can be direct and still empathetic, because if you're not direct and then you're not being empathetic, right? Cause you could be beating around the bush and wasting their time. That's not being, that's not showing empathy.

I've heard you talk about reverse mentoring. Why is that important?

Because you need to look at the trends going forward, and as you age, you may have, you may create that intergenerational gap. And like the Koreans always say, you wanna identify the future trend, look at your teenagers. So having, you know, surrounding yourself with young people, making sure they teach you what's going on, what are the trends, what are they seeing, keeps you relevant and keeps you fresh.

Um, you said you were a learner. What are you trying to learn now?

No, I'm tr. Well, obviously, I've been trying to learn a lot about how gen A I and agentic A I works. That's for both, you know, I'm curious, and I, I, and and and I need to learn that for work. I'm also now trying to learn about gaming and how, because I don't game, but I think it's important to enter the gamer's ecosystem. So I'm trying to learn about that. What's Twitch and Discord and these communities, and why they how they can play a game and talk to each other at the same time, and how that community evolves.

And why do you need to learn that?

It's just as you know, when we were growing up, um, we were playing and and going to movies and stuff. And people thought, maybe our parents said, oh, don't go to movies, or don't, don't spend too much time on on t v or movies. But actually, it became very big industries, content became a very big part of our world. You know, gaming is now already a big part of the the new generation, but it could be something else.

Um, and also in a time where a lot of mundane work gets done by robots, I think there will be this unleashing of creativity upon us. So being creative is important, and so left brain, right brain, I think C E O's need to have both, right?

So, let's so now you want to learn about gaming, how do you do that? So it's like, Hey, I wake up, it's just like, Hey, I'm uh, Su Shan. I want to learn about gaming. What do So you? uh, where where I'll give do you take you an it? where do you take it from there?

example. So yesterday I invited the the former C E O of the biggest gaming company in Korea and Japan for lunch. I made him sit down with me for an poor guy, an hour and a half, and I was like, explain to me what is the guy thinking of when they go into the game? And he's like, you really don't know, so I don't know. You know, one one of the games that are hot today, and he gave me the names.

And then what do they do? How much is the console? And what kind of chair do they sit on? And how much time do they spend? And then they they shared with me what was phishing. Do you know what's phishing?

I don't know.

You see, you can fish in a game, Okay, what is you can go fishing this? what in a game.

is this telling?

It's when you can, you can date a friend, you can say to another friend, Hey, let's go fishing. So you're actually in the game and you actually go and fish in the game. You're literally fishing, and it's a quiet moment. And and and people do dates, virtual dates, fishing in a game.

I really need to learn about gaming. Talking about quiet time, you also meditate, I gather

Well, I had a bad spat in my life, um, in my mid to late twenties, um, when I lost my job, I lost my home, I lost my then relationship, um, and I thought my world was gonna crumble down up upon me. And that's when I learned, um, some friends of mine taught me to to meditate. Because it enabled me to see myself as a third party, to see the world as it was, and to realize, you know what, calm yourself down.

The world isn't so bad. You got your health, you got your family, you got your friends, you know, everything else will be okay. And I found it very useful to kind of detach myself from my own situation, to see myself from third party eyes, and to calm myself down and to tell myself, you know, it's gonna be okay. So, whilst I don't have a lot of time to meditate nowadays, I should do. I do have. I mean, I do yoga, I go for long runs, I listen to a lot of podcasts.

Um, I'm more of an a a listener than a reader. I love, I love listening, and I love music. So, um, yeah, so those quiet moments. Um, I think when you take yourself out of your everyday, you know, noise, just to see things from a third party perspective, it gives you perspective.

this period, you you talk about, what do you think it did to you as a person?

It made me more resilient, um, it made me appreciate the ups with the downs. It made me realize that when things are very good, don't lose your head. When things are very bad, don't lose your heart.

Well, these are good, uh, good pieces of advice. Now. You also talk about often the importance of sleep. Tell me about it.

do you know who was? Oh, Arianna Huffington, do you know her?

I don't know her, I know of her.

the Huffington Post? We invited her here to to give a talk to my colleagues and I. And she proudly went on stage and said, Sleep your way to the top. And of course, we all laughed, but what she meant was

in the old days, it meant something different, I know, I guess.

right, but what she obviously meant was, if you have good sleep, you perform well, you perform well, you do well, your company does well, you get promoted, your company does well, the company, you know, goes up in value. It's a win-win situation for everyone. And it's true, right? Don't you feel like, no. Talking about if you don't,

sleep, I, I have a nap in the middle of the day. So

I wish I could? What time do you have and roughly your nap?

two to three in the afternoon.

Two to three? Yeah, that's a good. So do you have a a So I really bed?

believe in this, sleep your Do you have a sleep your way to the top.

do you?

I really believe in that.

Well, you're at the top, so do you have a bed in your room?

Yeah, I have a sofa.

You have a sofa, so you sleep from two, so two, thirty to three is your quiet time.

Well, yeah, uh, so I do like fifteen, twenty minutes, but you have to, you have

so we have sleeping pods here.

to. Yeah, but you have to tell everybody that you do so that they don't think you are slacking, right?

yeah, I think I'll do Because it's not that.

really slacking, it's getting more energy for the evening and afternoon.

Yeah, this cat nap is so important.

Where do you go? when do you go to bed?

Too late, don't ask, too late, and and and that's my, my, my. My resolution is to start going to bed a bit earlier.

Yeah, but on the other hand, why do you wanna change? I mean, it's not like you're doing badly. Well, So why are you sure we should? ha, are you sure you should have resolutions to change your life when you are doing well?

only because I wanna work out, you know, I wanna get up earlier and do do do a workout.

All right, what's your morning? what's your morning ritual?

I do actually do a small workout. Um, and then I come to work, and, you know, I read the papers, I come to work, um, and then it's bang, bang, bang.

What are your charging stations? Where do you? Where do you relax?

I run, so sometimes I run by the bay, you can see the bay, sometimes I run at home, or if I visit a new place, or I visit, I like to run when I can. Or if I have little pockets, like last night, between end of work and going to to a dinner, I had a quick run as well. I run, I swim, I do yoga, uh, and uh, whilst I'm doing that, whilst I'm running, I listen to podcasts.

I love, you know, listening to Cathy Woods or to, you know, Peter Diamontes Singularity, Salim Ismail. So it's just that. That's my kind of. When I'm relaxing, I'm also learning, absorbing information and learning new stuff.

Well, I also know another podcast you can listen to going forward if you want to.

I'm listening, and I'm going to add Nicolai Tangen to that running list.

Well, you're a very fan. Su Shan, it's been, uh, tremendous talking to you. uh, what a pleasure, and you are very impressive, and it's been great.

Thank you so much, thank you. So, Nikolai, now that you've interviewed me, I feel that I can't waste this huge opportunity to to reverse interview you. So thank you for agreeing, even though it's so last minute.

Fantastic, love it.

So how does it feel to be the manager of the world's top and number one sovereign wealth fund? Is it a huge responsibility?

It's a huge but it's a huge responsibility, of course, but I don't feel, I don't think much about it, to be honest.

Or you don't?

No, uh, it's an honor to kind of manage the capital for the for the country because the fund is very important in a Norwegian context. But I have so many great colleagues who helped me do this, and so I don't feel that I'm particularly important.

But how do you set the tone for for the fund and for for your colleagues? How do you? What is the what is the role of a C E O in a in a sovereign wealth fund?

Okay, the C, the role of a C E O, C E O stands for Chief Energy Officer. Oh, energy, Yeah, and I like that so I think it is to give energy, it is to give direction, it is to give, you know, impulses, it's to inspiration, transmit learning. I'm sorry. inspiration. Yeah, totally. It's to inspire and it is to make people go somewhere they may not, uh, don't want to go, uh, initially, and so it is to motivate them, give them responsibility and um, and make sure it's fun.

Yeah, have you had to take your team somewhere that maybe was challenging and they didn't wanna go? Oh, and how did you do that? How did you motivate a whole team to go down a path that they were reluctant to go down?

Well, I think you have to explain why they should go in that direction and why it makes sense. As, so, for instance, we we are a much more open organization than we were in the past. We are the most transparent fund in the world. And in the beginning, I thought, you know, that's good because then other people can see what we do. But I think transparency and openness is so important because it makes us absorb impulses from the world and technology from the outside in a much better way.

So one thing is the openness, the second thing is the whole, you know, level of ambitions. I think if when you tell people about your ambitions, if they don't start laughing, they are not high enough. they don't start laughing, They must laugh when you tell them what laugh your ambitions

out loud, ha ha ha, are. Ha ha laugh, oh laugh when oh,

you, when you.

okay, so tell me what you said, and then everyone laughed

Well, in the beginning, I said, Listen, we wanna be, um, we wanna be the number one large investment fund in the world.

and everyone laughed.

Yeah, because it was just such At the time, a

how, what size were you?

this is five years ago. Now people don't laugh. Um, so I think that's important, and um,

I like that.

and then, and then it is so So your ambition so, it's so, has to it's an ambition. And then it's with with with performance, which is important. You know how you define performance, how you get there, um, how you work with, uh, with methodology and process, and then speed, you know, to make sure this there is a high speed. Speed is a mindset and you need to, speed is a you really need to drive mindset. it all the time, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So chief energy officer, giving inspiration, giving speed. Um, then what drives you? What? How? Why? How do you have so much energy? You do this huge day job, then you have this fantastic podcast, you're famous.

Well, I mean, the you Uh, where do know, the podcast,

you get your?

so the podcast is part of the transparency we do, and we learn a lot from the podcast, which we are taking into the organization. And to share all that information with the Norwegian people and people who are interested across the world, I think it's a big plus, right? So, you know, our applications are going through the roof. We have a lot of very clever people who wanna work with us and so on. So I think that's that makes a lot of sense.

But energy, where does it come from? You know what? It's interesting, there's very little research that has got into where energy comes from. But it's probably a combination, uh, of us wanna show the world, I mean, you wanna show the world, I wanna show the world. We wanna do the we wanna be the best we can, we wanna do something great.

yeah. But earlier you shared with me that you take this cat nap from two thirty to three, which I think is fantastic. I wanna say that also in my reverse podcast. Um, because you're right, I mean, you have ups and tides, you know, you have ebbs and flows of energy. And sometimes in the day after lunch, for example, it's gonna be low and you take that quick cap nap. It just propels you forward, right? It gives you that more energy for the second half of the day.

And what inspires you?

it inspires me to meet people like you, to meet leaders across the world. I read a lot of books, I read a lot what are you reading of.

these days?

Well, I'm on the I'm, I'm on the jury of the Financial Times Business Book of the Year, and so I got sixteen books not too long ago, so I'm reading those sixteen books. And speed reading to sixteen and actually books. tonight we have a meeting in the jury to take the sixteen down to six. Okay,

do I have a sneak peek of which ones you like? uh, unfortunately It's okay, cause for not. the time I, I, I

But there are some really put it to the great, but there are some, uh, some incredible books. I, I do read a lot of those type of books, but I try to read very widely because I think that's part of being open-minded. To learn from, to learn from, uh, science, to learn from psychology, arts, to learn from sport, from art. I think that's how you, how you become more innovative and more creative.

yeah. So changing tack, let's talk about the markets. Where do you think, uh, we're headed now I think it's with the markets?

incredible, I think it's incredibly, uh, difficult to know, because, you know, um, last weekend I was up in the mountains with um, seven of my cleverest friends. And we do this once a year and we record what do we think about

Oh, really.

various parameters for the next twelve months. And So as we were listening,

you climb the mountain, you we were, we were, record everyone

we were listening to the, uh, to the recording last, did from last you record? year, okay, and we were 80% wrong, 80% wrong, because

80% wrong.

none of us predicted the tariffs, Yes, of the situation course, that came between the

out of nowhere.

U S and Europe, the fact that India is now closer to China, you know, you just you name it, and we didn't predict any of these things. Now, had we predicted all these things, we would have thought that stock markets would have been down twenty, 30%, and it's up.

Or you would have got They it wrong, right, either way, talking about you, right? Yeah,

you get it wrong and wrong. And so I think what it's all about now is you cannot predict anything. You need to make sure the organization is extremely agile, that it is robust in all different types of ways, and robust, I mean, robust in a cy from a cyber point of view, from a balance sheet point of view. Uh, to have redundancy in various places, and then I think it's to work on speed. So to me, this, these, these, um, uh, you attributes, know, three things, so, uh, agility, speed robust, nothing beats

and and resiliency. speed. Yeah, Yeah, no, that sounds like what we're, we're going for as well, you know, we. It is so important to be resilient in this day and age, but also to have the agility and the speed to just take on new stuff, right, and to pivot when you need to. And so how how do you see the geopolitics? I mean, you invest in Asia, don't you? So, and you're now visiting Asia. Do you come to Asia every year?

Okay, when you come every year as someone from the West, what surprises you about Asia and what maybe worries you about Asia?

well, it's very impressive. Um, innovation is very impressive, work ethic is very impressive. Um, the the way you navigate the geopolitics these days is very, very impressive. I mean, you, you talk about, uh, you know, the bank wanting to be the safe haven, uh, in a way, this is kind of the safe haven compared to a lot of other places. So I think you're well positioned and I think you're making the most of it.

yeah, yeah. What do you think a bank like DBS can do more of to do can to do better?

Well, I think you. My impression is that you're doing a lot of the right things. Uh, of course, the big, the big thing now is is the the A I, and to which extent that could dislocate, uh, you know, the banking landscape. You have new entrants, you need to be on top of your data stack and the data quality, uh, relentlessly focus on customer satisfaction, uh, which you are, so, uh, it's interesting do you worry times.

about, um, you know, the weaponization of data, and also the weaponization of technology? I mean, we were seeing the weaponization of everything, right from payments to trade to supply chain to chips, and increasingly, the East and West tech stack is kind of bifurcating, if you will. Um, we're trying to diversify and make sure that they're both interoperable. Um, but how are you seeing this whole um tech bifurcation in your world?

Oh, it's extremely interesting. And, you know, I kind of think it started in, uh, you know, to be serious, let's say five years ago. And um, technology is now embedded in in kind of uh, weapons, so in the in in the power struggle, uh, pharmaceutical research, self-driving cars, battery technologies, you know, uh, technology is embedded everywhere. And uh, you are, you know, in a way, the as you said, the world is a bit splitting in two here, and it is, uh, it is, it is a clear negative.

yeah, yeah. You can't optimize on cost anymore, right? You're gonna have, you know, you have to have just in case, not just in time, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, I guess, you know, that brings us to also the um, the way one invests in this sort of, you know, when, cause you're global, right? You, you invest globally. How do you think about allocating assets? Do you look at companies more above countries and above currencies?

I think you have to be very diversified and very long term. Very long term, Yeah,

which is how long?

well, we are, you know, fifty, fifty to hundred years. At at least we try to be, but it's difficult, it's

that is true.

diffic. One of the toughest things in life is to be long term.

Long term.

Because you come into the office on Monday and it's just like you don't do anything. Tuesday, you don't do anything, Wednesday, you don't do anything. You go home to your husband and wife and say, Hey, what did you do today? Uh, Su Shan, No, I did nothing, and five days in a row, you don't do anything. So that's kind of the

So interesting.

abil, the ability to sit still is very, It's very hard, very, is very hard.

it's very hard. Wow, I never thought of it that way. That's so interesting. But that that means when you move, you really have to do your work before you move.

Yeah, now we are helped because we have uh a mandate from the Ministry of Finance which tells Us in broad terms how we should be invested. So we don't need to make uh these large asset allocation decisions ourselves. We're really helped by by anchoring in the in the parliament and and a good and a good process behind this.

So. Tell us about what. Singapore and and Singapore can learn from the what what can Asians and Singaporeans learn from Norway.

Uh. Well, I think that's a very tough one because I don't do politics and so I look at Singapore and I admire the long term thinking, the planning, uh, the. Well Norway has long The upscaling.

Term planning. Norway is very green, very sustainable. No, no, we And your business

Have a lot we have a lot of Precisely. Great things in Norway, right. We have a lot of great things. I think it's um.

You all speak great English for a start. Why is that.

Well, because we are a very small nation and we.

That's like us, so we all had to learn English.

Yeah, sure, of course, uh absolutely. You are one family. You are.

We're five.

We are five. We are five. Five to six, yeah We also five.

No, six now.

We are also five. We have a bit more space uh in Norway. You have a So it's.

Lot more space. So it's easier You have a lot of

To is a lot of Fjords. Fjords. It's easier to get up in the mountains or in the forest Than be on your own, you know. You more places to meditate. But no, I think you know, I think Singapore and Norway are two they are two great places.

Yes, very good education system, right.

Yeah it's pretty good.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's the bedrock is is is you know being open, um being open minded and and um being international, but also um embracing, you know, embracing learning and staying relevant. Yeah. Agree. Well, it's been a great pleasure. Thank you for allowing me to interview you.

My pleasure.

And I look forward to the next time we meet. Absolutely, likewise. Thank Thank you so

You. Thank you.

Much.