GSK CEO: Drug Discovery, AI in Pharma, and Changing Company Culture

Hi everyone, I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund, and today I'm in really good company with Emma Walmsley, the CEO of GSK, one of the global leaders in pharmaceuticals. Now, we own 1.7 of GSK, valued at 1.3 billion U. S. dollars. Emma, great to have you here.

Wonderful to be here. Thanks for having And I believe me.

this is the second podcast ever in your The second life. ever Wow.

looking forward, uh, very much to the conversation. Now, which areas of research excites you the most just now?

Now, which areas of research excites you the most just now?

Uh, well, I'm excited about a lot of the ways that research, both in science and technology, are advancing, and particularly those two things together. I mean, it is literally the point of our company is to innovate, and that's where we allocate most of our capital. So, in fact, since I've been in this job, I think we've nearly doubled our R D spend, uh, organically. And then, of course, opened up a huge amounts of partnerships that we do externally in business development to supplement the pipeline.

Um, what excites me most, uh, is when we can innovate in a way that has real impact at scale for patients around the world. So I'm incredibly excited about five new approvals for new drugs and vaccines that we're expecting to get this year, one down and another four uh to go. And that's the first wave of a cohort of, we think, fourteen scale medicines and vaccines, each of the potential of more than 2 billion pounds worth of sales that we expect to launch this decade.

And that includes, uh, a um, in areas of oncology, in infectious diseases, in respiratory, uh, immunology, in Hiv, and, you know, some of these. What's really exciting is when you have totally new technology platforms in pharmaceuticals. So, for example, um, in multiple myeloma, a very nasty blood cancer that, uh, where there are 180,000 new diagnoses every year. We have a new technology platform, something called antibody drug conjugates, and you have to think of these as like kind of biological missiles that have precision targeting for cancer.

Which means they can bring greater efficacy, uh, but also with less side effects. So we hopefully have a new multiple myeloma drug, uh, that has data that proves it extends life expectancy by three years. That's a very big deal for these, um, uh, patients in terms of, uh, overall survival, uh, in that new, uh, platform technology. Um, another example of something totally new and emerging science is in a field called oligonucleotides. Um, you have to think of these as a kind of spell check for r n a expression to correct the way, uh, disease develops.

And there we may have a new functional cure for a horrible disease, hepatitis B, um, which impacts 250 million people around the world. So these are examples of new near term assets.

You are both in vaccines and in medicines, and how do these areas complement each other?

Well, vaccines are there fundamentally, uh, to prevent disease before it starts. And, you know, at G S K, we say we combine science, tech and talent to get ahead of disease. Um, there is no better return on investment, uh, than vaccine technology. In fact, in healthcare, perhaps except for clean water, um, it really is, you know, uh, a very powerful, uh, solution, uh, mainly in infectious diseases. But you talk about what's exciting in new science coming through.

A couple of weeks ago, I was in Oxford looking, um, with some part in a partnership we've, uh, developed there to look at pre cancer cell um biology. And that is potentially we're really looking on long-term horizons in terms of exciting science here to imagine what cancer vaccines, uh, could bring. Um, uh, and, you know, that's very, uh, e exciting science. When you talk about, um, uh, the complementarity, obviously, when you're in medicines, you tend to be more in the treatment space, um, but that so can also be earlier intervention in disease to change its course.

Because what costs money for society and healthcare systems is hospitalization and spending on people being sick. So intervening earlier, um, is really important. And that can be with long-acting medicines that keep people out of hospital, and we have lots in our pipeline. Uh, be it in Hiv or a respiratory that's looking at that too.

for the people who don't know G S K, what are your three best-selling products?

well, our biggest sellers, uh, are, um, in, uh, h I v, in respiratory drugs, uh, and in, uh, vaccines today. So, uh, in respiratory, if you look at a drug called Trelegy, and that's for both asthma and C O P D, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Perhaps many haven't heard of it, but it's the third leading cause of death in the world. So I think 300 million people living with that. And so we have a a a an everyday inhaler for both C O P D and Asthma, Asthma called Trelegy, cause it's got three drugs in it.

That's a huge one. In Hiv, we have two drug regimens. I mean, remember, uh, an Hiv diagnosis used to be a death sentence. Now it's something that you can, uh, live with as a chronic disease because we have these fantastic, uh, drugs that that, um, uh, that people can take integrase inhibitors. But we also, uh, and now have have been pioneering in long-acting solutions in hiv. So that means an injection you can take six times a year.

We're now looking at it being four times a year, and eventually a couple of times a year. That's an extraordinary, uh uh, solution. And then in in vaccines, we really pioneered with an incredibly effective shingles vaccine that's a multi billion asset. Uh, today, uh, gives 90% protection for at least eleven years, you know, one in three of us, uh, so your camera woman or you or me, we're gonna deal with, uh, shingles, um, uh, at some stage.

Incredibly painful, and we have a highly effective vaccines there. And then another example would be we had the world's first r s v vaccine, uh uh, that we launched last year, still only in its very early stages of of global penetration. So those are the big ones today. But for the future, I think we're looking more and more towards cancer, uh, drugs as well.

You've kind of overseen a major overhaul of your R D uh approach since you became the C E O. So what are the biggest changes you made to that process?

Um, well, I think these this process is always, uh uh, ongoing, because, as I said at the beginning, you know, the purpose of our company is to innovate. And we're one of the only industries that has to literally replace itself every decade, um, because of the patent model, um, which is in place. And, you know, the first thing to do was simply to say we want to prioritize it and put really, uh, organize ourselves to prioritize the allocation of capital to R D.

We had, um, a radical overhaul of the key, uh, disease areas that we wanted to go into. So we explicitly said we're going to prioritize specialty medicines and, uh, vaccines within the port, uh, portfolio, and within that, our key therapy areas. We bet back big in cancer, both through business development, um, acquisitions, in licensing and homegrown innovation as well. I've been really excited to see that business more than double last year. It's still emerging, but I think when we look forward to the pipeline that's coming next, um, uh, be it the multiple myeloma approval we hope to get this year, or a whole new portfolio of, uh, a d cs, these antibody, uh, body drug conjugates, which we think will

open up, uh, solutions to new areas of cancer. I mean, this is, as you know, and you very kindly brought, um, you very kindly brought forward this recording. Because I'm going from this meeting to the funeral of a friend who died of pancreatic cancer. She was in her early fifties, mum of three. More and more we're seeing, uh, diagnoses in younger people, um, uh, uh, for cancer. And although the science is advancing so fast here, uh, with new, uh, modalities, we've still got diseases like lung cancer, where even the biggest drugs in the world are only effective on twenty of, uh, of the population.

So, um, I think, you know, there's a lot, lot more work, uh, to do there. It's one of our areas of our portfolio. The other incredible transformation that is coming to R D and our industry, and frankly, the healthcare industry writ large, is what's going to be done with technology. Um, and that's so

And you are, and you are exciting, on the board of Microsoft.

correct? Great privilege that that is, and I have been for six years.

What are you taking from Microsoft into the processes?

Well, first of all, um, just to reiterate, obviously, my core job and accountability is as the C E O of G S K.

Yeah, sure, but I mean, uh, I mean, nor normally I, I'm a bit skeptical when people are on a L on boards, right? This is hugely But this useful. but this well, exactly. So here you can just see it, right? It should really enable you to bring in new technologies and be

It's going.

totally cutting edge. I I believe, We should all be on the board of Microsoft. I I mean, wish I, I wish so so I do I were,

my best. I would love I mean, fi to. first of all, uh, it's very interesting, the uh crossovers,

Now, what are they? What um, well, are the crossovers?

just let's just before you get into the obvious relevance of the fact that technology, a I, now gen a I, are going to change every industry and society. And it's the most exciting time we can possibly imagine. Especially when you consider a third of the world's data is related to healthcare, and healthcare is one of the biggest challenges in terms of its sustainability, its affordability, and the enormous amount of unmet need there is out there. When you think about aging populations and the rest.

In fact, there isn't a single tech company that doesn't think that. The best case study for the the possibilities of technology and its positive contribution to society is healthcare writ large. What is most exciting for G S K is our biggest challenge is the productivity of R D. It is really, really hard to, uh, discover and develop a drug. 90% of, um, and this is industry writ large, 90% of, uh, the assets, uh, fail.

Which probably is an important thing when you think about the economic model of our industry and having to cover the cost of failure. It takes a decade and it can cost billions. Uh, so capital allocation is a very, very important thing for us to do. But just imagine, um, in this world of the explosion of data, genetics and genomics, and healthcare systems, um, uh, provision and new tech, wearable tech. How every aspect of the value chain, uh, for us in R D, and and we think of that.

If you looked at the traditional linear mode, you would say target selection, so biological target selection, molecule design, uh, what we call C M C, so the transition of that into manufacturing. Because that's often can be, you know, especially with all these new technology platforms, it can be, uh, an area where you can get bottlenecks or a failure rate. And then you get into clinical trials where things get really expensive. Um, and patient identification is a part of that.

So we've traditionally gone through a linear mode, and each one of those today, we are using a I, and sometimes gen a I, whether it's, um, to, uh, get more precision around the probability of success about the original biological target. And we're using genetic data as well, and we have examples of that. Whether it's about building completely industry-leading chemistry libraries to allow us to design molecules in silico, and again, that work is going on. We're not, it's that famous quote about, you know, the future here is here, but it's not scaled and evenly distributed yet.

I would say we're still in the sort of, uh, early stages of doing these experiments and experimentation, but there's a so when lot more you see how coming through.

you've used um technology and how you use a i, what has it done for you so far, and how much more improvement will there be?

Oh, I think I think we've hardly scratched the surface. We're already using it in the design of our clinical trials to predict outcomes, to be able to follow, uh, patterns of infectious diseases, so

So what do you think it will

clothes these out.

do, let's say, over the next five years? What will it do, and how, and how will you measure it?

Um, well, we will measure it in the performance of the discovery and development, uh, process. Um, it will, uh, reduce cost, reduce time, and ideally allow us to target labels for the medicines and vaccines that we have. So either the descriptions of their benefits, because we can design trials in a more precise way for patients that are specifically targeted, so you can get a disproportionate benefit. I'll give you two examples. I talked about, um, uh, three examples.

I talked about hepatitis B, which is this huge disease that impacts 250 million people. But there are very different profiles within that. By being able to do um, uh, much more precision, uh profiling, phenotyping of patients, we're then able to design clinical trials to show a disproportionate, um, uh, impact on a smaller cohort, not all of them. So that you can then get to what we call a functional cure, as in people can then live with the disease, uh, more normally.

Our early trials are showing that we're going to have readouts of phase three, uh, as well. That would be one example. Another would be when you look at the biomarkers around um different cancer types, so in uh colorectal, uh cancer from learnings we did in endometrial cancer. Actually, we looked at a particular um, uh, genetic marker called D M M R, um, which, uh, allowed us to be much more precise, uh, on the targeting in in cancer.

And then have trials where we've had, I mean, in the early stages, 100% success rates, which has allowed us to then go into at risk phase three trials. Another example would be accelerated our R S V vaccine, and this is a simpler one, accelerated our R S V vaccine. Um, uh, outcomes by two years because we were able to look at the infectious disease patterns in different parts of the globe, uh, and call the closure of clinical trials earlier.

And we've got a vaccine that has over 90% efficacy on those that represent 90% of the hospitalizations. So at the moment, these are spot examples.

Do you think it will improve E. the hit rates Yes, without with which any doubt, you're bringing the earlier stage, uh, breakthroughs?

without any doubt, and that's the most important fact. In f in fact, I think what we're going to do, I think this, I five years, I'd say definitely within ten years, and I hope we'll have more and more examples along that way. But instead of having this linear process, we're going to move to more of a lab in a loop, which is an overused term. But you actually get into reverse translation, patient back, um, uh, rather than target out, so that we can get to, frankly, um, faster, better outcomes with more precise targeting for for patient cohorts.

But Emma, um, aren't all pharmaceutical companies doing this?

I hope so. I mean, I I hope there's a

I hope so, too. there's a lot, there's I mean, a lot if not, I think you need to be pretty thick. But the thing is that what is it going to do to the competitive landscape?

well, what I hope. I mean, Nicola, let's just step back. In the end, our job is to meet the enormous amount of unmet need there is out there in the world. And most of what we do doesn't work. I think it is a wonderful thing if this industry that frankly has, you know, too many negative Netflix movies made out about it, is able to show the world, uh, what science and technology combined can do for good.

We still have so many diseases that don't have s uh solutions around the world. You know, one of the biggest ones, the most exciting area for science, I think, for the long term, where we don't have good solutions in, is is in everything to do with neurodegeneration, dementia and Alzheimer's. The trajectory of disease is going to change, uh, hugely, I think, over the next ten or twenty years. If you imagine that metabolic disorders that are going to be, I think, you know, um, and their sequelae, because of what's going on in these amazing discoveries in the obesity drugs, is going to be less of a burden.

But we're going to have triple the number of over eighties in twenty years time than we have today. And, you know, I'm afraid, like I'm going shingles, but way

to be the I'm going more. to be the soon. But

Well, no, no, but if you're in our age group again, the probability for all the brains in the room, the probability of, um, uh, of dementia or Alzheimer's, I'm afraid, is again one in three.

yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. So we need solutions But the the

to that.

the the um, uh, introduction of of, uh, increasing technologies into into R D and so on. Um, are the U. S. companies going to be better positioned than the Europeans?

I wouldn't say that. I mean, we have some great European, um, you know, uh, based pharma companies with proud histories and strong innovation. And I Or are we held think, as a

back by increased regulation and different, um, well, the different ways of looking at, uh, technology, a i, and so on?

the the, uh, I would say the first of all, the um, American tech companies supply the world, they don't only supply, uh, the u. s. Um, I do think the question of regulation is important. You, you know, you and we need, uh, growth focused regulation. But honestly, Nicola, I think it's really important that we have responsible regulation too, on questions like quality, privacy, um, security, uh, uh. I think it's important that Europe opens, uh, up, uh, the possibilities, um, because we have strong regulators in the E M A and the F D A and the M H R A here in in in the U K.

But we have to recognize the most important thing we do is bring trusted, safe, scale solutions, and patients are waiting. So, What are you um,

now seeing coming out of China and India?

a lot. The share of first in class drugs developed in China, the pace of, uh, clinical development, the pace of innovation approval are all speeding up a lot. And we're doing quite a lot of, uh, business development, finding great assets in China that, you know, want to, um, export their drugs, uh, to to the world.

Now, in the medical sector, there's always, uh, a trade-off between how you price your drugs and the availability and affordability. Is you don't think there is a trade-off?

Well, I think they're both, they're. I think there's occasionally tensions, but I don't, I don't has the tension think I think,

changed? is the ten tension changing in any way?

well, I don't see these as an either or in any way. I think they are structurally, they have to be an. And because you're not innovating unless you do it at scale. A G S K, we say we want to reach 2.5 billion people, uh, this decade. It's one of the things that differentiates, uh, us. I think there is, um, is the scale of our impact relative to our size. I think there is a huge misunderstanding about the economics of our industry in terms of, um, the the the pricing that is required to cover the cost of failure and the value that drugs and vaccines bring to a healthcare system.

And remember, what's expensive is treating sick people and having them in hospital. We all know an earlier diagnosis is better, an earlier intervention is better. So so we need to value, uh, the innovation and recognize that there are so many diseases that don't have solutions yet. But at the same time, we have a social responsibility, I believe, to drive access. And there are 2 billion people in the world that don't have access to the healthcare they need.

And it's not just a developing country agenda, by the way. G S K has been top of the access medicine, or second to the of the access to medicines index every single year since it was founded. Um, and we're really proud of the work we do with Gavi to provide tiered pricing on vaccines with in Hiv, where of the 28 million people that are on, uh, these, um, uh, integrase inhibitors, twenty three of them are million of them in the world, mainly in, uh, in sub-Saharan Africa.

Because we opened up our I P to provide, uh, those drugs there. So, so, I think it's not an either or, it is an and. But we have to do a better job of communicating also about, um, you know, the business model, um, and the value that our industry brings, and take these responsibilities in, you know, extremely seriously. And it's not just a developing country issue. Uh, Nicola, I mean, you know, in London, between East London and South West London, there's a twelve-year difference, um, between life expectancy and in your beautiful country, you know, access to medicines.

I checked this, um, uh, I was just looking at it be before coming here. But I think of the 278, I think it was, uh, medicines, uh, this is in 2022 that were centrally approved in Europe, 40% of them are not yet available in Norway. But I'm just saying that access is not simply a question of, you know, uh, what? We're familiar with talking in terms of aid to the poorest countries in the world, in the richest countries in the world.

Sometimes it's getting approvals, uh, on time, and this is where the U S is definitely ahead, definitely ahead.

drilling down on vaccines, uh, now you're a global leader in vaccines. What did we learn from Covid? well, a lot. Um, Top three things?

uh, older adult vaccination, uh, is a really important, uh, contribution to healthcare and society. A lot of us are used to vaccinating our children and have been familiar with flu vaccines, but you're seeing this opening up of vaccine technology for older adults. Supply chain s security geopolitically, um, is something that we all have to be thoughtful about, um, and certainly something that that G S K has invested in, uh, you know, very aggressively in terms of regional supply chains, not just, um, in vaccines, but also in in medicines.

Um, last year we announced another 800 million that we're spending in in both medicine and vaccine, um, manufacturing in the U. S. Uh, we also have strong European supply chains, and we have partnerships in China, um, for distribution of, uh, uh, of vaccines. And then I think the third thing, if I'm only allowed three, although I could make the list go on, is, um, you know, we really have to watch out for the questions of vaccine hesitancy around the world.

And there's been a bit of politicization of that specifically through through Covid, um, but so so but you know, this

how come that? is a real so how come? issue. I mean, vaccines, uh, got the world back on its feet? And then now there's so much misinformation and vaccine hesitancy and anti-vax and so on. Just um, why? why is this?

let's remember vaccines, by definition, are being given to healthy children or adults. It is preventative care. So you wake up in the morning, you have. I, I can remember, I'm, I'm a mum of four. I remember taking my brand new babies, by the way, which were born in. I have experience of three different countries of giving, giving birth, and you have different vaccine policies, or it felt like you did. And you have these questions like, Well, this precious newborn, what is this?

what am I giving them? what's it mean? Um, and you want to have information. Then I think obviously we went through the global experience of Covid, which engendered, um, you know, huge pressure on the healthcare systems. Um, uh, I think, uh, you know, a lot of national protectionism, tremendous energy around vaccines and a focus on some brand new technologies that had never been developed in vaccines before. And people had questions about that. They had simultaneous fears about the risks involved and the news that was coming every day.

And then new technologies that, you know, they were being. They wanted to make sure that they could trust the communication about. So it does come back to these questions of trust and And what does and transparency.

G S K do here?

Well, our answer is is what it has always been, okay, which is you start off by saying, if you have the responsibility of, as we do today, frankly, vaccinating forty of the world's children through our global programs. And a p a pipeline of new vaccines of listening hard to people's questions, communicating transparently, underpinning everything with 100% commitment to quality and safety and trust in our products. Uh, and remembering, shouting trust us, um, you know, as a frankly, a company that is a public company with responsibilities to shareholders and that has to generate profits from these things is not the most effective way.

So we see to partner with governments to provide the data in total transparency and to frankly go to where people are with their questions, be it in the community, because that often is that, um, uh, as well. But also not to lose sight of the fact that, I mean, you know, the U. S spends $9 billion a year on the hospitalization of people from vaccine-preventable diseases. Um, so, you know, I think we're working through an age where people have questions.

And we just need to calmly, um, continue to underpin our work with, uh, you know, the the value set that that we've been committed to for generations, uh, and and, uh, keep answering people's questions in a

Bill, um, Bill Gates wrote a book about how, uh, the next pandemic could be, uh, handled better by spending, I think it's roughly $1 billion per year. But that's not happening. So why are we not preparing ourselves better for the next pandemic?

well, I think we are actually, at least inside the industry. Although I agree with you that, you know, memories feel a bit short, don't they? Uh, at the moment. And the challenges around this one is you're trying to keep capacity warm, if I can say that. Um, uh, now the reality is at G S K, we have contracts today with, uh, Europe, the U S, Canada, around pandemic preparedness. Um, be it to be ready with our adjuvant, or, uh, and and and sort of pre-pandemic assets.

We have, um, you know, uh, some prioritized reviews for pre-ndemic, uh, flu vaccines. And, in fact, we're contracted also with the W H O to make sure that I think 10% of any ready supply would also be immediately available. Um, to, uh, you know, some of the more underdeveloped countries in the world. So I would say there is better preparation. Um, we won't be able to stop another pandemic coming, but I hope the world, um, yeah, will will remember, uh, and that we will mobilize faster before such.

So many lives are lost. But I'll tell you something else that we are really thoughtful about at G S K, which is a different kind of pandemic. And where, and that's, um, sometimes referred to as the slow one, which is antimicrobial resistance, which will kill. I think it's 38 million people by twenty fifty unless we develop more antibiotics. And we have a very big portfolio and pipeline. Uh, here, last year we, uh, invested, I think, 40 million with the um, uh, the the Fleming work that's done led out of the U K, um, with Imperial as well, to to try and research, you cause this is know, more.

where the U K is very strong, right? Well, it's This area. got a proud history, Yeah,

uh, in a m r, and I think, you know, this is killing people all over the world. It's a real challenge in antibiotics, because obviously you're asking the industry to develop drugs that you then don't want to be over subscribed. Um, so, you know, but we've we. I'm actually one of the five approvals I'm hoping to get this year is for a brand new antibiotic. And and, um, you know, the common, uh, very common for women, uh, uh, u t i, uncomplicated u t I space.

We haven't had a new antibiotic for twenty years. Um, so, uh, you know, I'm hopeful we'll get that approved later this year.

you mentioned that, uh, I will soon be going going to be eighty years old. Uh, now, um,

I didn't mention that, but yeah, that was,

no, um, the elderly, uh, need to get a lot of vaccines, right? flu, Covid, shingles, pneumonia. Um, when will we see a combination of all these things into into one shot?

there is ongoing work, um, on combo vaccines from us and from others. Uh, we're used to having some combination vaccines with pediatric vaccines. Um, I think the thing you have to think through is what is, uh, well, it's not as simple as just adding them together, obviously. Um, but but you also have to think through what the durability of different vaccines is. So I'll give you the example. Our R S V vaccine we now know has that's a seasonal, um, uh, respiratory infection.

We know we have protection, probably it'll at least three years, maybe it will go up to five. So, and flu tends to be something that mutates, obviously, every single year. So, you know, you, you have to think about what the combinations would be when you're providing a solution that is required on an annual basis, or, you know, uh, more extended like that. So it's it's a bit more complicated. I think there are new technology platforms that will, um, allow, uh, uh, more combinations potentially.

So M r n a is one that that we and others are are looking at. Um, uh, but the science here is quite complex. Um, and again, you want to be in a place where you're looking at both efficacy and reactogenicity as well to see whether that combination is is is um is going to be an effective solution. But definitely something that's on the horizon.

Moving on a bit, you came into, uh, G S K with a remit of, uh, dramatically change the company. What are some of the dramatic changes you've, you've done?

well, I, I don't know whether dramatic is the word that I'd want to, um, uh, use to describe it, but certainly, uh, very significant change in uh, group strategy, structure, capital allocation, um, balance sheet, which was a major challenge when we when we came in, which is part of the reason why we did the demerger of hailion. I mean, I'd originally joined which is where you G S K. Yeah, I mean,

came from, right?

my my background was in consumer goods. I moved from China to London to, uh, build the consumer division of G S K. And we went through two massive global joint ventures, firstly with Novartis's portfolio and integrations, frankly, uh, and then with Pfizer's. And and then, you know, when I was C E O, it became very, very obvious that, um, uh, to me, that to solve that. That a business that we'd built up from, I don't know, four to 10 billion in sales, um, was never going to be the primary, uh, recipient of capital allocation.

And it was sort of locked up division inside G S K that I never got a single question on at quarterly results. And so it would be much better to set that business free, and I'm delighted to see how brilliantly they're doing with that. But also use that to reset the balance sheet and, uh, uh, of G S K, and frankly, enable this fuelling of growth and a step change in growth, How far, uh, through pipeline.

how far are you into the into your change plan now?

Well, um, you know, I was really pleased at the beginning of this year to upgrade our twenty thirty one outlook for the second time. And that's, you know, we've added another 7 billion to the outlook. Just in four years. That means we'll grow 17 billion this decade in sales, which, you know, when I when I started, we were only just over twenty. So on the biopharma bit, so I'm really pleased with the progre progress. But the work is never, ever done.

Um, on this, because, as I said, you know, in our industry, we have to reinvent ourselves every decade cause of the rolling patent, uh, What's the biggest, model.

what's the biggest mentality change you have Oh, well, this made?

is my favorite question.

Well, mine too, you see,

So we should, we should delete the rest of this podcast and just start here. Cause

can't we?

that is, um, uh, I, I like the way you said mentality, by the way, because you, if you say what was the radical change that I wanted to drive for, I think culture is is, you know, definitely one of the things that we've been, uh, working hard to change most. What was the country And that's

or what was the country in the past?

well. It's a company that's been around for over 300 years in a whole variety of forms, so so it's got a long and proud history. Um, but when I was asked to start, it was to change the performance trajectory of the company whilst retaining some things that have made it very special for a long time. Including a commitment to global health, including a deeply collaborative culture. Um, because this is an industry where partnership and and serendipity, um, uh, matter, um, because it's hard, and because, you know, it's the clash of brains and ideas, um, and creative friction, uh, that can create, uh, good things.

But I think we've become, for all the pride in our purpose to change the course of disease and to provide access to medicines. And we'd lost our way in terms of performance edge, in terms of looking outside the company. This happens in a lot of big companies, by the way, that you get heavily matrixed, you spend, you think a day at work is doing good meeting, and you don't. You're not agile enough, um, and you start to think that all good science is inside, whereas

So how do you change this?

it is. First of all, you say it's really important and you make it one of the stated priorities for the company. So I, I've been very aggressive since I started to say, look, we've got three priorities, which are innovation, performance and trust. Um, writ large. Obviously, we take our strategic direction in the therapy areas we're going to work in, and, you know, specialty medicines and vaccines. But we underpin that and we power that by culture. So you say culture is the rIs.

It's not an H R issue, it's not something we write on the wall, it is literally the job of the leadership of the company. C E O first, by the way, and I think that is the secret source of everything. Because when you're running a company of, you know, at the beginning it was 100,000 people, we're now seventy or so. Um, y, you know, you can't you. You have to set an environment that doesn't need constant oversight or inspection, it's just the way we work.

So we, we, we spent a lot of time defining what we wanted that culture to be. Uh, at a leadership level, and we say three simple things ambitious for patients, because that's the point of everything, and there's a notion of ambition in there, which is delivering what matters better and faster. Uh, accountable for our impact, and that is about results, not process, which we needed to shift being a big government department in the way we do things, a lot more individual accountability.

Um, but in the spirit of, uh, um, clear ownership, and I think that's what sometimes goes wrong in collaborative organizations, is that there's a bit too much by committee. I'm a big believer in single point accountable decision making, so clear ownership and a positive mindset of support to succeed, So and then doing the right thing. We have to do that

so, this is all very good. So this is what you say, and this is what your leader group say. But how do you get it through? how do you get it down through the permafrost level in the organization?

really simple. You define it, and you just said it, you get the message done there. You never stop talking about it. You use a common language worldwide, worldwide, every single country. When I go and and visit, I ask for a session on culture explicitly. Okay, you appoint for it. I've been very, I mean, the the the. The overhaul in talent in the company is one of the most radical things that that that we've done. And by the way, it's foundationally.

My philosophy of leadership is it's always about people, and it's people that define culture, it's how they show up every day, it's the way you manage people. So you're incredibly intentional about your talent processes. I bet you are in orders as well. I mean, there's no way you're Yeah, but you don't not.

I mean, you don't appoint people at level six and seven, right?

No, not at six and seven, but there is a shadow of a leader principle. I spend a lot of time looking at succession planning. Uh, two weeks ago, I spent three days with the next generation, top thirty, um, literally, uh, and I am very planful, not on my own, because it's a team effort with the leadership team around their career, uh, uh, development. This is purely three days of development on on people and talking about culture.

It's at the heart of it. You incentivize it, soft and hard incentives. So you will, I mean, I, we change the, I mean, literally down to the bonus system for the for the organization. Um, you, uh, you promote for it and you fire for it. So, you know, there's that those famous matrices about the high performers with the bad culture. You know, when I've made mistakes on people, it's usually for cultural reasons. Um, uh, so that's really important, and you measure it.

And how do you screen? how do you screen for attitude? So here I am, and you're interviewing me. I'm, uh, applying now, level five. Uh, I would love to work in G S K. Now, how are you going to figure out whether Well, I'm the right attitude?

referencing, I'm a big fan of referencing as Alright, a assistant

you're calling out my brain, informant. my

Yeah, I mean, but also we do, we have, we do surveys, and we also do something called one eighties, which sounds a bit, you know, we're all familiar with the three sixty thing. One eighty is purely your team, uh, giving feedback on you, completely anonymously in this case, and we all do it. I have one on me as well, and we we look at the um, and we spend time talking about that in our mid-year and our year-end reviews.

So so listen, here, here's what I would say. The work is not done, and I am sure, in fact, I know there are still things that, um, we've got room for a lot more improvement on. But my goodness, the culture of the organization has shifted. You also look at where you spend your time, Nicola. I mean, I don't know how how you work on this, but you know, I if you want

spend, I spend 55% of my time internally in the company, because I tag every hour of but how my time.

how do you work on culture specifically?

Oh, I do it all This is, the time. I mean, I'm but this is our every time I get job. the microphone, every time, every time I meet people, it's always, so you, so, I'm, I'm, I'm a maniac so, but about it.

and and we need to stay that way. And by the way, the other thing you have to remember is if you're recruit, if you, if you look at your workforce, and if a third of it is new in the last three years. Don't forget, uh, don't, don't believe for a microsecond that what you said in a town hall last time in the country has been heard. So you have to be relentless on it.

tell me about, uh, Emma Walmsley, 180 degree survey.

Well, I'm not sure I want to publish that completely, but listen, um, people, uh, know that I care deeply about the company, um, and individuals development, um, and, uh, I'm hard driving on clarity of strategy and ownership, uh, of objectives. I could do a better job of saying thank you and well done, because I have a habit, which I'm sure is all sort of deeply rooted in my childhood of of, um, of looking up the mountain.

About, you know, how much more we've got to do, rather than sometimes occasionally enjoying the view. Um, so, uh, and I think all, you know, we have to remember work is a human endeavor and everybody needs, um, uh, to celebrate the wins along the way. So I could probably do a bit more of that.

Tell me how your childhood has, uh, informed your leadership Only if style.

you do the same.

Come on, you.

Um, well, uh, I grew up in a military family, so my father was in the Navy his whole career. And I think that has definitely informed a sense of responsibility, um, and a sense of, uh, duty, um, and, uh, uh, a, a, a huge amount of, I think, frankly, a a pretty strong work ethic, um, and a lot of curiosity about, uh, the world as well. I mean, I think, um, I wasn't well traveled at all as a, you know, uh, as a young person.

But I had a chance when I was at university to go and live and work abroad. And just before I went to university, weirdly, in the nineteen eighties, I decided to take myself off to China, which is in the nineteen eighties, which was an odd thing to do. It was the first long-haul flight I'd ever been on, but that opened my mind to the world. And and uh, uh, you know, I was at because I was in in the way the system worked in the U K, I was in a in a boarding school from a very young age, um, because that was funded by the military in in in those days.

And I think that gave me a sense of independence. So I, I quite early in my career had an international career and wanted to go and do that. And that opened up all sorts of opportunities I never dreamt of having. So I had no business background in my family. But, um,

You said, um, I heard, um, somewhere you said that you need to have a really, uh, hard skin, a tough skin, to survive as a C E O. well, I think, Thick skin.

yeah. I think there's nothing more obnoxious than C E Os saying they have a hard life. Cause it's like, uh, it's an insane, um, privilege and opportunity, and especially at this time in the world, which is, you know, volatile and uncertain, as we all here and, uh, and know. But it is extremely exciting and science and tech are advancing, and there's just so much talent out there with, um, ambition and creativity. So I, you know, I think these jobs are a tremendous privilege, but with them come the reso responsibility to absorb a certain amount of public pressure and, uh, not take that personally.

Um, but I do think part of our job is also to protect the organization from that kind of distraction and and you know, that comes with the territory. So, yeah, What, you need some resilience, what, what that's

kind of things get under your skin?

look. I think, like all human beings, if you, if your organization is being distracted by public reporting that is factually incorrect, that is annoying. Um, because it's hard to, you know, w. What do people get to, uh, measure public commentary on? So, you know, I think, um, you know, my job is to keep the organization alongside my leadership team. Because, by the way, I'm really don't agree with the kind of C E O as superhero notion.

I think our first job is to hire people that's part of culture who are better than us and who stand with us in the leadership. Um, uh, you know, priorities and, uh, uh, uh, an agenda. But our job is to keep the organization focused on what it can control and what it is there to do. And our people are so inspired by the purpose of G S K. I mean, they literally, you know, blows my mind.

When you see the energy with which 15,000 scientists get up to do the near impossible. And to try, and, you know, explore new frontiers of neurodegeneration, or literally cure cancer, or help people breathe easier every day. And

where do you? you know, where do you seek? a seek advice personally?

I have a very good board and a brilliant chairman. Um, uh, I quite like the European way of the separation of these jobs. Everyone will have their different views on that.

Yeah, we we fully support that too.

Um, and, you know, a bi a good board and a and a brilliant chairman means people who challenge you to be better at the job and are at stake for the company and its stakeholders, be they patients, shareholders or our people. Um, I have technical advisors who are externals, who are experts in their fields, um, and then, um, I have, I suppose, we. Maybe they're not advisors as much as the sort of support system of your family.

I my children are adult now, so they're they. Uh, it's not that I they advise me on the strategy of G S K, but they sometimes they remind me to keep my feet very firmly on the ground in terms of what matters in in life and the point of it all.

You have, um, an honours system in the U K, and you were, uh, you were named a dame, right? you are Dame Emma, right? Um, what did? what did that do to you, you think?

well, it was a surprise. That was certainly true. Um, I think it was a very important moment for my parents, actually, um, and my family. And then sometimes, I mean, it's an incredible honor, and I, uh, I never dreamt that my life would, um, take the path it has. And that's, you know, I'm a I'm a great patriot, I'm a I'm a globalist. I've lived in u mainland Europe, in the US, in China. Uh, I travel all the time.

But I, I am very proud of this country, so it m meant something. But honestly, it's not something I think about very much. I, um, um, and I usually forget,

I saw some research once that when you get an honor like that, you tend to, um, think more about all the stakeholders in society. And actually, um, you people tend to lay off less people, uh, they tend, uh, sometimes economic results or the company you run, uh, actually deteriorates. And well, I can takes a hit tell you on this. Because that it's certainly, because you, you just become, I don't know, less, uh, you become perhaps less cynical and more thinking about society overall.

Do you think there is something in that?

well. The thing I would absolutely, uh, argue against is the notion that, uh, there is a contradiction between the delivery of performance and strong financial results and being social responsible. I mean, in my industry and in my company, they are literally completely aligned. Cause if we grow, we are changing the lives of more patients. If we innovate, that's recognised by the market in terms of, you know, the value of our pipeline. So I, and by the way, if you actually look, uh, not to sound defensive, but at our track record of performance since that happened, it has been completely transformed.

That is literally probably the pivot point. But I'm afraid that it would be again. I don't want to. I would express my gratitude, but it is. It's not something I think about, and I, I honestly, I have never felt more full of energy and appetite for impact. Um, uh, but I do think it's important to remember, um, it's not only about, you know, pounds and and and dollars, it's about the lives that you change. Which is why you asked me earlier, what are the biggest medicines?

And I answered in terms of revenue, actually, uh, I think it would be fair to say that last year we. The biggest medicine, or one of the biggest medicines that we gave were donations. F. I think 440 million donations of doses, um, of a drug that's for, uh, a neglected tropical disease in in Africa, which we've called lymphatic filariasis, um, a horrible disease, um, uh, and the scale of lives, you know, protected, uh, from that is is really meaningful.

So I think we do have to think in a multi-stakeholder world, but nothing will happen unless we are financially successful, because we need to fund the next wave of innovation.

A bit more, um, uh, on the personal frontier at the end, um, what is energy

well, for me, it's something, uh, that is fueled, um, and allows you to, uh, keep getting back up, whatever the challenges are. But also inspire others as a leader to do more than they ever dreamt possible, both individually, but also as scale, uh, in and where in terms do you get your of

energy from?

purpose, um, opportunity, curiosity, other human beings, um, uh, the love of my family. And the deep belief that you get one life and you shouldn't waste a single second of it.

What are you trying to learn these days?

Oh, everything about what's possible. I mean, I'm just, I am so f uh, fascinated by how technology is going to change society again. I mean, as it always has done, by the way, I think we think we're in a uniquely privileged moment, but probably people have done throughout throughout history. Um, I've been lucky enough to have, you know, a lot of exposure to, um, to the world. And and uh, issues that matter to society more broadly, and the role of business in society, and all of those things I'm extremely curious about.

But I, you know, I, I get annoyed when I walk into libraries about all the books I haven't read. So what about you?

What do you read now?

Oh, I've got about, I've got far too many books going on. I've just finished, um, a novel, uh, called Demon Copperhead. I don't know if you've read it, but it's, uh, brilliant, absolutely extraordinary and so clever in terms of, um, fantastic. the David Copperfield, uh, uh, alignment. I listen to things when I'm exercising badly in the gym, occasionally, I, I'm, I love, I mean, I mean, I'm originally a literature student, so I like, I like poetry.

I don't get enough time to read, to be honest. It's one of the things. If I, if I could have a, I was gonna say, a bad habit, but it's not a bad habit, it'd be a very Well, poetry good habit.

I have in common with, uh, Sir Janadella. He's actually the only one we've had on the podcast series who reads poetry or who talks about reading poetry. Uh, well, you know, So it's two of you. So it I didn't it's, it's

know that. I'll have to ask fits well, him about it. you have I, I definitely to. can't talk to him about cricket, so I should ask him about that.

When do you wake up in the morning?

Early I'm an early morning person. I mean, by the way, because I travel so much, I don't know whether it's morning or night. I've, I'm, and I'm, I'm good at sleeping, but normally my alarm is set for five.

What is your advice to young people?

Well, first of all, I will answer that question if you answer it, and I would say, uh, three things. First of all, don't listen to the advice of old people too much. Um, second of all, um, you know, we, we invented a sort of family motto when the kids were little, which for us was be was. And this is probably us just trying to shorthand what parents thought you should do, which was, which, which was be kind, be brave, and be truthful.

And I still stand by that. I'd probably add, um, be curious, because I think, L, I think to to. I worry about the pressure that's on young people today, who all seem to be worrying about strategising their careers. I don't know how much strategising your career you did. I said none, like, literally none. I think. My entire work experience was waitressing when I left university, and then I just worked really hard at things I thought were really interesting and opportunities arose.

I mean, like, luck was a huge part of it, but I think they put too much pressure on themselves. And and and should genuinely be just crazy curious to learn as much as they can in this exciting world at the moment. And then the last thing I would say is, I think the title of your podcast, which I'm now going to be very enthusiastic about listening to all the past episodes of, is brilliant. Um, because what matters in life is the company you keep.

So whether it's personally or professionally, hang out with extraordinary people who teach you a lot and make you laugh. Uh, help you get up again when you fall over, um, and stretch you to do more than you ever thought you could do.

well, Dame Emma Walmsley, you are for sure an amazing person and a big thanks for coming here. Well, Thank you.

it's been such a pleasure, but what about you? You've got to tell me the last answer yourself. What do you say to young That'll be people?

a separate podcast.