# #2576 - Dr. Peter McCullough

- **Show:** The Joe Rogan Experience
- **Published:** 4 Nov 2026
- **Source:** https://traffic.megaphone.fm/GLT1721245652.mp3
- **Transcript:** https://podcasts.opennash.com/shows/joe-rogan-experience/2576-dr-peter-mccullough-654ada/
- **Provider:** OpenNash Podcasts (machine-generated)

## In brief

Peter McCullough, a cardiologist and chief scientific officer of The Wellness Company, tells Joe Rogan that pandemic-era officials, regulators and media suppressed early treatments and promoted mass vaccination. He says words like "misinformation" were used to silence doctors, and that COVID vaccines carry serious harms that journals and agencies will not admit. These are his views, and many are disputed by mainstream health agencies.

The episode moves from censorship and the origins of the virus to a long history of vaccine "ideology", then to specific health claims about treatments, vaccine side effects, testing and cancer. The tension is between McCullough's confident assertions and his own point that science is inference and ambiguity. He ends with personal costs, his company's products and fiscal worries.

## Key insights

1. **McCullough says "misinformation" became a weaponized label** He traces the word from roughly 1500 through Nazi propaganda to a 2018 dictionary word of the year. He argues it let officials claim moral superiority and punish doctors who departed from official policy.
2. **He says a "biopharmaceutical complex" aligned the pandemic response** He names the WHO, Gates Foundation, Wellcome Trust, CEPI and regulators as a network that coordinated, and cites pre-pandemic exercises like Event 201. He claims these planned for a vaccine-only response.
3. **He frames vaccination as a three-century quasi-religion** Starting with Cotton Mather's 1721 smallpox inoculation, he argues fear, money and hubris built a faith-like devotion. He cites a Vatican coin and politicians calling vaccines a "gift from God".
4. **He claims early treatment could have prevented 85% of deaths** He says monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin and his multi-drug protocol were suppressed, and that he testified to the Senate that 85% of COVID deaths were avoidable. These are his claims, not established consensus.
5. **He argues COVID vaccine harms are denied by journals** He describes spike protein persisting for years, heart, stroke and cancer risks, and says journals and institutions that mandated the shots will not publish risk-over-benefit conclusions. He cites patient cases and papers but offers no controlled evidence in the conversation.

## Questions this episode answers

### What is Peter McCullough's main argument in this episode?

He argues that officials, regulators and media suppressed cheap early treatments and pushed mass vaccination during COVID, and that the vaccines caused serious harm. These are his own claims and the episode is largely one-sided.

### What does McCullough mean by the "biopharmaceutical complex"?

It is his term for an aligned network of groups such as the WHO, the Gates Foundation, the Wellcome Trust, CEPI and national regulators. He says they coordinated a single vaccine-focused response to the pandemic.

### Why does he say the word "misinformation" is a problem?

He says it was almost absent from medical literature before 2020 and was used to accuse people with differing views, letting authorities punish doctors who broke policy. He gives examples such as the FTC suing supplement makers and licensing boards acting against doctors.

### What is "spike detox" and who sells it?

McCullough describes it as a supplement mix of nattokinase, bromelain and curcumin that he says clears vaccine-produced spike protein from the body. The Wellness Company, where he is chief scientific officer, sells the lead product, and he says they chose not to patent it.

### Does the episode show evidence that most of his claims are proven?

Mostly it gives anecdotes, individual papers he cites by author name, and his own opinion, with little pushback from the host. Listeners should treat the health claims as his assertions and check them against independent sources.

## Facts

- **Peter McCullough** [0:02:29]: "And you can find it in the English language around 1500."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:03:05]: "believe it or not, in 2018, it was word of the year in Webster's, uh, dictionary of of all the words."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:07:49]: "a great company in Salt Lake Clear Nate Jones, the CEO, Nate Jones, gets a lawsuit from the Federal Trade Commission."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:10:40]: "when the WHO put out a UM white paper in 2019, it was called A World at Risk, and it had a diagram."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:12:30]: "the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovation, it was founded by Gates Foundation, a World Economic Forum, and a few companies."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:13:27]: "In 1986, uh, that's when it was memorialized as the the liability protection."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:14:58]: "to help the Chinese build the biosecurity annex in Wuhan, China, at the Wuhan Institute of Virology."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:15:37]: "he's on record telling his wife, Listen, there's probably less than 5% chance this will ever be successful."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:21:02]: "And the 1st paper was written by Christian Anderson from Scripps, and it was written in Nature, and it says the natural origins of SARS-CoV-2."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:34:09]: "we started with Cotton Mather in 1721 in Boston"
- **Peter McCullough** [0:35:14]: "Variolation is taking a little, you know, little pustule, the little blister that you have with smallpox"
- **Peter McCullough** [0:37:55]: "This is 2022. This is a 20 euro coin issued by the Vatican."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:42:24]: "prospective, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of giving vitamin A to critical kids with measles, pneumonitis in the New England Journal of Medicine, and it reduced mortality."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:47:06]: "December 10th, 2020, when it rolls out, they said, Well, damn, the torpedoes, everybody takes it."
- **Peter McCullough** [0:56:51]: "Do you know of all the patients admitted to the hospital with COVID, only 15% of them got monoclonal antibodies?"
- **Peter McCullough** [1:02:02]: "Event 201, which is October of 2019, New York City, again, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health."
- **Peter McCullough** [1:05:02]: "the WHO, November of 2020, comes out with a statement with the European Society of Critical Care."
- **Peter McCullough** [1:05:54]: "No, it was a a failed Ebola drug. And the WHO is strictly saying, do not use it."
- **Peter McCullough** [1:09:04]: "Matter of fact, the AMA in 2021 came out with an official policy."
- **Peter McCullough** [1:22:35]: "in August of 2021, Rochelle Walensky comes out, and this is a this is a press release."
- **Peter McCullough** [1:35:27]: "They were made by the same manufacturer, Emergent Biosolutions out of Baltimore, a biodefense contractor."
- **Peter McCullough** [1:36:23]: "There's a disease named after it. It's called VITT vaccine-induced thrombotic thrombocytopenia."
- **Peter McCullough** [1:41:44]: "Kariko and Weissman had, you know, were gonna win the Nobel Prize for inventing this in in in 2022, and they got it"
- **Peter McCullough** [1:44:59]: "it was 8.9% of people took a booster last year"
- **Peter McCullough** [1:51:34]: "It's the reason why we formed the wellness company in 2022, because we were fulfilling an unmet need."
- **Peter McCullough** [2:06:52]: "They were using SV40. The Institute of Medicine was called in, they did a big review."
- **Peter McCullough** [2:16:45]: "the CDC was looking at this and said, Listen, no matter whatever you do, lab companies, don't go past 25 cycles"
- **Peter McCullough** [2:33:52]: "Our US. spend on our budget in 2004 was 2.2 trillion with a T."

## Transcript

**[0:00:01] Speaker 3:** Joe Rogan podcast check it out. The Joe Rogan experience Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night all day.

**[0:00:13] Joe Rogan:** Doctor, you're welcome. Good to see you, sir. Get back You were the 1st guy that got me canceled. I think about Covid. Yeah, it's you, it's either you or Malone. One of you guys was, uh, the beginning of, like, all the like, the White House and CNN and everything. When they all came down on me, it was, uh, it was your misinformation that all turned out to be true.

**[0:00:39] Peter McCullough:** so sorry.

**[0:00:41] Joe Rogan:** Don't be sorry at all. It was great, turned out well, uh, for me, uh, but it was, uh, fascinating to watch. H what? What has it been like for you? These? We haven't seen each other in 5 years. Um, what has it been like?

**[0:00:56] Peter McCullough:** Well, but, you know, before I came on the 1st time, eh eh, had anybody accused you of misinformation before that?

**[0:01:02] Joe Rogan:** No, not really. No, I And don't. I don't believe so.

**[0:01:04] Peter McCullough:** had the word even come up,

**[0:01:06] Joe Rogan:** No, I don't mean, perhaps I doubt it, though, because we never really talked about anything serious, you know, it was the the Covid crisis was, like, the 1st time I was ever really confronted with a very obvious psyop like. It was. It was very obvious that we were being fed some very filtered information, we were being gaslit, and there was a narrative that you were being forced to push. And I wasn't going with it. And when I experienced the pushback, I mean, like, like I said, from the fucking White House, like watching the White House press secretary saying that Spotify needs to do more to censor me, and watching, Uh, I mean, Spotify got calls from the president, they got

**[0:01:48] Joe Rogan:** call my my management got calls from the White House. It was wild.

**[0:01:53] Peter McCullough:** you know, before 2020, before the pandemic, the word misinformation never appeared in the medical literature. Really, Never, and in fact, by 2021, it's called a MeSH term. Now it's an official term in the National Library of Medicine. There are scientific instruments that measure misinformation that you can actually, uh, assess someone on a Covid-19 misinformation scale. really, So I looked into this and I said, Where in the world did this come from? Wi th this this word?

**[0:02:29] Peter McCullough:** And you can find it in the English language around 1500. And then, uh, I can tell you, during Nazi Germany, it was Goebbels, who's run the office of propaganda. Oh, my lord, what a useful word they found it as a propaganda word. So if someone you didn't like, you could accuse them of spreading misinformation. So as soon as you make that accusation, you achieve moral superiority, that you hold information, the person you don't like is spreading misinformation.

**[0:03:05] Peter McCullough:** It it became very powerful. Then, believe it or not, in 2018, it was word of the year in Webster's, uh, dictionary of of all the words. It became such a powerful word, so it was ready to go and be weaponized in the pandemic. You and I just were on the uh, we were on the naivete side of things. We didn't see this coming, and we went on, and before you know it, that th these were these, this was flying around.

**[0:03:32] Joe Rogan:** I never would have imagined that talking about things that are facts would become such a problem. And then there's the reality that no one ever corrected all the things that they got wrong, whether it's Rachel Maddow or all these different people on television, or even the White House itself. All these people that were saying things that turned out to absolutely be incorrect. There was never any, there was never any correction, there was never any

**[0:04:00] Peter McCullough:** D Anybody say they're sorry, no, no, nobody ever no one, said they're sorry. No, not a single person.

**[0:04:05] Joe Rogan:** no, not even people that I know that were wrong about it, not even people that I know that were wrong about it. That got vaccine injured.

**[0:04:13] Peter McCullough:** What other circumstance in human life, uh, does it greatly impact people, large numbers of people, and in the end, no one apologizes for harm? Can you think of anything? No, not I've found How about war, right? Oh, uh, we went to war. No one ever says we made a mistake, no one ever said we're sorry, no one ever apologizes. When it's a big time thing like war, and this pandemic, as it rolled out, in many ways, it had the characteristics of war, in the sense of we were invaded by a virus.

**[0:04:54] Peter McCullough:** And the AC. The response was to behave like we were at war. And a lot of the, uh, the statutes that we'd relied upon, the Bioshield Act and the PREP Act, what have you, uh, you know, they used military terms, you know, there were countermeasures, and they were. The public was at risk, and the government was gonna step in and gonna take control. But whatever happened, all of these countermeasures were immune from liability. So is if the pandemic was a war now, maybe you're ready to go to war.

**[0:05:28] Peter McCullough:** Looking at you, Joe, you're, you're so jacked, you're, you could probably take on somebody. Look at me, I I can't go to war, look at me. Um, but what happened in this pandemic, which I thought was very, very interesting, is that we were told, Listen, there's a war, a virus is coming, the government is providing countermeasures. But oh, wait a minute, you doctors, you're the ones, and the nurses, you're the ones that are gonna have to do the fighting.

**[0:05:54] Peter McCullough:** The the CDC doesn't treat any patients, HHS and the FDA doesn't treat any patients. You're gonna have to treat the patients. So, in a sense, you're a foot soldier in this war that we didn't ask for. That's where I found myself

**[0:06:07] Joe Rogan:** Yeah, for the 1st time in your career.

**[0:06:09] Peter McCullough:** for 1st time in my career. I said, Well, what am I gonna do? Well, I have to make some decisions. It's not about shooting rifles, but I have to make medical decisions, and that's what I did, and I made the what I thought was the best decisions I could make. And before you knew it, as you learned, I got in deep trouble

**[0:06:26] Joe Rogan:** Yeah, is that the 1st time that you can recall where people were getting in trouble for correctly treating people that helped them? Cause? By the use of hydroxychloroquine, by the use of ivermectin, they became so controversial that doctors were getting in trouble and losing their licenses for providing patients with medication. That had not just efficacy, but there was, there was real studies that showed that, especially Uttar Pradesh and India. There's studies that showed that people that used these medications were more protected and were safer.

**[0:07:10] Peter McCullough:** all over the world, Joe. This happened all over the world instantaneously. That was the most astounding thing to me. Is that, wait a minute, how can the entire world agree on something all at once? And talk about people losing their license? There were thousands of doctors in France and Australia that literally just. It was almost immediate if they had tried to help somebody with Covid. And before you know it, you know, in in early 2020, the Federal Trade Commission came out with the Covid misinformation policy, Federal Trade Commission, what do they govern?

**[0:07:49] Peter McCullough:** Nutraceuticals and supplements. Before you know it, a great company in Salt Lake Clear Nate Jones, the CEO, Nate Jones, gets a lawsuit from the Federal Trade Commission. It says, and you're being sued, you personally, Nate Jones and the Clear Corporation, for studying your products, which are nasal sprays and gargles against SARS-CoV-2. Just studying Just studying. He was putting the results on his website. That's all. N Nate was doing. This went on for 4 years. They tried to drain him dry on legal fees.

**[0:08:21] Joe Rogan:** what, what? What was the charges? If so, if if they're suing him, what are they saying that he's doing incorrectly?

**[0:08:27] Peter McCullough:** It's violation of their policies that, in a sense, these policies were corrected, were erected. A. And I faced the same thing with American Board of Internal Medicine. I had no idea a policy was coming, but as soon as this policy is violated, now there's an opportunity for the government or whatever authority is to inflict harm. A professional reprisal against him. In the case of the Federal Trade Commission happened to Dr. Eric Nepute, who's running a com a company.

**[0:08:59] Peter McCullough:** Vitamin D Eric had great data on vitamin D. It turns out vitamin D. There were seven clinical trials showing it actually helped prevent Covid-19. Those with higher vitamin D levels, they had lesser severity of illness. All the data were positive, no safety concerns. He gets nailed by the Federal Trade Commission, and it just keeps going and going. So something happened, and it was even worse for our colleagues overseas.

**[0:09:29] Joe Rogan:** What? What do you think was? Wha, how did it get uniformly adopted across the entire world? Like, what was done to get all these different countries to put all these different rules in line?

**[0:09:47] Peter McCullough:** All at once, you know, in my first book, uh, I ha, I had to sit down and write a book. This what happened was so mind-blowing, and you're actually in the book. Uh, 2 of them.

**[0:09:59] Joe Rogan:** I'm in the book.

**[0:09:59] Peter McCullough:** Yeah, the 1st one is Courage to Face Covid Nineteen. And the title We come up with this term called the biopharmaceutical complex. And what do we mean by that? Somehow, in the world, there was a formation of very powerful entities, and we believe at the core is the World Uh, Health Organization, the World Economic Forum, the Gates Foundation, the Rockefeller Tru-Trust, the Uh, Wellcome Trust, Gavi, CEPI, Unitaid, all regulatory agencies. So you have the MHRA, the E EMA, Safra, TGA, FDA, CDC, NIH.

**[0:10:40] Peter McCullough:** They just became aligned, and this was building over time. You know, these meetings that happen, uh, a lot of these players are on the world stage. And when the WHO put out a UM white paper in 2019, it was called A World at Risk, and it had a diagram. These are all the pandemics that could happen. Sure enough, SARS-CoV-2 was one of them, or the a SARS pandemic. One of the 4 principal players at the World at Risk.

**[0:11:13] Peter McCullough:** Anthony Fauci, shocker. Jeremy Farrar, who was at the Wellcome Trust, who's now the lead scientist at the WHO. And I give credit to investigative author Lisa Martin in Toronto, who investigated this. So listen, the world doesn't agree on on anything, can't agree on currency, can't agree on policy, can't agree on anything. How can they completely agree on this pandemic response? She believes that the communication centers, the WHO. You have, uh, about 190 countries, uh, you have 140 national focal points, which are branches of the WHO.

**[0:11:55] Peter McCullough:** Ours is in Washington. It's called Paho, Pan American Health Organization, and she believed all the commands really came out of the WHO through this, this complex. And, you know, it's interesting. People think, well, the pharmaceutical companies drove it. Our belief is the pharmaceutical companies are just the suppliers. And the people who benefited was anybody in position for a pandemic. So it wasn't just vaccine companies, but how about companies that made testing, or that made gowns and hazmat suits and rubber gloves, and the companies that did home delivery.

**[0:12:30] Peter McCullough:** And you keep going on and on and on. So if you were positioned well, one could financially have an unbelievable heyday with pandemics. And one of the groups here is CEPI, the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovation, it was founded by Gates Foundation, a World Economic Forum, and a few companies. They, uh, poured money in 2017. In their business plan, it says there will be a series of pandemics, a series of them. Oh, just one after another, like, like a storm's coming in, and in each pandemic, there will be w a single response mass vaccination.

**[0:13:07] Peter McCullough:** So everything is oriented towards, uh, tamping down anything else outside of vaccination.

**[0:13:15] Joe Rogan:** Does vaccination in other countries have the same protection from liability that they have in the United States?

**[0:13:22] Peter McCullough:** I don't know, I don't know, I know

**[0:13:25] Joe Rogan:** That's a problem.

**[0:13:27] Peter McCullough:** well. In 1986, uh, that's when it was memorialized as the the liability protection. And it, it, you, you know it, it became what product can essentially be mandated for an entire population and be free of liability.

**[0:13:43] Joe Rogan:** right. And then how can you take a product that's not a vaccine and call it a vaccine, which is essentially a gene therapy? I mean, this is not, it's not a technical vaccine in terms of, like, how we have defined vaccines in the past.

**[0:13:57] Peter McCullough:** The connections here are extraordinary. So let's take Moderna as an example. So, Stefan Bancel, have you had him on your show? You should invite him.

**[0:14:10] Joe Rogan:** I didn't even know he existed. Who is he?

**[0:14:12] Peter McCullough:** He's the CEO of Moderna. He's

**[0:14:15] Joe Rogan:** What?

**[0:14:15] Peter McCullough:** a he's a good looking guy from Europe who's got a really intriguing accent. You know, he He's the CEO could.

**[0:14:21] Joe Rogan:** of Moderna. Does he have horns?

**[0:14:23] Peter McCullough:** He's. He.

**[0:14:23] Joe Rogan:** Does he have horns?

**[0:14:23] Peter McCullough:** Yeah, well, listen to this. He's a pharmaceutical representative, and he becomes a dist, comes a distribution supervisor for one of the bigger companies, and he's in Belgium. In 2007, he gets uh, uh, he he gets gets a master's degree. He's well trained in the United States and Europe. As a business executive, he gets the job as CEO of Biomerieux. Biomerieux is a big lab company. They're like Abbott Diagnostics or Roche, they're a big company 2007. So he's the CEO of a lab company in France.

**[0:14:58] Peter McCullough:** Well, guess what? That lab company in France? Guess what? One of their contracts is one of their contracts is to help the Chinese build the biosecurity annex in Wuhan, China, at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Okay, this is beyond belief. So, and they train the Chinese staff, so Banzel is overseeing the company that's doing all this. Then, in 2011, he leaves Biomerieux as a young CEO. He's already done very, very well. He joins a tiny company in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Moderna, Moderna.

**[0:15:37] Peter McCullough:** And he's on record telling his wife, Listen, there's probably less than 5% chance this will ever be successful. Well, within a few years, they've got contracts to work on messenger RNA vaccines for different viruses. This keeps going and going. 2016, he's got a patent on part of the Covid virus. By 2019, he's communicating with Ralph Baric at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, saying, Listen, c, can we actually use your viruses and and challenge our vaccines?

**[0:16:11] Peter McCullough:** This is before the pandemic. Now we learned the NIH and Moderna, they co-own the patent to Moderna's vaccine. Trump announces that we have a national emergency. Five days later, Banzel says, Well, we have a vaccine for that. This was all happening, nobody was watching.

**[0:16:32] Joe Rogan:** Do you have any suspicions that it was leaked on purpose?

**[0:16:36] Peter McCullough:** I think it came out by accident.

**[0:16:39] Joe Rogan:** So you think they were working on it, someone got sick, and it just got out. Just bad safety protocols.

**[0:16:47] Peter McCullough:** there are papers now written on this, and we featured it on our, uh, substack focal points. Nikulshar has, uh, of these bio labs, there's leaks all the time. You can barely contain these things. They're very contagious, they're working with very contagious virus, bacteria, fungi, spores, d different pathogens. They depend on meticulous ventilation, sterilization. You s you see these pictures of people wearing these moon suits Yeah, we actually and everything.

**[0:17:14] Joe Rogan:** went to the one in Galveston. My friend Duncan and I, we were filming the Um, Joe Rogan questions everything. It was a sci-fi show that was on in the like 2012 or something. We went down there because we were, we were. We did an episode on biowarfare. We talked to a guy from the former Soviet Union that talked about the biowarfare program that Russia had. It was spooky, it was spooky being in that Galveston lab and these people walking around with these moon suits on, with, you know, the vacuum hoses attached to them.

**[0:17:45] Joe Rogan:** It was very weird. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Hook up a better speaker to your TV, and your home theater experience is immediately ten times better. Or add a little extra treat to your dog's food. They get so happy at dinner time. Sometimes it's worth it to go that extra step to find people who will do that for your business. Check out ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter has what you need to find great candidates fast, like powerful matching technology to help sort through thousands of resumes.

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**[0:18:51] Peter McCullough:** well, listen, if if people started getting really sick on Galveston Island, that'd be the 1st place that I would look. I wouldn't What about be, I wouldn't the wet lab go to a fish lab,

**[0:19:00] Joe Rogan:** wet market?

**[0:19:00] Peter McCullough:** I wouldn't go to a wet market, I wouldn't go down the street to a restaurant, I'd go right to that lab.

**[0:19:05] Joe Rogan:** That sounds racist. What you just said?

**[0:19:07] Peter McCullough:** W Joe, I gotta tell you what Peter Dasik, who was leading the EcoHealth Alliance, who was helping Baric coordinate with the Chinese, this is astounding. He's involved in this. You have Anthony Fauci leading the NIAID and this the funding organization that's funding this research. Baric is the mastermind at Chapel Hill. He knows more about coronaviruses than anybody. They get a lot of contracts, uh, to work on coronaviruses, they take the research to Wuhan. Peter Dasic is the go-between.

**[0:19:42] Peter McCullough:** He's getting the these grants to actually help coordinate, uh, what's going on in Wuhan. So when this thing gets out of the lab, this is astounding. And the World Health Organization says, we want to investigate the origins of the virus, we're gonna send a team to Wuhan. They contact Brett Girard, a rare admiral, he went to medical school with me in Dallas, and Brett Girard was on Trump's White House task force. One. Brett Gerard says, Great, I'll get thr 3 American scientists, we'll, we'll dispatch to Wuhan, we'll investigate.

**[0:20:12] Peter McCullough:** The WHO says, Uh, no, no, don't send us these independent people, we'll take Peter Dasic. The WHO says this. So Peter Dasic goes over to Wuhan, he goes, you know, he looks around. Boy, I, I, I can't figure out where this virus came from, but I know one thing it didn't come from the lab, didn't come from any of his projects. I mean, this is ridiculous. This all happened under the watch of people. I had no idea this was Well, it was just going on.

**[0:20:43] Joe Rogan:** bizarre that more people didn't push back against it. And, you know, credit to Jon Stewart. Did you ever see that Jon Stewart segment on the Colbert where he was making fun of the fact that, like, maybe it came from the Wuhan coronavirus laboratory. lab? And they're like, No, a pangolin got in the cloaca of a

**[0:21:02] Peter McCullough:** Do you know that there were 12 papers written? It looks like Fauci commissioned the 1st one with Jeremy Farrar at the Uh, who was at the Wellcome Trust at the time, and with Peter Dasic, what have you? And the 1st paper was written by Christian Anderson from Scripps, and it was written in Nature, and it says the natural origins of SARS-CoV-2. And says, you know, by looking at this, almost certainly it came out of nature. In Fauci's emails and texts, they all knew it came out of the lab.

**[0:21:32] Peter McCullough:** That was a cover-up manuscript, and there were 12 more manuscripts published to this day that haven't been retracted, that say, well, it came out of the lab. In fact, Dasic is part of a manuscript that was published in British Medical Journal that says, How dare anyone say it comes out of the lab? We stand with the Chinese, who are suffering from this right now, and the National Academy of Sciences and Engineering stands with the Chinese. It's amazing.

**[0:22:00] Peter McCullough:** This cover-up was so big and so, y, you know, ironclad. These guys weren't gonna give an inch

**[0:22:08] Joe Rogan:** Well, it's just amazing how coordinated it was with all these different countries, and so many countries instituted these draconian measures. Australia was incredible, New Zealand was incredible. It was bizarre to watch everyone in lockstep. It was really weird,

**[0:22:24] Peter McCullough:** and and things that could not have made sense. You know, in Australia, they had got to 1 point, there was a five kilometer rule, like where you couldn't go more than 5 kilometers from your house. Like, as if the virus, uh, obeyed those boundaries. Or do you remember all the ridiculous things? One one time, Lo Laura Ingram asked me to come on Fox. And, you know, I was always, you know, busy with patients and, you know, having to get over to the studio and have you.

**[0:22:50] Peter McCullough:** And and I never know what they're gonna show me. So it shows me this, this teenage girl, this sunny day, and she's somewhere in the Midwest, and she's running a thousand-meter race, and she's winning. But they're making all the kids wear masks, and she's trying to, you know, get enough. What's called minute ventilation, that's the amount of air you can move at the maximum of exercise through this mask. And she can't do it, and she collapses on the track, she destroys her shoulder.

**[0:23:15] Peter McCullough:** They have her parents on, they're upset. And Laura Ingram asked me, Dr. McCullough, is this reasonable? Is it reasonable to wear masks outside? I said, No, this has been studied. You c you, the virus, it diffuses into the air, you don't, you can't contract it outside. In fact, people in Singapore tried to study this. So so people wearing masks outside, there was one, people started wearing masks when they were in Olympic swimming pool swimming. The mask is all, uh, so the masks insane.

**[0:23:42] Peter McCullough:** seem to come to symbolize a madness. Still, if you travel today, you'll still see people wearing masks.

**[0:23:48] Joe Rogan:** You'll see them in Austin. If you go to San Francisco, they're ubiquitous, they're all over the. It's, uh, well, I say, it's like the Democrats MAGA hat, it's, it's. It symbolizes that you are an avowed leftist, that you are on board with all these different things. Do you know the story about the lesbian bar in Massachusetts? You don't? Okay, this is a great story. There was a lesbian bar in Massachusetts in 2026. Recently, they're going under.

**[0:24:19] Joe Rogan:** Alright, they tried to be communist, and they tried to have no cover charge for people that couldn't afford it, and so, of course, everyone said they couldn't afford it. They tried to do this, this thing where you just pay what you can. You know, they were trying to be like communists. Didn't work. And so they talked to a financial advisor, and one of the things that they had was a mask policy. They had a strict mask policy for this bar.

**[0:24:41] Joe Rogan:** And they said, why don't you have one night a week, like Saturday night, where it's mask optional? And so they instituted this. And so the people that supported the bar, that were regulars of the bar, revolted, went crazy, threatened to firebomb the bar, threatened violence. It w became a national news story, it became s it. It's so emblematic of, like, how insane some people got and continued to be. That it became a destination where people wanted to go visit just to see how fucking kooky it was, Oh my so it became a tourist god, destination.

**[0:25:18] Joe Rogan:** I think it's called the last ditch. Is that the name of the place?

**[0:25:20] Speaker 4:** Yeah, it's now closed because they're trying to find new owners. oh, I, you

**[0:25:22] Joe Rogan:** Oh, crazy.

**[0:25:23] Peter McCullough:** know, it's madness.

**[0:25:23] Joe Rogan:** He's so sad. It went under. Massachusetts lesbian bar makes frantic effort to find new owners after relaxing masking policy in 2026. Now we knew in 2020 that masks didn't work. In fact, there was one doctor we played it on the podcast and we got in trouble for this, where there was one doctor who w was explaining how, uh, vape, like a nic nicotine vape. That the particles in the vapor are larger than Covid particles, than the Covid virus and and oxygen, and so, which is why you can actually breathe through the fucking mask, right?

**[0:25:59] Joe Rogan:** Duh. And so this guy puts on these masks and he takes a hit of the vape and then blows it through the mask, and he shows you. It's like, these don't work. And, you know, we were, like, heavily criticized for showing that video where people go like, you're showing again misinformation. And then the other term that I really loved that they wheeled out, which was malinformation. Do Well, you know

**[0:26:21] Peter McCullough:** there you go. So now we got 2 out of the 6

**[0:26:23] Joe Rogan:** do you know what malinformation is?

**[0:26:24] Peter McCullough:** now. Information is information that would actually harm someone else, right? So

**[0:26:28] Joe Rogan:** It's no, it's factual information that turns out to possibly cause harm. okay, factual information Factual causing right, and telling the truth.

**[0:26:37] Peter McCullough:** there's, and there's disinformation, which is, uh, somewhere of, like, n not factual, but gonna cause harm. So you have m misinformation, disinformation, malformation. There's 2, there's 3 more, um, uh, anti-science. Oh, you've had Peter Hotez on, he's made a whole lecture tour on that. You know, he, he went to my alma mater here at Baylor, and he and he said, Listen, this is the rise of anti-science. Now now, listen, he holds science, so if you don't, if you're, if you don't agree with him, you must be anti-science.

**[0:27:09] Peter McCullough:** Again, that's that moral well, you remember Fauci superiority. actually saying that. Do That you remember that that he was science, statement? Yes, right? So so he embodied if you disagree science.

**[0:27:17] Joe Rogan:** with Anthony Fauci, you disagree with science.

**[0:27:19] Peter McCullough:** Oh, yes, so so so that's number 4, number 5, uh, is, uh, anti-vaxxer. That's a so. That's like saying, well, you know, I'm anti-hypertensive medication, or I'm anti lipid lowering medicine, or I'm anti penicillin. You're

**[0:27:35] Joe Rogan:** Or anti-aspirin.

**[0:27:35] Peter McCullough:** not, yeah, exactly, you know, th- this is like, ridiculous anti-vaxxer, so you're an anti-vaxxer. And then the last one is conspiracy theorist,

**[0:27:44] Joe Rogan:** Well, that one's a good one. That one's been around for a long time, right? So that's that's a solid an int. That's one.

**[0:27:48] Peter McCullough:** an intelligence community. Eh? So I was I was part of a video. So this gal in, um, Australia, who was a dissident, she was a dissident voice. Oh, she was locked up, actually, a at one point in time.

**[0:27:59] Joe Rogan:** she was jailed.

**[0:28:01] Peter McCullough:** Yeah, she put in jail. She, um, she made a video, and I'm in it. And they say, Oh, this guy is, uh, is, is spreading misinformation. She said, No, they're not, he's actually w. We're not. He's not a conspiracy theorist, he's a rational theorist, that we're all rational theorists. We're presented with something that's brand new, that no one can possibly know really what's going on. And so we all construct rational theories that are discussable, they're testable.

**[0:28:34] Peter McCullough:** So e when people immediately this is a brand new virus, and people immediately grasped for something. And this is, I think, a theme of what we learned in the pandemic is human beings have a terrible time with ambiguity, ambiguity. Oh, no, it's a cri. Listen, if it's a war, if it's a virus, uh, there must be no ambiguity. We have to know everything right now. And so I I saw this in the prosecution of all these doctors.

**[0:29:02] Peter McCullough:** Well, they're outside the mainstream consensus, it's a brand new problem. Consensus of what?

**[0:29:09] Joe Rogan:** right. Well, especially with science. The idea that science exists with consensus is nuts. Like, the whole idea is that you're supposed to be testing these things, and it it requires people questioning.

**[0:29:22] Peter McCullough:** Well, e especially in the what's called the inferential area of of reasoning. This is very important. So deductive reasoning, let's take that deduction is the hard physical sciences, mathematics, physics, engineering. So, you know, there's laws, and if the laws are true, the roof will stay up above us. If the laws, uh, of physics work, the plane will take off today. And what have you? Those that's deduction, so deduction. There must be some truth to gravity, there must be some truth to, um, velocity, what have you?

**[0:29:56] Peter McCullough:** Because these these equations work and we rely on them. In clinical medicine, it's very different. It's inference, meaning we never really know the truth, we never do. The human body is is enormously complex. We can't ever really know, but we use inference and inference. We try to inch closer and closer and closer to the truth, but we never know. And so because the clinical sciences are like that, we always have to question what people are saying.

**[0:30:28] Peter McCullough:** Well, there's always a debate. How many times have you opened up the paper? It says, Well, chocolate's good for you. Oh, here's another one. Chocolate's bad for you. Chocolate's good for you. It it goes back and forth, it goes back and forth. Coffee is good for you, coffee, you know, it just keeps going, it, it goes back and forth as we approximate the truth. And so this idea that there's a brand new virus, it comes out of China, and instantaneously, there's a consensus.

**[0:30:54] Peter McCullough:** And if you're outside the consensus, you are spreading misinformation. There's a policy erected, you're violating the policy, now you're being prosecuted. People found their entire professional lives destroyed over this,

**[0:31:08] Joe Rogan:** Well, Dr. Robert Malone had a great phrase that I think he got from someone else called mass formation psychosis. And that this thing happens, everyone's terrified, and then they offer one solution, and this one solution must be adhered to by everyone. And there, again, can be no ambiguity.

**[0:31:26] Peter McCullough:** right? So that credit to Matthias Desmet, he's a, Is that the guy's yeah, he's,

**[0:31:30] Joe Rogan:** name?

**[0:31:30] Peter McCullough:** he's, he's a b uh, uh, a Belgium, uh, uh, psychologist, and he's investigated this. And, uh, in fact, there's this mass formation and people feel like they they actually, uh, uh, you know, become divided over something like that. So the vaccine, for sure. I, I, eh, have you lost any friends over this vaccine

**[0:31:52] Joe Rogan:** not real friends.

**[0:31:52] Peter McCullough:** issue?

**[0:31:54] Joe Rogan:** Yeah, not, you know, no one that I miss.

**[0:31:57] Peter McCullough:** But ma many have. Many of the listeners listening to this show will say, you know what? After the pandemic, somehow things are reordered in my life, that well, my friends or family,

**[0:32:06] Joe Rogan:** I think it's a good thing. I mean, I think those are the people that you really didn't want as friends in the first place.

**[0:32:12] Peter McCullough:** you know, my field in medicine, we can talk about anything. So if I, uh, if I, uh, you know, and doctors love to talk shop, that's all we do, basically, cause it's so interesting. So we we'll be at some social gathering and be talking about back surgery, or talking about a d new v medical advance. We come up to vaccines. I can't talk about it. right. Why is We get the that Heisman. We think what's going on, um, is that we have this in my 2nd book.

**[0:32:42] Peter McCullough:** It's become an ideology. It's not, it's not scientific.

**[0:32:47] Joe Rogan:** right? I had Aaron Siri on, A. And you know, in he's on the vaccines we trust, right, he's on the he's on the right track, right path. he's on the It's cause it's right track. It's become religion. a religion. And Yeah,

**[0:32:54] Peter McCullough:** it turns out in our book, we went all the way back 3 centuries to figure out where this came from, where did this come from? How can this become religion? There's not a religion around antibiotics, or religion about surgeries, or religion religion about radiology. W Why is there a religion around vaccines? Well, it turns out there's. Mankind has always had a susceptibility to contagious infectious diseases, probably more so, by the way, than other mammals. You know, you don't see groups of dogs getting colds and blowing snot, or squirrels out there, or whatever.

**[0:33:30] Peter McCullough:** For some reason, we're vulnerable, so mankind has been vulnerable to infectious diseases, and so there's always been a fear. We didn't understand them, but when infectious diseases blew in, oh my lord, like when the bubonic plague blew in, you know, thousand years ago, watch out. There's all kinds of bad things that happen, and and and you see all different types of human behavior when there's fear like this, and you don't understand it. And so when this idea that maybe we can do something to prevent these horrible contagious diseases, uh, and and we had to start somewhere in our book.

**[0:34:09] Peter McCullough:** John Lee, who's the 1st author, he's from, Uh, Highland Park, Texas. A great probably John's probably one of the world's greatest historians. Uh, we looked around to see where did this idea of giving a vaccine come from? Inoculation? We had to start somewhere, and we started with Cotton Mather in 1721 in Boston. Do you have any idea who he was? So Cotton Mather in the late 17th century turns out he was one of the advisors to the judges in the Salem witchcraft trials.

**[0:34:40] Peter McCullough:** So Cotton Mather, he's a Puritan minister, but he clearly believed in witches, so Cotton Mather. This is horrible, and we start out in our 1st chapter in the book on this. Cotton Mather watches his wife and several kids die of what's probably measles, and he can't save them. He just he just watches them die. And he's like, Oh, my Lord, he's keeping his memoirs about all this. And then he hears a story that a ship is coming, and the men on the ship have smallpox, and, uh, smallpox, very different rash than measles.

**[0:35:14] Peter McCullough:** And, uh, so he takes up with Dr. Boylston in Boston with a new project, and Boylston has this idea of called variolation. Variolation is taking a little, you know, little pustule, the little blister that you have with smallpox, taking a a, a blade, a scalpel blade, opening that little blister, taking a little bit of the the fluid, and then stabbing it into the next person. And the idea is, well, just give a little bit of that fluid.

**[0:35:41] Peter McCullough:** Th. They thought it was actually a poison. They didn't think it was in. A. A. A. A. They couldn't conceptualize of an infectious disease. It was thought to be some type of poison. But the idea is, we'll give you a little poison, and maybe if you can survive that, you'll survive a big amount of it. And they start up with variolation, and it turns out Ben Franklin at the time, who's one of the bigger intellectuals, uh, he's, kinda, ma, he's kind of ridiculing them.

**[0:36:07] Peter McCullough:** Said, Listen, these guys, these guys a are nuts. This isn't, you know, they're wasting people's time and and and proclaiming all these, uh, things. And then, sure enough, Ben Franklin loses little Frankie. Frankie dies of smallpox. Ben Franklin turns around, follow Cotton Mather, he's on the right track. Cotton Mather, at one point in time, declares in the public square. This process that we've come up with is a gift from God. That's how vaccination started. It was conceptualized as a gift from God to mankind, and then it just keeps going and going and going.

**[0:36:44] Peter McCullough:** And the bold claims, the bold claims. You, you think you think Fauci had some Hutzpah? Louis Pasteur, Holy smokes, that guy made more claims. Well, I've got a vaccine for fowl cholera, I've got an anthrax vaccine. They'll say, Well, great, uh, where's your notes? Does it work? I'll get back to you later on that. And this, this just keeps going and going. So all this hubris, all this fear, money. There's always been a ton of money at this.

**[0:37:14] Peter McCullough:** Edward Jenner Jenner picks up after C. Cotton Mather's in the UK. He's at the right hand of the king and queen. So these vaccinologists have money, power. The population is at fear. They're providing a solution that, in a sense, man is outdoing God. Man, through vaccinology, is improving God's creation. This is the ultimate hubris. Man outdoes God, and that's how these vaccinologists present themselves. Remember, Fauci, Fauci says, I am science. So that brings us to the coin on the front of the cover.

**[0:37:55] Peter McCullough:** This is 2022. This is a 20 euro coin issued by the Vatican. It's a boy in the classic tripartite positioning about to receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ. But instead, he's receiving a vaccine, so the vaccine

**[0:38:15] Joe Rogan:** This was issued by the Vatican,

**[0:38:17] Peter McCullough:** this was issued by the Vatican.

**[0:38:18] Joe Rogan:** a coin of someone getting vaccinated.

**[0:38:20] Peter McCullough:** Yes, this shows you this iconography, I think, is confirmatory that what we're seeing is with vaccinology, there is a religious zeal. There's a madness here, and it's gone on for 3 centuries, and boy, it got turned on big time in the pandemic.

**[0:38:40] Joe Rogan:** That same terminology, that a gift from God, that same terminology was used by Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York, talking about the vaccines. Really, Yeah, it was a quote by her. She said, These vaccines are a gift from God. Same terminology, yeah. Was there any, um, efficacy to those, uh, original smallpox vaccines, where they would take the pustule and they would give it to people? Did that work at all?

**[0:39:07] Peter McCullough:** we can't possibly know it. It it, uh, took off before you know it, it became mandatory in a lot of places. Again, people were put in jail if they didn't take these shots in certain, uh, places around the world. Boston, Toronto, UK. It got to such a madness and controversy that in the UK, there was a city Leicester in the UK. They said, we're not doing this, we're not taking these vaccines. This is nuts. We can't.

**[0:39:33] Peter McCullough:** Y, you know, they're taking fluid from other people, they're taking fluid from horses and animals. You can't know what's in it, you can't know if it's sterilized. There were examples of people taking the poke and then dying because maybe it was contaminated with tetanus or staph or syphilis. And in Leicester, they said, we're not doing it, we're gonna do the Lister method. We we think how this is happening is the kids are sleeping on top of each other in s in straw beds covered in these pustules.

**[0:39:59] Peter McCullough:** When the kids get smallpox, we're gonna separate em, we're gonna separate em and see if we can't stop it from spreading around. And they were right, so the Lister method basically got control of smallpox with no vaccines. It's very important.

**[0:40:13] Joe Rogan:** What percentage of people did smallpox that w that got infected died?

**[0:40:17] Peter McCullough:** I don't know, but it was high, it was high because, y, y, you know, the once you got covered in these pustules, it didn't take much for it to be superinfected with staph. And then once the staph took off, remember, back in the olden days, there was a term called erysipelas, that was just a bad skin staph infection that would be fatal. And all of these infectious diseases, this is really important. You've had Suzanne Humphreys on, you've had, uh, Aaron Siri.

**[0:40:43] Peter McCullough:** All of these infectious diseases came under control before widespread vaccination. This is very important through better, uh, nutrition, sanitation was big, and personal hygiene, that this was very big. So we don't have erysipelas outbreaks. There's no vaccine for that. That's just like a staph. You know, um, streptococcal. My family was greatly affected. I'm Irish, greatly affected by streptococcal, uh, through the Irish, as they immigrated to the United States. Uh, my great grandmother died of Bright's disease at age 32.

**[0:41:16] Peter McCullough:** That's post-streptococcal, uh, kidney failure. My grandfather, who I never met, he died of, uh, rheumatic heart disease. Again, streptococcal. I never see patients dying of streptococcal disease now, ever, uh, pharyngitis, glomerulonephritis, uh, carditis, never, because we have antibiotics and we have appropriate testing. No vaccine. This is very important. Uh, decades ago, we had tuberculosis sanatoriums in the United States. There's no effective vaccine for TB. So if you go to the 63 schools of public health in the United States and you read through their, um, you know, their mission statements, they'll tell you that vaccination was one of the greatest public health achievements in the history of mankind.

**[0:42:03] Peter McCullough:** They almost never mention sanitation or improved hygiene or testing.

**[0:42:08] Joe Rogan:** So you think those are the primary factors? And what about nutrition? Nutrition's big a big factor, particularly big, when you're dealing with cities in the winter, where they don't have access to fresh vegetables

**[0:42:20] Peter McCullough:** for sure.

**[0:42:20] Joe Rogan:** and they don't, they're very poorly fed. I mean, They're, yeah,

**[0:42:24] Peter McCullough:** a great example is, uh, measles fatalities, uh, I mean, it's tightly linked to vitamin A deficiency. In fact, vitamin A is so critical that there's a vitamin A protocol. So there was a prospective, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of giving vitamin A to critical kids with measles, pneumonitis in the New England Journal of Medicine, and it reduced mortality. That's just an example of a nutritional intervention that reduced mortality. So in the modern day, I've said, you know, there's a great hullabaloo about measles right now.

**[0:42:58] Peter McCullough:** I've said in the modern day, we shouldn't lose anybody due to measles. No one, because we have, we have modern nutrition, sanitation, hygiene. We can handle complications. So the measles, encephalitis and pneumonitis are very responsive to steroids. Uh, the bronchitis, pneumonia, it's all bacterial. We handle that with antibiotics.

**[0:43:19] Joe Rogan:** Aaron Siri was also discussing how it seems that prior measles infection protects you from some other things.

**[0:43:27] Peter McCullough:** You know, it may, it may, you know, PR natural infection and recovery always seems to be far more durable and and broadly applicable. And a good paper to quote is Bianchi and colleagues, where it was a perfect time. In an Italian medical school where they had half the kids had kind of natural measles immunity, because, uh, you know, they they were. They grew up before there was availability of a measles vaccine, and the other kids had measles vaccine immunity, and they tested them serologically to see if did they have any protection.

**[0:44:00] Peter McCullough:** The answer was, if you had natural measles infection, 96 protection, you could get it again, maybe, but boy, natural measles, you're good. Our CDC says today measles was so common that if you were born before 1957 in the United States, you're good. You're just we just assume you're completely immune. The kids who took the measles vaccine, that would be me, I took a measles vaccine, only 80 had any measurable protection. And I've gone through this now 4 times.

**[0:44:30] Peter McCullough:** I took a measles vaccine as a kid. When I went to medical school, checked a blood test, no protection, take another shot, became a resident a few years later, took another test, no protection, became took another shot, an MMR shot, and then a 4th one. I went through it 4 times, and I still don't have any protection. And in our book, we we, um,

**[0:44:51] Joe Rogan:** And how is that measured? Is it by

**[0:44:53] Peter McCullough:** is by antibodies.

**[0:44:53] Joe Rogan:** antibodies?

**[0:44:54] Peter McCullough:** It's a reasonable proxy, but in our book, we mentioned Ben Edwards, and Ben is here in Texas. Uh, Ben went to Baylor just after me. Dr. He's out in West Texas, taking care of the Mennonites. You remember, a a couple years ago, there was an outbreak. He's taking care of the Mennonites, and he's communicating with us. And I actually, I talked to some of the Mennonites myself. And Ben says, Listen, I took all these measles shots.

**[0:45:16] Peter McCullough:** He goes, I, I'm not sure I had any. I have any protection. And, sure enough, he sent me a picture. He's covered head to toe with measles. He's taken 4 measles vaccines. So the point is the measles vaccines, while they have dropped case count, terrific, they're not perfect, and our CDC is deceptive about measles reporting. Now, this is very important. When they, when they categorize people, they're not going out and investigating each case, they're getting feeds from state labs or even the commercial labs and other sources.

**[0:45:45] Peter McCullough:** And unless somebody really can somehow show their vaccine record and prove it to somebody, the CDC says they're unvaccinated or vaccine status unknown. It's a very dishonest way of epidemiologic reporting.

**[0:46:01] Joe Rogan:** So they say that just to downplay the the possible effects,

**[0:46:07] Peter McCullough:** FA the failure of a vaccine,

**[0:46:08] Joe Rogan:** the failure of the vaccine.

**[0:46:09] Peter McCullough:** right? It? It's intentional, and they do that as part of their reporting. And I've looked into it. Well, h how do you determine if it's unknown? They said, Well, if if somehow the vaccine card isn't m made apparent to us, uh, you know, and this is through data systems and stuff, no one's gonna be able to get a vaccine card through some data system.

**[0:46:25] Joe Rogan:** So they essentially assume someone's unvaccinated if they get measles, right? Correct One of the least scientific aspects of the Covid pandemic was if you had had Covid, they still required you to get vaccinated.

**[0:46:39] Peter McCullough:** now. That was interesting because in 2020, when they were doing the clinical trials, this is very important. So, Pf- Moderna, Pfizer, Janssen, they said, Listen, they're doing a clinical trial. Oh, no, we're not gonna take anybody who's already had Covid. We're not gonna take anybody who has any antibodies to Covid. We're not gonna take women of childbearing potential or pregnant women. No, no, no, the vaccine either. It's not gonna work, or it's not gonna be safe.

**[0:47:06] Peter McCullough:** We just want virgin cases. Okay, well, they do their clinical trials. December 10th, 2020, when it rolls out, they said, Well, damn, the torpedoes, everybody takes it. So wait a minute. Just 2 months ago, you excluded people with natural immunity. Now, why do they suddenly need it? That's part of this madness about vaccines, and it goes, it goes even further. Now, it says, Listen, you can get Covid any number of times, it doesn't matter. Take more boosters, take a booster, get Covid, take another booster.

**[0:47:38] Peter McCullough:** And you know, I had patients in Dallas who were, you know, very much, uh, zealots over vaccines. They would go to the pharmacy and say, you know what, I'm feeling a little insecure. Can I get another shot? Can I just get an extra dose? Pharmacies would give them extra dose.

**[0:47:56] Joe Rogan:** do you think that they were vaccinating the people that had had prior prior infection because they wanted to get rid of the control group?

**[0:48:05] Peter McCullough:** I think there's a sense in this vaccine world, part of this vaccine ideology is, you know, man outdoes God, but the vaccines aren't perfect. It's very important, so the vaccinologists will tell you the vaccines aren't perfect. So, in order for this to work, everyone must take them, everyone, without exception, without exception, because it's for the betterment of humanity, it's for the greater good. And if some people are harmed, or somebody's already had the infection and they can't possibly benefit, we don't care, because this is for the greater good.

**[0:48:42] Peter McCullough:** A And this has gone on for centuries now.

**[0:48:44] Joe Rogan:** But that that literally makes no sense. Well, Like, one of the things we found out very early on was that prior infection was up to 7 times more effective at preventing a reinfection. So this is something I brought up to Sanjay Gupta when he came on the podcast. yeah, what He said.

**[0:48:59] Peter McCullough:** did he say?

**[0:48:59] Joe Rogan:** EBO, he said, You had Covid. Are you going to get vaccinated now? And I said, why? I said, No, why would I? You know that prior infection is far better to prevent a a. a another Covid outbreak. Like, why? And he had no answer. It didn't make any sense. He knew it didn't make any sense, but it's a religious thing, like he wanted me. I had another friend of mine who's a vaccine kook who, uh, you know, he's like, now that you've had Covid, are you gonna get vaccinated?

**[0:49:28] Joe Rogan:** I go, why would I? I go, you know that prior infection is better at preventing a re a re, uh, uh, r getting it again. I if Like, I don't understand,

**[0:49:39] Peter McCullough:** you get, if you get chicken pox, you don't go get a chicken pox vaccine, right? So

**[0:49:45] Joe Rogan:** It didn't make any sense, but it was this thing where you had to become a part of the team.

**[0:49:50] Peter McCullough:** well, that's interesting, right? It's almost as if it's almost as if there was a marking there. You know, have you have you seen on social social media where people put their their bandit? Remember Jason Kelsey? No, Travis Kelsey Travis Travis puts the blue, uh, band-aid on is part of the team.

**[0:50:10] Joe Rogan:** Well, he also got paid,

**[0:50:11] Peter McCullough:** But, you know, this is the

**[0:50:12] Joe Rogan:** he got paid.

**[0:50:12] Peter McCullough:** type of thing. But there is a symbolism of of being on a team. That you take the vaccine, you take it for the greater good. Uh, damn the torpedoes. You know, there were 3 papers that I was quoting. That showed if you previously had the infection, if you previously had the infection, you actually were harmed by taking these vaccines. There were more serious adverse events, things that landed you in the hospital because your body's immune system is already jazzed up.

**[0:50:41] Peter McCullough:** You don't need to juice it some more. So there's actually harm. That's the reason why the FDA and the company said, No, no, no, if you've pre previously had Covid, you shouldn't get this shot. And to to just change in 3 months and just throw out all of that regulatory pathway, except a good clinical practice. I think the worst example is pregnancy. That's the golden rule is we never use experimental new things on a pregnant woman, never, never, never.

**[0:51:18] Peter McCullough:** And the clinical trials, there was no way that a pregnant woman was gonna get one of these vaccines, even or even of childbearing potential. Do you know, in the 1st week of the vaccine campaign, I'll never forget December 10th, 2020, 3,000 American women who were pregnant, they were largely nurses, took the vaccine. No one at the vaccine center said, Wait a minute, uh, we shouldn't do this. And before you know this, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecology said, You know what, give it to him, give it to him at any time during pregnancy, without any rationale.

**[0:51:55] Peter McCullough:** It was complete malpractice.

**[0:51:58] Joe Rogan:** And what was the side effects of that?

**[0:52:00] Peter McCullough:** It was horrendous. Uh, great credit to Jim Thorpe. He's on the chief medical board with me at the Wellness company. Uh, uh, uh, obstetrician called this out immediately and said, Listen, this is madness. Tom Schumberger at the CDC puts out a a paper in the New England Journal of Medicine. Doing the math, it looked like the miscarriage rate in the 1st trimester could be as high as 84 of women losing their babies. Now, in reality, we can't really tell because they didn't have full 9 months of data.

**[0:52:33] Peter McCullough:** Uh, a standard number is to lose a baby in the 1st trimester is 15 miscarriage rate. Finally, after all of this back and forth, and letters to the editor, showing New England Journal Medicine, Schumberger, and the CDC said, Listen, uh, we really can't tell you the real number, but whatever it is, it isn't good. We saw rates of miscarriage in this now. Thorp and others have published extensively on this. Rates of miscarriage went up, rates of stillbirth, which is losing the baby in the 2nd trimester.

**[0:53:01] Peter McCullough:** That should be less than 1. That happened to somebody in my church. This is horrible. The baby was fine, they take a shot, and all of a sudden the baby's not moving. That's it. Then the baby has to be extracted, and then in the 3rd trimester, what can happen is, uh, there can be premature delivery. Now the baby is premature, can have, uh, you know, preemie neonatal ICU, all the complications of intracranial hemorrhage, premature, uh, lung disease, etc.

**[0:53:28] Peter McCullough:** It's a disaster to do something like this during pregnancy, and the R rationale is these vaccines are very strong, they cause a very high fever, and you cause a fever, that inflammation and and react it reaction, the uterus and the baby don't like it. And, you know, fever is one of the single greatest triggers to lose the baby or have a premature delivery.

**[0:53:55] Joe Rogan:** And the vaccine gives you fevers, For sure, boy. And they weren't operating on any data when they were recommending it to pregnant women and administering it to pregnant women. none. But yet they were saying it's safe and effective for pregnant women, and they were encouraging pregnant women to take it. Because they said that the risk of getting Covid was far greater than the potential harm of getting vaccinated while pregnant.

**[0:54:23] Peter McCullough:** There was a paper by Panellis and colleagues in also internal medicine. It looked at that. What happened if pregnant women, contracted COVID? Turns out, because they're young and healthy and robust, and pregnancies and and immune, uh, you know, s one of the strongest states of natural immunity, pregnant women did better than non-pregnant women.

**[0:54:46] Joe Rogan:** But what about fever?

**[0:54:48] Peter McCullough:** They honestly.

**[0:54:49] Joe Rogan:** Pregnant women getting fever while they had COVID.

**[0:54:51] Peter McCullough:** They could. Again, that's a risk for that's a fair point, so COVID itself, uh, could be a risk factor for miscarriage, just like influenza or any other fever, it had to be managed. Turns out, hydroxychloroquine was perfectly safe during pregnancy. We there's actually been randomized trials of using that in, uh, lupus. I've used hydroxychloroquine pregnant women. IVermectin turned out to be safe. We had monoclonal antibodies, bam, olivimab safe during pregnancy

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**[0:56:09] Joe Rogan:** Monoclonal antibodies were very effective, but made incredibly difficult to get at one point in time. What was that about?

**[0:56:20] Peter McCullough:** There's a paper in Medical Economics 2020 said Operation Warp Speed's going to deliver monoclonal antibodies. The U. S. invested in doses for every single one of us. Every single one of us. These monoclonal antibodies, I used them hundreds of times, Joe. They were safe, they were effective, they were miraculous, they really worked. They should have been in every single nursing home, they should have been in every ER, every urgent care. Anybody really sick should have gotten a monoclonal antibody.

**[0:56:51] Peter McCullough:** Do you know of all the patients admitted to the hospital with COVID, only 15% of them got monoclonal antibodies?

**[0:56:58] Joe Rogan:** Well, there was a there was actually a policy at some hospitals where once you were admitted to the hospital, they would no longer give you monoclonal antibodies.

**[0:57:06] Peter McCullough:** Right, and it happened. I was advising on 2 patients here in, uh, Texas, just south of Dallas. Husband and wife, he's a pastor, his dad's a pastor, I know him well. Um, the husband and wife get really sick with COVID. They come to the emergency room. They give her monoclonal antibodies and say, you know, you're well enough, you go home, take care of your 5 kids. They look at him, he's a little heavier guy. They said, Oh, you're too sick.

**[0:57:30] Peter McCullough:** We're admitting you. They don't give him monoclonal antibodies, and he dies. It can't be any But what more clear.

**[0:57:36] Joe Rogan:** would be the reasoning to not give him monoclonal antibodies while he's sick?

**[0:57:41] Peter McCullough:** That that that reasoning was, well, it that wasn't the way it was tested in clinical trials, it was only tested in outpatients. What my viewpoint on this is that this is where clinical judgment comes in. And if I was running the show at the top, I would have made sure everyone got these monoclonal antibodies. And when my patients were anywhere close to the ER, I made sure that they got these monoclonal antibodies. I held them up in the ER.

**[0:58:07] Peter McCullough:** I said, Listen, you're not going into the hospital until you get monoclonal antibodies. But it took that type of forceful clinical approach to make that happen. And the fact that people were denied monoclonal antibodies, which are emergency use authorized, fully FDA endorsed, expensive, operation Warp Speed, that tells you something. That tells you something about what this pandemic was really about.

**[0:58:33] Joe Rogan:** Well, the what had I had heard was they wanted to they wanted to limit the use of monoclonal antibodies because they felt that it contributed to vaccine hesitancy. And so one of the things that happened during the pandemic was when I had gone public with, uh, I made this video and said that I got, uh, what what had happened was I had some shows that I was doing with Dave Chappelle, and we had to cancel the shows, and I had to say in this video, Hey, um, I think it was it was Nashville or New Orleans.

**[0:59:07] Joe Rogan:** I had to say, Hey, we have to cancel the show this weekend. I had COVID. This was when CNN turned my face green on television. I'm sure you saw that, right? I had said all the different things that I took, and I said, I feel great, I'm fine, but we have to cancel the shows. We'll reschedule them. And that's when I started getting attacked. But what what happened was I had gotten phone calls from everyone that I knew who knew anyone who got sick.

**[0:59:32] Joe Rogan:** Um, what did you take? My aunt is sick, my uncle's sick. I sent nurses, private nurses, to I don't even know how many people I lost track of it. I just had an account and I paid for all of it. I just had sent nurses to people, people that I didn't even know, actors that I never even met in person. They reached out to me on Instagram. I called them, we talked, I sent a nurse to them.

**[0:59:54] Joe Rogan:** I paid for all of it. I don't know how much I spent. I spent a lot of money on it. I just said, I was like,

**[0:59:59] Peter McCullough:** thank you.

**[0:59:59] Joe Rogan:** Look, I'm gonna save these people's lives. And one of the things that we administered to them was monoclonal antibodies. Um, and I did it to a lot of fucking people, man, a lot of people all over the country, comics, all these different people.

**[1:00:12] Peter McCullough:** yeah. You remind me of this gal I met on social media on Instagram. Her name is Nurse Michelle. You should, uh, check her out. She's m middle-aged, got like a bunch of kids, and she's just a good lady in rural North, uh, Georgia. She saw this happening. She said, This is so horrible. I don't care about the law. I don't care about the rules. She stocked up her minivan with every drug she could possibly get a hold of from overseas, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, antibiotics, steroids.

**[1:00:42] Peter McCullough:** She reached out to me. I had published a McCullough protocol in the American Journal of Medicine. She goes, I'll follow your protocol, Dr. McCullough. She went around Georgia just treating patients. She didn't have a medical license. She just did it. She goes, I don't care. This is about saving lives. That's what people did. And I I know I met people in South Africa doing that in Southeast Asia. This going back to the analogy we used, this was a war.

**[1:01:07] Joe Rogan:** Yeah, what I was gonna get to War, was somewhere along this process, uh, we couldn't get access to monoclonal antibodies anymore. So I was sending all these nurses out to administer IV vitamins, a a bunch, a bunch of different things. And then it got really difficult to get monoclonal antibodies. And one of my friends in New York was really sick, and we had to get him monoclonal antibodies, and it was like one of the last available doses of monoclonal antibodies we could get him.

**[1:01:37] Joe Rogan:** And we got it to him, and he got better, but it was, like, really weird.

**[1:01:40] Peter McCullough:** and, you know, there were 6 of these that were FDA emergency use authorized, and then 1 after another, they were taken off the market.

**[1:01:48] Joe Rogan:** And this is all about vaccine hesitancy.

**[1:01:50] Peter McCullough:** Well, they were taken off the market saying, Well, the the virus mutated, these probably won't work. Well, wait a minute. If the virus mutated and these probably won't work, then why are we still continuing with vaccines?

**[1:02:00] Joe Rogan:** The exact vaccine that was for the wild virus.

**[1:02:02] Peter McCullough:** S So here's the point. This whole pandemic, my analysis is this was about mass vaccination, treatment. And if you go through the warm-up exercises, so the SPARS pandemic, that was Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in 2017, where the hypothesis is the virus is gonna come out of, um, uh, Brazil, and, uh, again, there'll be controversy over treatment, but we're gonna railroad vaccines. And then Event 201, which is October of 2019, New York City, again, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

**[1:02:37] Peter McCullough:** There, the Chinese CDC is there, George Gao. He's paired up with Avril Haynes, who becomes our director of National Intelligence. Now, the virus, again, it's a coronavirus, but this time it's coming out of Southeast Asia, maybe the Philippines. Same story. We're gonna have confusion over treatment, but the real answer is to railroad mass vaccination. So we're back to this biopharmaceutical complex. The vision of SEPI, which is one of the key players that said, Listen, no treatment, no treatment.

**[1:03:08] Peter McCullough:** Assume the virus is unassailable. Even if you find something that works, don't use it. Let's feature vaccines.

**[1:03:17] Joe Rogan:** And this probably has something to do with profit and also the fact that they're immune to liability.

**[1:03:26] Peter McCullough:** It could be, uh, it could be just this this religion, uh, with vaccines, which goes back a long way, and it's a head scratcher. Cause, believe me, these monoclonal antibodies, there was Lilly, Sanofi, there was a lot of money. There's thousands of dollars per dose. This was big money. In many ways, per unit, it was way bigger money than the vaccines, and they really worked. But there was something about the narrative, and what I call the false narrative, the false narrative was this virus is unassailable.

**[1:03:59] Peter McCullough:** Don't you dare try to treat it. And turns out, Operation Warp Speed gave a pretty, pretty good answer, which was the monoclonal antibodies. And, you know, for the first 2 years, in terms of at home, the only oral drugs we had the first year, we used hydroxychloroquine plus the other generics, second year ivermectin. The third year, that's when, um, Paxlovid comes in, Paxlovid, which is a combination drug by Pfizer. And it's not, it's not great, but it's not bad.

**[1:04:27] Peter McCullough:** And, you know, the large randomized trials, there was a reduction in hospitalization and death. And I had patients use it. It's a little slow to work, and there's some rebound and drug interactions. But even then, our government didn't feature this. This is, again, this is so curious. Is we've got this. Why is it not featured? Why is it still vaccine, vaccine, And then also, vaccine?

**[1:04:51] Joe Rogan:** why did they feature things that turned out to be very detrimental, like remdesivir? Didn't you know nurses what they used to call it? Run death is near.

**[1:05:02] Peter McCullough:** the WHO, November of 2020, comes out with a statement with the European Society of Critical Care. They look at this. They say, Listen, don't use remdesivir. It doesn't work, and it has toxicities. This is the WHO, backed by a very solid physician group. They put this out there. You know, a year and a half later, in Lancet, they revisit their original recommendations. Now they've got the WHO solidarity, they have all the trials, and they say, Listen, we were right.

**[1:05:32] Peter McCullough:** Remdesivir still doesn't work. It's got kidney and liver toxicities. It should never have been used. What happens in the United States? We frontline remdesivir against How how did the WHO.

**[1:05:43] Joe Rogan:** that happen? How did that happen, I have and why?

**[1:05:45] Peter McCullough:** absolutely no idea. And when I ask my colleagues in the hospital, they give me blank stares.

**[1:05:52] Joe Rogan:** Cause remdesivir was not formulated for COVID-19.

**[1:05:54] Peter McCullough:** No, it was a a failed Ebola drug. And the WHO is strictly saying, do not use it. It's still on their website.

**[1:06:03] Joe Rogan:** And it had that side effect, the particular side effect, one of them was kidney failure that didn't exist with COVID-19 infection.

**[1:06:10] Peter McCullough:** No, there was a risk of acute kidney injury with, uh, severe illness, but this was additional toxicity. And, uh, you know, I had several patients get it, so I I had, uh, patients, you know, getting sick going in the hospital. I don't think I had a single it was it was a 5-day series. I didn't have a single patient get through 5 days because it was so toxic to the liver. We would see the liver injury numbers skyrocket.

**[1:06:32] Joe Rogan:** So liver was the big one.

**[1:06:34] Peter McCullough:** Liver and kidney. They the liver can rebound, the kidneys can't, so some people ended up on dialysis.

**[1:06:39] Joe Rogan:** So what I had heard was there one of the red flags was the high instances of kidney failure. And that this wasn't, it didn't match up with just COVID-19 infection, that it was much more rare. Is that what it was?

**[1:06:53] Peter McCullough:** no, it it's a correct analysis, that's a correct analysis. These people were very sick. But the fact that you had health and human services go directly against the WHO, and, you know, a lot of other countries didn't even use it.

**[1:07:05] Joe Rogan:** So who recommended remdesivir?

**[1:07:07] Peter McCullough:** Well, HHS at that time was Alex Azar. That was under Trump 1.0. Then, under Biden, we had Xavier Becerra, and, uh, we had, uh, Robert Califf, who is the FDA chair. Why didn't they relook at this? Why didn't they have a meeting with the WHO? None of this can be explained.

**[1:07:31] Joe Rogan:** Yeah, the the remdesivir one was very disturbing because, um, a doctor that I talked to said, under no circumstances allow anyone that you know to take that stuff. And and I was like, Well, well, what is it? Like? I? It was very weird to have someone say that. And they said, I I don't understand why people are prescribing this for COVID-19 infection. It not only does it not seem to be effective, but it seems to be deadly, which is like, how is that possible a that that got through?

**[1:07:59] Peter McCullough:** a and listen, at that time, there was a critical study published in one of the best journals for pulmonary medicine called Chest. The first author is Raszter from Florida. It's called the I-CON study. And there was a group that got ivermectin in the ER and continued during the hospitalization, and a group who didn't. So it's a very good. It wasn't a randomized trial, but it's a very good, you know, heat of the pandemic here in Florida.

**[1:08:27] Peter McCullough:** Lots of senior citizens getting sick. Ivermectin has over a 50% reduction in mortality. Very safe. It was it had matched, case-matched, all the, you know, all the ways they can control to make the two groups basically be comparable. Ivermectin, hands-down, saved lives. And when that trial came in, I said, That's it. Every single person should not only be getting monoclonal antibodies, but if they get admitted to the hospital, they should be getting ivermectin. And before you knew it, we started seeing the emails come out, Don't give ivermectin, don't treat iverm treat anybody with ivermectin.

**[1:09:04] Peter McCullough:** And Pierre Cori, who you've had on your show, ultimately published, I think, the best named book in the entire pandemic. It was called The War on Ivermectin. Our regulatory agencies launched a war on ivermectin. Matter of fact, the AMA in 2021 came out with an official policy. This is this is a trade group for doctors, American Medical Association. It says our objective in this campaign is to abolish the use of ivermectin. Something something Abolish.

**[1:09:33] Joe Rogan:** that has a 50% effective rate of stopping hop hospitalization and death.

**[1:09:39] Peter McCullough:** And it was the most rapid-acting drug, so we saw patients. We ultimately published on this. Sabine Hazen, uh, in, uh, Malibu gets great credit. Uh, Dr. Athanasiou Skoukoula-kos down in, um, in Rio Grande, uh, was in our team. Uh, uh, Tom Barody, who's passed away from Australia. We had a great international team. We showed that ivermectin can actually recover oxygen levels in people sick at home, people with low oxygen levels. We had patients in South Africa, uh, United States.

**[1:10:09] Peter McCullough:** I had some of my patients. I had a a a couple that their oxygen saturations were so deeply low. They said, Listen, if we go to the hospital, they're gonna put us on the ventilator. We're gonna die. We're not gonna come back from that. And they were right. The early ventilator mortality rates were through the roof, and so we let their oxygen saturations go down. A normal oxygen saturation right now, you should be over 94%. The hospital started getting worried when we saw below 90% or 88%, what have you.

**[1:10:40] Peter McCullough:** They started putting people on the ventilator, typically in the 80s. I had these people at home, and they had home oxygen. You know, then COVID was a long illness. This was 2020, 2021 in the 70s. In the 70s, and they go to the kitchen, maybe get something to eat, and they go into the 60s. And I'd say, here are the rules. Can you manage the work of breathing? Can I know you're a little breathless? But have you ever been to Pikes Peak or been a you know, you're a little breathless, but you can manage, right?

**[1:11:09] Peter McCullough:** So this idea of can you manage the work of breathing and can you think clearly? It's very important. So if there's mentation and you can manage the work of breathing, we can. It's called permissive hypoxemia. Turns out it was a brilliant strategy. And when we published these papers and Athanasiou Skoukoula-kos is the first author from UT Rio Grande, we realized, Oh my god, all these people who were put on the ventilator, it wasn't needed. The vast majority, we could have just allowed the oxygen saturations to go down, provided we were using ivermectin in the multidrug protocol.

**[1:11:43] Joe Rogan:** So what this war on ivermectin? Do you think that this was about vaccine hesitancy? This was about people found out that you could use ivermectin. And, you know, there's that famous Rolling Stone article, which I'll never forgive them from. It was so disgusting. They showed a bunch of people waiting in line at a hospital, and they said that people were waiting in line for the emergency room with gunshot wounds. Because so many people were overdosing with veterinary medication, ivermectin.

**[1:12:14] Joe Rogan:** They were calling it veterinary medication, of course. I mean, that's they called it horse dewormer on CNN with me.

**[1:12:19] Peter McCullough:** Oh my god.

**[1:12:20] Joe Rogan:** Do you remember that article? It's a crazy article because the people that are waiting in line, they're wearing winter coats. These people are waiting in line for the flu shot. It wasn't, it wasn't the same. It was, uh, July in Oklahoma or August in Oklahoma.

**[1:12:33] Peter McCullough:** It's it's complete fraud. Do you know the the FDA had out there? It's only a horse dewormer and all these things.

**[1:12:39] Joe Rogan:** You're not a horse.

**[1:12:39] Peter McCullough:** So so, Paul Merrick, uh, is one of the best critical care doctors in the world. Um, uh, ro- uh, Dr. Apter from Arizona, Mary Tilly Bowden, who you've had on the show. They sue the FDA, they sue the FDA and say, Listen, you're making false claims about ivermectin. The FDA gets lawyers, they start to, you know, engage. The lawyer said, Okay, uh, we'll take down all our false information. So the FDA, under Biden and Robert Califf, who is the commission of FDA, had a false campaign on ivermectin to dissuade people from using it.

**[1:13:15] Joe Rogan:** What is the root of this? Like, what what is the original person that says, Go out and do this? So it has to be

**[1:13:23] Peter McCullough:** J- Joe, it was in Australia, it was in Europe, it was in India, you know, they they tried. even in India, where Yeah, they

**[1:13:29] Joe Rogan:** it was effective.

**[1:13:30] Peter McCullough:** tried it. There was a there was a guy who came out from Emory, a Indian doctor from Emory, said, Listen, my mom just got revived with with ivermectin. That guy got squashed in 2 seconds. All over the world, there was some type of incredible force to squash what I think was the most valuable drug out of all the drugs in the pandemic. I think I put ivermectin number 1. I put steroids number 2. And and down the line, we used about 5 or 6 drugs in combination.

**[1:13:56] Peter McCullough:** So we get to just this last hearing that Ron Johnson has. And one of the most spectacular witnesses is an attorney, Ralph Lorigo. I don't know if you saw this. So people started contacting him and saying, Listen, my loved one's in the hospital. I think they could be saved with ivermectin. The doctors and hospitals are not allowing him to get ivermectin. I can't bring it into him. I want to s I want to get a court order to get him treated.

**[1:14:22] Peter McCullough:** So of 62 cases where he got the court order, and they actually got the ivermectin into the patient, they lived. Of the over a hundred hundred cases where they didn't get the court order, or they got the court order and they still blocked the ivermectin, they all died. And what Lorigo said, Listen, I'm a lawyer. This isn't a randomized trial. It's not, but these are the data. What I'm telling you is, if we would have had ivermectin monoclonal antibodies, McCullough protocol, which involved nasal sprays, gargles, all the vitamins, secondary antibiotics, aspirin, colchicine, antithrombotics, McCullough protocol, as I published it in the in American Journal of Medicine, was more extensive than what people got in the hospital.

**[1:15:05] Peter McCullough:** I've testified under oath that 85% of these deaths could have been avoided.

**[1:15:09] Joe Rogan:** How is that possible in 2020, 2021, with the internet, with all the available information, with people being able to speak freely? How is it possible that they suppress this information to such an extent that they suppress doctors using this on their patients? Supposedly people that they had been in their care, so probably a lot of people that they knew and loved and watched die. How is this possible?

**[1:15:40] Peter McCullough:** Censorship made it possible. The power of YouTube censorship and Google and Twitter and all of the social media, a any e- one of us trying to, you know, uh uh we're making observations, we're finding things that work, and we're putting out these observations, were crushed. And I tell you, it wasn't just social media, it was in the medical literature. So I'm thankful. You know, I published the most widely used protocol in the world that probably saved tens of millions of lives, spared hundreds of millions of hospitalizations.

**[1:16:15] Peter McCullough:** The pandemic would have been a lot worse without my protocol published in American Journal of Medicine, which is, you know, right up there with the New England Journal of Medicine. But when I got these letters to the editor in, you know, I got one from, uh, McGill, I got one from Manash in Australia, I got one from Brazil. Uh, they said, Dr. McCullough, you can't do this. You can't treat COVID patients. You don't have enough evidence.

**[1:16:39] Peter McCullough:** That's what Ashish Jha told me in the U.S. Senate, November 19th, 2020. And and I was there with George Freed, George George Freed was with he was with Fauci at the NIH 50 years ago. George Frey said, I'm using hydroxychloroquine, other drugs in combination. I mean, California has tons of Hispanics. They're they're pretty poor baseline care, and I'm saving them. He he treated 6,000 patients. Mary Telli Bodon treated thousands of patients in Houston. We're reporting what's working.

**[1:17:06] Peter McCullough:** I was told, Listen, you can't do this. You don't have enough data. We'll only have enough data for the vaccines. That's what Ashish Jha said. And you know what? The next day in the New York Times, he publishes an op-ed. Now I'm senior to him by a mile in academic medicine. He has done nothing compared to me. And you know what he publishes? That I'm a snake oil salesman. I'm a snake oil salesman of the Is that guy sin.

**[1:17:32] Joe Rogan:** still working?

**[1:17:33] Peter McCullough:** I think he's back as being a dean somewhere in the Northeast. So we saw stuff like that happen, and in the medical literature, we began to see retractions. Now, wait a minute, retraction. I've been an editor of major journals for decades. I've never retracted a paper because the the submission and peer review process is so arduous and so intensive, some papers can take years to get published. But when they're published, they're considered valid. People may not like them, they can write letters to the editor, we can debate things, but what we saw is we saw papers retracted.

**[1:18:09] Peter McCullough:** So, any paper that actually showed that therapeutics could work was threatened, potentially could be retracted. Any paper that found saw any flaw with the vaccines, ooh, watch out. And so what we'd get these notices that said, you know, we had a problem with reference 42 and 43. That's not a reason for retraction, you know, questioning administratively a reference. And yet these administrative retractions started coming in from all over. And and so, uh, now the medical literature became tainted and biased, and it's biased in only one direction, and it is favoring vaccines and disfavoring everything else.

**[1:18:53] Joe Rogan:** There's another thing I want to talk to you about when it comes to vaccination during a pandemic. Previous literature had pointed to discouraging vaccination during a pandemic because it encouraged variants.

**[1:19:08] Peter McCullough:** Y- y- uh, Gert Van de Bosch, uh, a virologist, uh, he's actually a doctor of veterinary medicine, but he had, uh, put that statement out in a valid way that we should never vaccinate in a pandemic, never. Because when you get a viral infection, it's up there in the nose, you know, it's percolating, by the way, for about a week. You never know it's there, and then it drains back to the throat, the lymphatics. You get a sore throat.

**[1:19:33] Peter McCullough:** That's the first sign you think you have a virus. You've already had it up here for about 7 days. It's percolating. You're, you don't have a single viral strain. You probably have 1,000 different substrain, just the virus replicates, it makes little mistakes. You introduce a vaccine, the vaccine has antibodies. The antibodies in the nose are called IgA. There's certain cells that can recognize the, um, the virus in the nose. They're keyed in on a certain strain.

**[1:20:01] Peter McCullough:** Well, the virus that's there that can escape this and thrive, it's gonna thrive. That's evolution, that's an evolutionary principle. So, of course, in a widely prevalent respiratory viral pandemic, vaccination is the worst strategy.

**[1:20:19] Joe Rogan:** Especially with a leaky vaccine, a vaccine that does No, it's not prevent

**[1:20:22] Peter McCullough:** it's not, it's not sterilizing, infection and doesn't right? See, it's not sterilizing, and it can't be sterilizing. I if you had because the vaccines were all coded for one part. Oh, and Joe, I have to give you your virus at this stage.

**[1:20:36] Joe Rogan:** Did you wanna give me a virus? Oh, boy,

**[1:20:39] Peter McCullough:** I brought this all the way from Amazon.

**[1:20:43] Joe Rogan:** you gotta give me a virus from the Amazon. Yes, and Oh, Amazon. here you go. I com

**[1:20:48] Peter McCullough:** I'm gonna give you 3 of them. So here you go. So this is the example.

**[1:20:52] Joe Rogan:** Am I sick now? Yeah, so How's that work?

**[1:20:54] Peter McCullough:** listen, all these guys are all SARS-CoV-2, but they're a little different, okay? So, the vaccines Pfizer, Moderna, Janssen, and Novavax, they're only directed against the spike protein, which is this little spike on the surface. It turns out there's like 30 other proteins inside the nucleocapsid. So all the virus has to do is change its spike protein a little bit, and it's free. See, it's very different than a sterilizing vaccine. A sterilizing vaccine would be comprehensive against many, many different proteins.

**[1:21:28] Peter McCullough:** Even if you changed a little bit, you could your body's immune system could wipe it out.

**[1:21:32] Joe Rogan:** Can you give me an example of a sterilizing vaccine?

**[1:21:35] Peter McCullough:** You know, there there's not good examples for viral vaccines. So, for instance, influenza vaccines are not sterilizing, pertussis vaccines are not sterilizing. Um, it's hard to understand me. Maybe some of the, um, bacterial, uh, vaccines, I'd have to put some. I'd probably have to consult an expert on this to tell you the truth. But but the idea is, for sure, going after the spike protein alone was a mistake because th- th- that's actually the most pleomorphic or mutational part of the whole virus.

**[1:22:07] Peter McCullough:** You know, the the the envelope protein, the nucleocapsid, they don't change that much, but the virus would just say, Listen, I'll just change the spike protein. And so there were papers by a Corsi, a Chiarion, uh, and others that measured the viral load in the nose and mouth of the vaccinated and unvaccinated, and they were the same. This is in 2021. So vaccinated were going around with the virus, and they were equally as contagious. They were infecting other vaccinated people.

**[1:22:35] Peter McCullough:** And there was a a paper from Houston, Faron Hope said, an entire vaccinated wedding, and they all got COVID, they all had taken the vaccine. So in August of 2021, Rochelle Walensky comes out, and this is a this is a press release. Said, Listen, got a news release. The vaccines are not stopping transmission of the virus. She says it officially. What happens within a few months? All the employers in the Biden administration and the athletic teams say vaccine mandates.

**[1:23:06] Peter McCullough:** So they mandated the vaccines after the knowledge that they don't stop transmission. The only reason to ever mandate a vaccine would be that it was going to protect the workplace.

**[1:23:16] Joe Rogan:** One of the more egregious bits of propaganda was Rachel Maddow on TV saying, The virus stops with you. When you remember that when if you get vaccinated, the virus stops with you. You can't infect anyone else. You can't get infected. We can get out of this. The virus stops with what made you. Was

**[1:23:35] Peter McCullough:** her so Joe, what made her so confident?

**[1:23:38] Joe Rogan:** Well, she's a lesbian. When you're lesbian on television, you have incredible confidence. Also, she's wearing a nice suit. She's

**[1:23:46] Peter McCullough:** This?

**[1:23:46] Joe Rogan:** on television.

**[1:23:47] Peter McCullough:** She's got the longest neck. I I don't know. It's like a giraffe.

**[1:23:50] Joe Rogan:** She's obviously very smart. That's why she's so confident.

**[1:23:53] Peter McCullough:** I think I think that people he the people have a hard time with ambiguity.

**[1:24:03] Joe Rogan:** I don't think that. I think they were giving a mandate. She was, I think she was told to discuss it in that manner.

**[1:24:09] Peter McCullough:** But listen, you never said that. I never said that.

**[1:24:11] Joe Rogan:** Well, I certainly didn't. I got in trouble for not doing I know it.

**[1:24:14] Peter McCullough:** when people ask me, Listen, I I'm a doctor. My this this thing came was rolling out. My patients were asking me, Dr. McCullough, should I take a vaccine? My honest answer is I don't know. I don't know i if they work. I don't know if they're safe. So ambiguity, that's the important point. There was nobody in the public health apparatus that that c- could even live with ambiguity for a second.

**[1:24:39] Joe Rogan:** Did you ever see the Facebook call with Mark Zuckerberg dealing with the entire thing where he's like, there's a call where he's, like, warning people about this? Where he's saying, we don't really know what's going to happen with this gene therapy. Yeah, this is like early on. But can you Well, by the way, do you remember during Trump's administration was when all this was discussed, and all of these people, including Kamala Harris, all these people were saying, Are you gonna trust a vaccine that Trump comes up with?

**[1:25:10] Joe Rogan:** I'm not gonna trust I remember it. Do you remember

**[1:25:12] Peter McCullough:** that? Yeah, yeah. that? Yeah, Oh, I'm not boy, did that gonna

**[1:25:13] Joe Rogan:** switch over when Biden became president, then everybody trusted and then nobody it.

**[1:25:17] Peter McCullough:** called him on it.

**[1:25:18] Joe Rogan:** It's the exact same vaccine, but yet because Trump wasn't involved anymore and it was Biden promoting it, everybody was gung-ho for the same exact medication that they wouldn't trust because Trump was a part of Well, it.

**[1:25:32] Peter McCullough:** why would a medical problem get politicized? It affects both Democrats and Everything's politicized Republicans.

**[1:25:37] Joe Rogan:** in this stupid country.

**[1:25:38] Peter McCullough:** But it it this is the type of thing where you'd say, Listen, they're not gonna take a vaccine under Trump, but under Biden, it's the same vaccine, they're gonna take it. Th- th- this is th- this is this madness that we saw through the pandemic, but sadly, people were harmed. I'm on record, the U.S. Senate, saying that 85% of these deaths of COVID deaths could have been spared with an intensive early treatment pro program at home, continued through the hospitalization, including monoclonal antibodies and ivermectin.

**[1:26:05] Peter McCullough:** Listen, when Paxlovid came in or molnupiravir, terrific. Believe it or not, we have a drug now that's approved for post-exposure prophylaxis in really sick patients called Zocova. I can prescribe it, and people can take it once they've been exposed to COVID. There's even a monoclonal antibody, uh, pair called Pem Pemgarda. I can, uh, prescribe that and give it an infusion every 3 months if I had a really sick and frail person. People who who who had organ transplants and other serious diseases, they were more prone to death, not because of the virus, but because of their frailty.

**[1:26:40] Peter McCullough:** This is very important their frailty. It turns out, for the viral infection, we actually gave immunosuppressants. S steroids are immunosuppressants, so being immunosuppressed itself was not. I mean, I've had people with heart transplants who went through it. That's not the problem, it's the frailty. And, you know, the opposite, when we got to people, look how big and strong you are, Joe. You get to people. There was a paper by Daniels and colleagues, um, from, uh, the NCAA, uh, and, uh, there's 2 papers, uh, in college athletics.

**[1:27:11] Peter McCullough:** Do you know by 2020, 30% of all college athletes and kids had already had COVID in 2020? By the time we get to 2022, 70% had gotten COVID. And, you know, among all those athletes, no serious cases, no hospitalizations, and deaths.

**[1:27:29] Joe Rogan:** Right. Importantly, there was no data at all that showed that the vaccine stopped infection or stopped transmission. So when they were saying that so confidently on television, they were completely talking out of their ass.

**[1:27:42] Peter McCullough:** Well, you knew it. The the the original trials, remember? It was 1 month of the primary series, and they kinda cheated on that. So the primary series in the vaccine group, you weren't considered an infection. An infection didn't count until after 2 shots, but in the placebo, it did. See, that was they there was modify intent to treat. That was actually cheating. You should count all the infections in both groups equally. There's an analysis by Michaels and colleagues that had nailed this down.

**[1:28:12] Peter McCullough:** But in the clinical trials, there's 1 month of getting the shots, and there's 2 months of observation. So when Rachel Maddow says that, or anybody says that at month 4, no one could have known. The trial was only 2 months after the primary series. So, that that's an So what example. instructed people, Eh, eh, what? What was eh it about them I I think that made them say it's a

**[1:28:32] Joe Rogan:** it so confidently?

**[1:28:32] Peter McCullough:** it's a wishful it's I think people are wishful that they take on this this religious zeal around vaccines. And I I've been looking for the memos. I'm a frequent contributor on Fox. I go on all the stations. I'm I'm looking for the memo that says, Listen, become a zealot over the vaccines. I never got any memo like that. A and and I saw it happen worldwide, by the way. So it's all over the world. I think there's an infectious, contagious groupthink around mass formation this.

**[1:29:02] Peter McCullough:** Yes, and psychosis. Yeah, people there, there's, um, there's a word, uh, about people who mimic their beh- other people's behaviors. They just they hear something, and and they just kinda chime in. And it it's called a mimesis. There was a mass mimesis, and people fell into this. And and this is stunning that very few people could see it. Now, once you could see it, it seems like you could see it right away. I could see it right away.

**[1:29:29] Joe Rogan:** well, I couldn't see it right away. I almost got vaccinated. You know, the UFC allocated a bunch of vaccines for all of their employees. We were doing shows during the pandemic in a place called the Apex Center. The Apex Center is a very small arena that the UFC has. And what they did was they had shows where they would put on fights, but they COVID tested everyone and all the staff, all the corner people, and all the fighters.

**[1:29:54] Joe Rogan:** And so you would show up, you I got tested before I got on a plane. I landed, I went to Vegas, I got tested in Vegas, and then you had to isolate, and then you had to show up for the event. They told me, We have the COVID vaccine. Do you want to take it? And I said, Sure. This is early. The UFC was the first

**[1:30:13] Peter McCullough:** What month? What month?

**[1:30:14] Joe Rogan:** organization. It, um, I wish I could remember. I don't, but it was the Johnson and Johnson is what they had allocated. The one shot, you're done. I'm like, Okay, give it to me. So I showed up on a a Saturday, and I I showed up for the event, and I said, Hey, can you vaccinate me? I was gonna get vaccinated before the fights. So I got there in the morning and I was like, Can you guys vaccinate me?

**[1:30:34] Joe Rogan:** And they said, Yeah, we're gonna get the the doctor. We'll call you right back. And then they said, Ah, I talked to the doctor, he said, We can't do it here. Can you come to the clinic on Monday? I said, I can't come on Monday. Um, I have to leave tomorrow, but I'll be back in 2 weeks for the next event. Can we do it then? They said, Yes. Great. During that 2 v 2 weeks, 2 people I knew had strokes.

**[1:30:56] Joe Rogan:** After 2 people

**[1:30:57] Peter McCullough:** taking the shot?

**[1:30:57] Joe Rogan:** after taking the shots. That you knew 2 people.

**[1:30:59] Peter McCullough:** personally?

**[1:30:59] Joe Rogan:** Yes. 1 that I didn't know personally, that, but m a good friend of mine knew, and then 1 that I knew. And and a bunch of people got really ill, and it was weird. And I said, Hang on, what's going on here? And that's when I started to get a little hesitant, cause one of the guys was 50 years old and very healthy. And I was like, This is weird. It was weird. Um, and I just started getting a little nervous, and I was never vaccine hesitant at all.

**[1:31:24] Joe Rogan:** In fact, uh, there's been podcasts before where I was mocking people were that were anti-vaccine. I thought that was ridiculous. Like, I, I had thought that all the science had been settled. Vaccines were the most important. I mean, I had a joke that I did in my po- my last comedy special before COVID. I thought vaccines were the most important invention in human history. After vaccines, or after COVID, rather, I was like, I don't think we went to the moon.

**[1:31:47] Joe Rogan:** Because I was like, I think there's so much horseshit, there's so much lies and so much propaganda. I'm like, This is I don't believe anything anymore, like, this is crazy. So I had gone through that, and then I said, Okay, let me figure out what's gonna happen. Then my family got sick, and my wife got sick, and my kids got sick, and I never got it. I had a couple of days where I felt a little weird in the gym, so I just worked out lightly.

**[1:32:14] Joe Rogan:** But I work out almost every day, and I have a very strict vitamin protocol. And I, um, I take vitamins every day, and I take a bunch. I take all I take vitamin D, I take vitamin A, K2, D3, I take

**[1:32:31] Peter McCullough:** Bring it on. it all, and I'm Yeah,

**[1:32:33] Joe Rogan:** very healthy. And I think it's part of that. And I'm I'm a firm believer in supplementation. This is not just voodoo. It's just me talking to scientists and me talking to doctors and me talking to athletes in particular. And so, uh, I was hesitant, uh, about it then. And then I knew multiple people that had problems, multiple people that had real problems. One of 1 of my friends had to get a pacemaker. He was in his 40s.

**[1:32:56] Joe Rogan:** Yeah, um, uh, another one that I knew started blacking out. He had to get a p. It was a a f- a friend of mine, a good friend of mine's brother, who was a dentist, he had to get a pacemaker, and he was in his 30s. Okay, it was. It got really fucking weird. And I was like, What is going on here? Now, I had already known about certain side effects of pharmaceutical drugs that had been suppressed.

**[1:33:18] Joe Rogan:** Um, you know, one of them was, uh, Vioxx, because I knew a guy who had a stroke, who was a UFC fighter, who was a real a elite athlete, and he had, you know, knee problems and arthritis, and he took Vioxx, had a stroke. And I was like, What the fuck is going on? I was like, so something weird is happening. And I knew that vaccine or excuse me, pharmaceutical drug companies would put out medications that they knew were gonna have potential deadly side effects.

**[1:33:46] Joe Rogan:** And Vioxx wound up killing somewhere around 50,000 Americans, right? So I started getting hesitant. But then when my family got it and I didn't get it, and I slept with my wife, I slept in the bed with her, I had sex with her. Um, I hugged my kids. I didn't do shit. I didn't wear a mask. I didn't like, I'm like, I'll I'm like, I think I'll just get it and get it over with, but I didn't get it.

**[1:34:06] Joe Rogan:** I was like, This is weird. I thought this shit was just gonna get you like a ghost. It was gonna haunt you and your if if you're around people that have COVID, you're fucked. But no, I didn't get it at all. And the only time I got it was a couple, like, a year later or two, whatever it was. I was in Florida, and I had done a bunch of shows. I was doing arenas, right? So I was doing stand-up comedy in front of 16,000 people, everyone's laughing, which is like the worst way, right?

**[1:34:35] Joe Rogan:** And, uh, my friend John, my friend John Shulman, who's a a a guy who, uh, makes pool cues. Shout out to John Shulman, good buddy of mine. Um, he and I met up to play pool, and we played pool till like 5: 00 in the morning. I had a bunch of margaritas, had drinks. I was exhausted at the end of it, and then I started feeling terrible the next day. And that's when I got COVID. But it was just because I had destroyed my immune system by staying up till 5: 00 in the morning, playing pool and drinking.

**[1:35:01] Peter McCullough:** well, if you heard of germ versus terrain, right? So the idea is you probably had the virus many, many times in your nasopharynx, and your immune system is working, working, working. You just have enough of a a of a wrinkle in it. Then it or or you get a big enough inoculum. That is, you know, you get enough of it at once. Now, interestingly, I think there

**[1:35:21] Joe Rogan:** it was my immune system being right, you you just distorted. Yeah, get a little it was me getting drinking. I think the drinking was the thing.

**[1:35:27] Peter McCullough:** So, um, the vaccine you were gonna take is Janssen. Janssen was an adenoviral vaccine, so it's not messenger RNA, so this is a replication-competent adenovirus. It gives the genetic instructions temporarily for your body to make a massive amount of the spike protein. Massive, and the adenoviral vector itself is thrombogenic. And so, and by the way, uh, Janssen and AstraZeneca are nearly the same. They were made by the same manufacturer, Emergent Biosolutions out of Baltimore, a biodefense contractor.

**[1:36:02] Peter McCullough:** It's kind of interesting. Why is a biodefense contractor making a human vaccine for a pandemic? Anyhow, so you have AZ, and you have

**[1:36:09] Joe Rogan:** Why is that?

**[1:36:10] Peter McCullough:** Janssen going. None of the companies make their own products. They subcontract to Well, biodefense contractors. oi. Moderna's made by a company called Resilience. Uh, anyhow, back Funded on

**[1:36:22] Joe Rogan:** by the DOD.

**[1:36:23] Peter McCullough:** back on the story. So the point is, this one was so thrombogenic. There's a disease named after it. It's called VITT vaccine-induced thrombotic thrombocytopenia. So the platelet count goes down, massive blood clots form, blood clots form actually in the brain, in the major sinuses in the brain. This is horrible. And when that happens, there's a 30% mortality rate. People have to have their skulls opened. There were huge blood clots forming in the legs, shooting to the lungs.

**[1:36:51] Peter McCullough:** It was so bad that was AstraZeneca and Janssen. You know, we we got to mid-pandemic, and and and p court cases were were coming up a all over, and they both withdrew their vaccines. Pfizer Moderna had the same blood clot problems, and they stuck with it. They should have all pulled off. And you avoided a nightmare because that vaccine was a blood clot, y- you know, threat to anybody who took it. It's very important to understand that all of these vaccines have risks and benefits.

**[1:37:28] Peter McCullough:** The COVID vaccines, the equation is so stilted towards risk, and so minimal and theoretical benefit, it became the most obvious example of something really going wrong in a in a biopharmaceutical equation. And when I I've pushed artificial intelligence, and I've said, Listen, look at the major journals, Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, British Medical Journal, uh, New England Journal of Medicine. I've published in all of them. And I said, find a paper where the conclusion is that the risks outweigh the benefits.

**[1:38:07] Peter McCullough:** You can't find one 100%, no matter what, say that the theoretical benefits outweigh the real risks. Now you go elsewhere, you can find the papers. What does that tell you? There's editorial bias. They're not gonna allow a paper in one of these big journals that concludes this. And I can tell you, with anything else in medicine, there's balance. If you take a papers on statins, there'll be papers saying, well, you know, the the risks outweigh the benefits here.

**[1:38:36] Peter McCullough:** The the back surgery, there's always a balance. When it comes to these COVID vaccines, there's no balance. It's a 100% bias, and I think it comes from the originator. So these papers come from large academic institutions. They all mandated the vaccines. All the authors took the vaccines. They pushed the vaccines on their patients. Do you think a paper's gonna come out from Harvard or Baylor or Emory or UCLA concluding that the vaccines, the risks outweigh the benefits?

**[1:39:09] Peter McCullough:** That that paper is not even gonna be get out the door.

**[1:39:13] Joe Rogan:** That's terrifying if it's true, It's true. Listen, but I know it's true.

**[1:39:16] Peter McCullough:** because, uh, I was a division chief, I was a program director, I was a chief academic scientific officer. I had to sign off on these papers. If I was at an institution where there was a mandate and a paper like that came, and I'm sure they're out there, there's no way they would get approved.

**[1:39:31] Joe Rogan:** Now, one of the things that's really disturbing is reports that people today, 5 years after they've been vaccinated, their body's still producing spike proteins.

**[1:39:45] Peter McCullough:** We published the first. Hauser and colleagues. We published this in the, um, European Society of Medicine Medical Archives Patient of Mine. He's, uh, worked for a pharmaceutical company. He's trying to do the right thing. Uh, in 2014, before the pandemic, he has a blood clot, which people can have, and and, uh, he got treated for it. So we knew clinically he was at risk for blood clots. So he takes 2 Pfizers. What happens? He gets blood clots, and they shoot to his lungs with 2 Pfizers, and he develops myocarditis, proven by MRI.

**[1:40:18] Peter McCullough:** His employer says, Listen, it's time for boosters. You gotta take a booster. He takes a booster. He has even more blood clots. He said, Listen, this is nuts. I'm gonna die with these things. So he sees me. We engage in research, we do blood tests, skin biopsies, everything, and we do repeated samples. We use a lab in Germany doing research. We find Pfizer intact and circulating in his blood and the spike protein for 3 and a half years after the shot.

**[1:40:49] Peter McCullough:** How in the world can the vaccine be there? There's little pieces of code for it. And it has to do with a Nobel Prize-winning advancement called pseudouridination. And what happened is in the development of messenger RNA, which is a very long development history, it goes back to the 80s. There's a paper by Lalanian colleagues, uh, that outlines this. There's people have been working on this forever, cause it's a wonderful way to make a peptide, by the way.

**[1:41:15] Peter McCullough:** T talk about making designer peptides. Messenger RNA would be a great way to make peptides, cause that's what it does. So you take messenger RNA, and your body is making it right now. It's it's reading it, it's producing proteins. You're produce you're pr- you're making proteins. You and I are making proteins, we're talking to each other. That messenger RNA is single-use. Natural messenger RNA is dissolved by RNAsease, ribonucleic acid nucleases. So it's single-use, and you make more.

**[1:41:44] Peter McCullough:** So when synthetic messenger RNA came along, and you gave it to patients back in the 80s or 90s, the body would dissolve it, wouldn't do much. And then the idea, and Kariko and Weissman had this idea. There's 4 base pairs for A and, uh, RNA. Adenine, guanine, um, uh, thymosine, and, uh, uracil. Replace the uracil with a synthetic nucleoside analog called pseudouridine. So what happened in the Pfizer and Moderna development program, and Kariko and Weissman had, you know, were gonna win the Nobel Prize for inventing this in in in 2022, and they got it, is?

**[1:42:25] Peter McCullough:** They said, Okay, let's replace 25% of the uracil, see if it lasts longer. Well, it lasted a little bit longer. Well, how about replace half of them? Lasted even longer. And they got down to the end, they had to make a decision. They said, Damn, the torpedoes, replace all of them. And when they did that, they made a synthetic messenger RNA that appears to be nearly completely resistant to any human breakdown. It's synthetic. And so now there's a a molecule in people's bodies that, for some, they can't degrade it, they can't get rid of it.

**[1:43:05] Peter McCullough:** And one of these is my patient. Now, there's polymorphisms in our enzymatic clearance system. Some people have loss-of-function mutations in there. They're the ones who are probably accumulating messenger RNA. Other people are clearing this out just fine. But the scary proposition is there are people who have taken this vaccine. Pfizer Moderna, it's still in their body. It's still producing spike protein. It's accumulating. And then, sure enough, look, what just happened to, um, Chris Murphy. Sure enough, 4 years after a shot, stroke.

**[1:43:42] Joe Rogan:** And people are still taking this.

**[1:43:44] Peter McCullough:** Very few.

**[1:43:45] Joe Rogan:** But enough that I've seen people post about it online, like o- openly bragging, or at least You know, this signaling that they're following the the science.

**[1:43:58] Peter McCullough:** the CDC quit keeping track of who actually took boosters in 2023.

**[1:44:05] Joe Rogan:** Why?

**[1:44:08] Peter McCullough:** Almost certainly because of low uptake. And so what happened is they rely on what's called NIS, the National Immunization Survey, which is a robo phone call. Talk about getting robo phone calls this election day. And you know, they were pouring in last night. So a robocall comes in and says, Hey, we want to talk to you about taking vaccines. Are you gonna take a COVID vaccine? They ask you a bunch of questions, and it's only those people who answer it.

**[1:44:29] Peter McCullough:** So the CDC started in 2023 said, Listen, we think 15% of people are taking boosters from a robocall, not from actual data. So last year, McCullough Foundation said, Listen, and this foundation I started to do research since our organizations are not doing the research that we need. We said, Listen, let's take the data from Pfizer Moderna, the sales data, where they said they sold the vaccine units, what they charged for it, what the revenue was, what the wastage was, and we can figure out how many doses were delivered.

**[1:44:59] Peter McCullough:** Answer Last year, it was 8.9% of people took a booster last year. This year, I think it's gonna be under 5%. That's still a lot, I know, but a government's, y- you know, contracting for billions of dollars.

**[1:45:15] Joe Rogan:** right? But, uh, which is horrifying. But if all the things that you're saying are true, and that the risk outweighs the reward, and that with many people, your body continues to produce spike protein years later, how in the world are they still prescribing this?

**[1:45:32] Peter McCullough:** I think there's some people who clear it out. Listen, my neighbor's somebody, he's taken every shot. He, he, he to him, it's like an elixir. He He is fine. And I have people in my family who find that they have very high antibody levels to the spike protein, meaning the messenger RNA is chugging away at spike protein. But this is another part to the secret here. If you have the vaccine in you and you're producing lots of spike protein, these little spikes, but the antibodies that are made to it are perfectly keyed to the spike protein, gonna neutralize it, neutralize it, neutralize it.

**[1:46:07] Peter McCullough:** It's a perfect sys system. Now, it may not prevent COVID because a variant over here can just get around it, but you're gonna stop the vaccine spike protein being produced. If there's any wrinkle in that, and there's IgG 1 and 2 neutralize the spike protein, but IgG 3 and 4, particularly 4, do not. If there's what's called IgG subclass switching, and we get to, you know, the immune system essentially gets tired of seeing this and get to IgG 4, then you have unopposed spike protein.

**[1:46:38] Peter McCullough:** Now we're in trouble, because if there's unopposed spike protein, there's a paper by Yonkers and colleagues in circulation showing that's what damages the heart. So it explains why you can have one of these athletes, and he's going along fine, took some shots several years ago, and all of a sudden, boom, a cardiac arrest. That's called COVID vaccine subclinical myocarditis, and then a cardiac arrest. We've seen this in athlete after athlete after athlete. Uh, you know, when Demar Hamlin went down for the Buffalo Bills, you know, he's he's playing God bless him.

**[1:47:12] Peter McCullough:** But when he went down, Fox called me. Tucker was that was back when Tucker was on Fox, and they said, Listen, you know, a cardiologist, can you come on? And so I I watched it. In fact, I had a friend there at the game. We were texting about what was going on. I said, Sure, I'll go on. And and the first thing that I was asked is, What do you think caused his cardiac arrest? And I said, Well, the tackle is ruled out.

**[1:47:32] Peter McCullough:** This is very important. When there's trauma, is what we have was called the mechanism of injury. The mechanism is injury is your common sense assessment of can this mechanism cause this event? So if you had a car wreck like this and there's a broken neck, you'd say, no, the neck was not broken from the car wreck, right? The the mechanism wasn't sufficient. When you have a football helmet and there's a breastplate, there's no way that can precipitate a cardiac arrest.

**[1:47:59] Peter McCullough:** It's never happened in the history of pro football, ever. So I knew it wasn't the tackle. He had tackled him. He got up. He was about ready to clap or adjust his helmet, and then he collapsed. That's a vaccine cardiac arrest. He had a big surge of adrenaline, he had vaccine myocarditis. A that's the perfect meal for a cardiac arrest. He got very good resuscitation. He probably aspirated some Gatorade, cause I was watching what was going on, so he had some of that in his lungs.

**[1:48:28] Peter McCullough:** Gets to the hospital, has a perfect resuscitation, perfectly normal cardiac function, no heart failure. He passed all his tests. And in fact, I was watching that. I said, you know what? If he got McCullough protocol spike detoxification, which is my second contribution to what's going on here, and he can get rid of the spike protein. And he used critical drug treatment with a drug called colchicine, which is very safe, but all the myocarditis patients need colchicine.

**[1:48:53] Peter McCullough:** I said, I bet he can avoid getting a defibrillator. Virtually everybody has to get a defibrillator if they have a primary arrest, because this is a form of cardiac arrest. That's treatable with spike detoxification, which is nattokinase, bromelain and curcumin and natural products, plus colchicine. Super important. And we wrote the Buffalo Bills doctors, wrote the Buffalo Evening News. Of course, they never write back, but I would lay odds that Demar Hamlin has gotten my protocol. He's never needed an ICD and he's back playing.

**[1:49:24] Peter McCullough:** So this is very important. And I have many patients in my practice like this. They don't need ICDs. This is a very important message. If there's vaccine myocarditis and a cardiac arrest, if they're appropriately treated for the spike protein and get this out of the heart and out of the system, they can be fine.

**[1:49:40] Joe Rogan:** Well, we saw a lot of athletes during the pandemic drop. And it was really disturbing, particularly soccer players who have some of the best cardio you've ever seen. The car soccer is all about cardio. It's all about leg strength and cardio and coordination, obviously, but they're running constantly. If you ever watch a live professional soccer match, it's extraordinary. I mean, these guys are constantly sprinting. And it wasn't a common thing to see them drop, but we saw a lot of it during the pandemic.

**[1:50:10] Peter McCullough:** it was a a panegis polycresius and myself published in the European leagues, uh, pro and semi-pro under age 35. We had all the data tenfold increase in 2021 when they rolled out the vaccines and they forced him to Tenfold. take it. Tenfold. And the best example is, uh, Christian Eriksen, Danish, uh, soccer player. He has a primary cardiac arrest, for sure, you know, e everybody denies the vaccines, or the managers that they they all took the vaccines.

**[1:50:35] Peter McCullough:** I mean, I should tell you right now they did. And, uh, he he actually gets a defibrillator, he gets a subcutaneous ICD. My fear is that he never got the appropriately treated with, uh, spike detoxification and with colchicine. And, you know, about five years later, he just had a second arrest. And and the defibrillator saved him. But check on your patients who needed pacemakers. I guarantee they had vaccine myocarditis, and I have patients like this too.

**[1:50:59] Peter McCullough:** None of my pacemaker patients now actually need the pacemaker. So they can interrogate their pacemakers, Joe, and they can ask the question, does the body need the pacemaker now, or is the body managing its own rhythm? If they're appropriately and a wellness company we've come up with, um, s uh, uh, Ultimates by Detox, which is one. If you go on Amazon, you'll find a a lot of these products, but Ultimates by Detox is high dose, medicinal grade nattokinase, bromelain and curcumin, which most people need to get out of this problem.

**[1:51:34] Peter McCullough:** It's vital. It's the reason why we formed the wellness company in 2022, because we were fulfilling an unmet need.

**[1:51:41] Joe Rogan:** What was the, um, rate of adoption in professional sports in the United States? Was it all sports? I know the NFL, my friend Aaron Rodgers had a real issue, obviously, you know that story where he was actually allergic to one of the ingredients in one of the vaccines. So he had a very legitimate medical reason for not taking it. And yet he was raked over the coals. Well, didn't Like,

**[1:52:07] Peter McCullough:** they make him wear a special band and

**[1:52:09] Joe Rogan:** No, they didn't.

**[1:52:09] Peter McCullough:** and and and all of this? Uh, but isn't it interesting? You have Aaron Rodgers at the time. Aaron was the number one quarterback in the league at that time. He was number one. You had the number one tennis player, Novak Djokovic. You had Kyrie Irving, who was probably one of the top people in the NBA. All of them said, Listen, my body is more important than this. I don't need this vaccine. Eric Clapton, greatest guitar player in the world, doesn't, you know, he takes Well, he a vaccine

**[1:52:39] Joe Rogan:** took it and had a horrible

**[1:52:40] Peter McCullough:** and he had a horrible time. reaction and But

**[1:52:41] Joe Rogan:** was really attacked. Like they wrote a horrible LA Times article about what a terrible person he was because he talked about the side effects he couldn't play of being vaccinated.

**[1:52:51] Peter McCullough:** for a year. Yeah, E Eric told me he couldn't play for a year. He had a baseline, Neuropathy, couldn't play for a year. These other superstar players aren't going to take it. And yet the punishment they received for, and and then sadly, people did take it. Demar Hamlin, Christian Anderson, all these athletes who had cardiac arrest. Look at Bronny James, who had a near miss. LeBron James son. You had, uh, Uwichuchu, who played, um, for U S C.

**[1:53:17] Peter McCullough:** He has a USC mandated the vaccine, so 100 these guys took the vaccines, the USC, uh, basketball team. Uwchuchu, he has a cardiac arrest. He actually gets a defibrillator. He got a transvenous defibrillator in. There's all these players out here who are damaged. What I hope is I hope Cam Newton is right. And you know what Cam said, you know, Cam kind of grumbled about the vaccines and the Atlantic, uh, wrote a horrible piece about Cam.

**[1:53:44] Peter McCullough:** Y. Y. You know what ultimately he said?

**[1:53:45] Joe Rogan:** What?

**[1:53:46] Peter McCullough:** He said, I think a lot of these people got fake vaccine cards.

**[1:53:51] Joe Rogan:** Oh, they definitely did. I personally know people who got fake vaccine cards cause they needed to travel,

**[1:53:57] Peter McCullough:** well, think about it. This is a war. Nobody's being honest with us. Governments are not being honest with us. Why would people be honest with a a paper card where somebody's scribbling writing? Now in Europe, they actually had electronic systems in Canada, it was, but United States, it was a lousy paper card. Half my patients can't even find their cards for crying out loud.

**[1:54:19] Joe Rogan:** What is this, uh, supplement This is, you have here?

**[1:54:20] Peter McCullough:** um, wellness company ultimate spike detox. This is high dose nattokinase, bromelain and curcumin, plus minor ingredients.

**[1:54:30] Joe Rogan:** What's that?

**[1:54:30] Peter McCullough:** It's natural, and this is what we use, Joe, to clear the spike protein out of the body. It has very, very good supportive data. Nattokinase gets inside and outside of cells.

**[1:54:40] Joe Rogan:** I take that.

**[1:54:41] Peter McCullough:** I take it myself. It dissolves the spike protein, um, it's anti-thrombotic, it helps fight blood clots, and it is our lead product. And we intentionally didn't patent this. Now it's it's copyrighted my name so people can locate it, but we intentionally didn't patent it because the whole world needs this stuff. And if you were to go to Amazon right now and type in spike detox, you'd see about three dozen rows of products, all different companies. Wellness company is the lead.

**[1:55:08] Peter McCullough:** We've done this is 2022. But the point is, if people get on the right detoxification protocol, spike detox is huge. Another thing you do a lot of that really helps is sweating. If you sweat, do you know the messenger RNA Pfizer's been shown in breast milk? Breast milk is modified

**[1:55:29] Joe Rogan:** Oh, God.

**[1:55:30] Peter McCullough:** S. It's and what it's modified sweat. Uh, in my patient, uh, we did skin biopsies. So kids are It's right there.

**[1:55:35] Joe Rogan:** getting vaccinated through their mother's milk, essentially. Oh, God.

**[1:55:39] Peter McCullough:** and the spike protein and the and the vaccine's been found in the placenta. But Joe, the body can heal and get rid of this. I want to be very hopeful to people on this. They have to stop taking more shots. Most people have get on spike detoxification and find whatever protocol. Now, you know, this is a blood thinner. It's very important. This is a minor blood thinner, so people on blood thinners. I use this in conjunction with blood thinners, but I'm a doctor and I, you know, oversee this.

**[1:56:10] Peter McCullough:** But you know, we have four U. S. senators now with premature stroke, which is a blood clot. Nick Hallstetter Yeah, Nick Holsher at McCullough

**[1:56:19] Joe Rogan:** Holsher, the how you say Foundation. Yeah, his name. He, um, posted something today that 5% of Democratic senators or Congress people 9%, 9%.

**[1:56:30] Peter McCullough:** 9%, it's four out of forty five, it's 8.9%. So Nick and I were on Newsmax last night, Explain which what they got the okay, so

**[1:56:36] Joe Rogan:** 9%.

**[1:56:37] Peter McCullough:** okay, so it's four out of forty five Democratic senators right now have had a stroke before age 65. So these people are younger than me, Joe, and they've had a stroke, so we just had How unusual cut.

**[1:56:49] Joe Rogan:** is that?

**[1:56:50] Peter McCullough:** It should be way, way th that less than one of the population ever has this happen. And they publicly take vaccines. So Chris

**[1:57:01] Joe Rogan:** Informatory?

**[1:57:01] Peter McCullough:** Murphy, right? And and listen, I took the vaccine. So we have Chris Murphy, Chris Van Hollen, Benj Benray Lujan, and we had, um, John Fetterman. Now, Fetterman had atrial fibrillation back in 2017, which is a risk factor for stroke and blood clots, not on blood thinners. And he have gone into heart failure. He had leg swelling and problems. He publicly takes the shots in 2020, 2021, 2022, in the milieu of atrial fibrillation, not on blood thinners.

**[1:57:29] Peter McCullough:** He has a stroke. Now he has trouble speaking. Now, last night, I told Rob Fenderi on Newsmax, I said, Listen, I think Murphy's gonna be fine. I usually have good judgment on this. Uh, it's probably an internal capsule stroke, which is a little strategic place in the brain that that can be dissolved and he'll come back fine. Uh, my mom had an internal capsule stroke. Um, the one thing I've done is I've not been wrong, and I've been on the I've been on, um, prime time news now, probably hundreds of times over the last five years.

**[1:57:59] Peter McCullough:** I'm not wrong. When DeBar Hamlin had a cardiac arrest, I said, Listen, he's gonna come back, he's gonna walk out of the hospital. May just fine. You know, Mark Siegel, who's on Fox? Mark says, Oh, we need to raise money for his family. He's a goner. He'll never survive. It's like, you know, we we need to have doctors who are right and can give accurate information to the public. And if we ever have another pandemic, well, I I can tell you right now, I think I don't think people are gonna trust the government.

**[1:58:27] Peter McCullough:** They're gonna be going directly to people who have been right all along.

**[1:58:31] Joe Rogan:** I think you're right. Another thing I want to talk to you about cancer. How many people who took these vaccines have aggressive cancer? And, ironically, including the former CEO of YouTube, who actively suppressed all the information about anything that had anything that was remotely critical about the vaccines, shiga cancer, like super aggressive cancer and died.

**[1:59:05] Peter McCullough:** As a doctor, if you were to tell me there's a product, I'm a biopharmaceutical product that would cause heart damage and myocarditis and cardiac arrest and heart failure and blood clots. The spike protein is directly in the blood clots, and it would cause autoimmune problems because the body attacks itself because the spike protein is on the cell surfaces. And it causes neurologic problems like transverse myelitis and guillain-barre syndrome, of which all those four disease categories, for sure, the vaccines do.

**[1:59:38] Peter McCullough:** If you were to say, Listen, Dr. McCullough, just for kickers, it causes cancer. I'd say, come on, how can one product do all this? This is a mind-blowing reality. So a paper that caught my attention was by, um, was by, uh, uh, uh, Bustos, and it was published in Curious Journal of Biomedical Sciences, and it's titled The Multi-hit Hypothesis of Covid-19 Oncogenesis. That is how the vaccines can actually promote cancer, and it showed a variety of mechanisms.

**[2:00:13] Peter McCullough:** And, uh, Sutherland and Baylor, 1984, said, Listen, if something's gonna cause cancer, it's not by a single mechanism, it has to be by multiple mechanisms, meaning multiple things. So a good point is smoking, causing lung cancer. It's because there's 2,000 components to tar. The there's too many things together that can cause cancer. So it makes sense that, geez, the COVID vaccines, how could this happen? Well, the messenger RNA can impair DNA repair, cause it gets in, it kind of screws up the genetics.

**[2:00:50] Peter McCullough:** The, um, spike protein can interfere and does interfere with two major suppressor systems that actually help defend against cancer, p53 and BRCA. That we have a situation where now a paper by Cantazaro and Holcher has shown there's probably about three dozen mechanisms by which the scale has been tilted towards cancer. Thou this year, a paper by, um, uh, Elderi, who's at Brown, uh, Wafiq Elderi, very well respected oncologist, has analyzed this. There are sixty six peer-reviewed papers showing both the infection and the COVID vaccines probably tilt the human equation towards cancer.

**[2:01:37] Peter McCullough:** The vaccines far more, but just the infection alone. I'm greatly concerned. 2025 Joe Time Magazine on its cover has all these young people and says, Where's all this cancer coming from? Wait, a and and Katie Couric is out there on pot podcast, where's all this cancer coming from? They go out to cancer centers all over the United States. Time Magazine said, What do you think's going on? Cancer in certain areas, not all cancers, but some cancers are really skyrocketing.

**[2:02:06] Peter McCullough:** And the doctors say, well, they look around. Well, maybe it's cell phones, maybe it's microplastics, maybe it's something in the air, maybe it's. None of them considered the fact that we just went through a worldwide pandemic with a virus that was synthesized in a Chinese biosecurity lab, and that two thirds of the world had taken genetic vaccines. Not a single person they interviewed thought of that.

**[2:02:31] Joe Rogan:** No, I guarantee they've thought of it, they just didn't want to say it. This is it's it's They're still a mind-blowing averse to saying it.

**[2:02:37] Peter McCullough:** reality. Did you see the the Irish runner, uh, McGeehan, who just died? Oh, my Lord. Now, okay, 2024. She wins a world championship in the thousand meters. You know what it takes to as a woman to win a thou? She has to be perfectly healthy in 2024. Here we are 2026, you know, three quarters of the way through the year, and she's dead of colon cancer. aggressive. Unheard of Joe Biden, sitting president of the United States.

**[2:03:07] Peter McCullough:** Now, listen, his doctor is O'Connor, and I can tell you I'm in practice, I see patients every day. I'm an internist cardiologist. I examine men, I examine their genitalia, prostate exam, I order the test. I don't have a single patient in my practice in that tenure that has developed widespread metastatic Gleason grade nine prostate cancer. So here Joe Biden is in the White House, and it happens under the watch of everybody right there. He's publicly taken six vaccines.

**[2:03:36] Peter McCullough:** I think Joe Biden has COVID vaccine turbo cancer. He's a classic example. And on top of that, I think Joe Biden has a neurologic syndrome that looks like a vaccine syndrome. I mentioned

**[2:03:49] Joe Rogan:** Well, he's also had strokes.

**[2:03:51] Peter McCullough:** he's had subarachnoid hemorrhage, he's had craniotomies, he's had, so he's been kinda set up. But a paper by Ota and colleagues from Japan showed the messenger RNA is in the brain. It's physically in the blood vessels, in the brain. And and in my practice, Joe, which is I see, you know, hundreds, if not thousands, of patients who have problems after the vaccines. When they develop a syndrome, it's not classic. So when it's a neurodegenerative disorder, it's not classic Alzheimer's, and it's not classic Parkinson's, but a blend.

**[2:04:23] Peter McCullough:** And that's what Biden has. So he sh he shuffles his gait, he's kinda looking forward, he looks like he's gonna fall forward, but he doesn't have other features of it. It's not classic. And there's a paper by Rowe and colleagues from Korea, 8 million Koreans. They showed that these neurologic disorders, when they take off after the shots, they skyrocket within a few months. Not everybody gets them, but many of your listeners will will tell us that.

**[2:04:49] Peter McCullough:** Yeah, my loved one took a shot and they developed rapid dementia, or rapid Parkinson's, or Lewy body dementia, and and sadly, a lot of these are fatal. I I don't think Joe Biden has long to live.

**[2:05:01] Joe Rogan:** Well, he's old anyway. I mean, there's that. He, uh, is obviously not healthy. Um, I want to talk to you about SV40 and the instances of SV40 being found in samples of the vaccine.

**[2:05:17] Peter McCullough:** Multiple labs now, simian virus 40, uh, this is, and it's used to, by the way, to make vaccines. So we take, when you want to make Well, the virus a

**[2:05:27] Joe Rogan:** isn't used to make vaccines. well, yeah, Simian virus 40 is used to make vaccines.

**[2:05:31] Peter McCullough:** yeah, this is kinda how it works.

**[2:05:32] Joe Rogan:** It's the culture. It's like,

**[2:05:34] Peter McCullough:** I know, but you want to, okay, one wants to make a ton of messenger RNA, so this is how you do it. You take a DNA in plasmid, you take a DNA, a circular piece of DNA in e coli, and remember, the RNA is gonna anneal to the DNA and be the c complete reverse pattern of this. So if you take the DNA code for the spike protein and insert a promoter, SV40 promoter, SV40 enhancer, what's called the origin of insertion, and then antibiotic resistance genes.

**[2:06:10] Peter McCullough:** So so, um, that e coli that actually has the goods can survive, and you treat the rest of the e coli with antibiotics and kill them off. Now you've got a purified e coli colony that can crank massive amounts of DNA that code for the Pfizer Moderna messenger RNA, and that's how you can make it in high quantities. That's called process one. Process two. They were making it from scratch during the clinical trials. When they got to mass production, they said, Listen, we got to put this into e coli.

**[2:06:40] Joe Rogan:** That's very important, right? Because they made it very differently during the clinical Correct, trials than they did during mass production. And during mass production. So the simian virus 40 comes from primate kidney cells.

**[2:06:52] Peter McCullough:** right, and it is it, it's a, it's a oncogene activator, it's basically a cancer sequence. So, but one is going to make this crank. And and it was used actually, um, eh, the polio vaccine got contaminated with SV40 back. Actually, in the time as a kid that I probably received one of these shots as a kid, where this became a big deal with the polio vaccines. They were using SV40. The Institute of Medicine was called in, they did a big review.

**[2:07:20] Peter McCullough:** They said, Listen, you got to clean up the process, get SV40 out of polio vaccine manufacturing. They did, but the Institute of Medicine said, Listen, we can't know how many cancers, like in Dr. McCullough, later on are gonna be attributable to these shots. That was their final report. They said, we don't know.

**[2:07:36] Joe Rogan:** Is there an inst, uh, an increase in cancer post-polio vaccine?

**[2:07:41] Peter McCullough:** We don't know. We don't know. There's a great concern since, you know, a decent segment of the population received SV40 in these vaccines. Now, hopefully it was low enough dose and the body is hopefully edited this out. But with the COVID shots, when SV40 in multiple labs, David Speaker in, um, in, uh, Canada, and, um, Kevin McKernan in the United States and Schoenberg in Europe, multiple labs have said, Listen, Pfizer Moderna has SV40 in it, for sure, for sure.

**[2:08:12] Peter McCullough:** Uh, this was presented to Health Canada. Joe Ladapo, the surgeon general for Florida, wrote this up and presented it to our CDC and FDA, regulatory authorities all over the world. No, we don't have any concerns about this, no investigations, no inspections. Think about this. Not a single country has, as a government agency, opened up the vials and inspected them for SV40.

**[2:08:40] Joe Rogan:** That's crazy. That is absolutely insane.

**[2:08:45] Peter McCullough:** It's it's formally been brought to their attention. We're concerned that SV40 is one of these multi-hit mechanisms that has been summarized by Cantazaro, summarized by Angus and Bustos. I'm concerned. Listen, I've got family members who have taken this.

**[2:09:03] Joe Rogan:** So you you've laid out all these different factors, including SV40, and you think that is what should have been on the cover of Time Magazine when they were talking about all these people getting Correct. cancer.

**[2:09:13] Peter McCullough:** It should've said, Listen, we went through a pandemic, we were all exposed to the spike protein. By the way, how many of your friends never got COVID ever? Do you know anybody?

**[2:09:24] Joe Rogan:** Yeah, I know one lady. Okay, you know one, No, I know two. I know a guy who never got so you it as well. know two out of Yeah, and they weren't,

**[2:09:29] Peter McCullough:** 2,000.

**[2:09:29] Joe Rogan:** weren't vaccinated either.

**[2:09:30] Peter McCullough:** Uh, in my practice, I know one or two, but I've pushed artificial intelligence on this. I said, Listen, go to the county databases, go to the serology databases, go, go tell me how many people got COVID in the world. You know what the answer is? 97, so we almost all got it. We got exposed to this stuff, and it was the spike protein is devised in a Chinese biosecurity lab. We all got exposed to this. Couple important inferences.

**[2:09:58] Peter McCullough:** Can you imagine way back when in the Trump administration, if we had good forecasting and we said, Listen, everybody, we're all getting it. This thing's so damn contagious, we're all gonna get it. So the goal is to just get through it. If if we can avoid hospitalization and death, we win. Let's call in McCullough, Corey, Zelenko, uh, Bowden. Let's call in everybody and let's just treat people and get them through this. This will be over with in two years.

**[2:10:25] Peter McCullough:** Spanish flu was over with in two years. It was done. If we would've accurately forecasted this, that everyone was gonna get it, we never would've worn masks. Remember, masking is to try to prevent getting it. Remember lockdowns, that's to try to prevent getting it, hand sanitizers. All of this stuff was, uh, under the false narrative that you can avoid getting it. And again, Ashish Jha, Fauci, nobody's come back and said, you know what, we are wrong, by the way.

**[2:10:54] Peter McCullough:** All that contagion control was a waste of time. We blew trillions of dollars trying not to get COVID, and we all got it anyway. It it's it's a mind-blowing reality.

**[2:11:07] Joe Rogan:** well, uh, hindsight is 2020, though, right?

**[2:11:09] Peter McCullough:** That's true.

**[2:11:09] Joe Rogan:** And there was also this very distorted perception of what the dangers of the virus were going to be. It w it was listed by some people as high as 10% mortality. Yes, yeah, well, It get it got crazy it took in the beginning.

**[2:11:20] Peter McCullough:** a while to shake out. I initially, I remember a very frightening call. We had the National Institutes of Health and I was on one of the oversight panels for NIH for years. Where initially it was like, Oh, my Lord, you know, uh, we. We had a report, uh, in from I Italy, where doctors were dying of it, nurses were dying of it. And we were s uh, I, I. I came home and I told my wife, I said, Listen, uh, this could really be it.

**[2:11:42] Peter McCullough:** I mean, it, it was frightening until we sorted through it. Th. We also had a precedent that threw us off, and that was SARS 1. Remember, the first SARS virus, it didn't spread all over the world. It lasted about 90 days, and all this masking and locking down and contagion control kinda contained it. It was kinda contained. Remember, for other viral outbreaks like Ebola, some of the real fatal isn't there ones, an Ebola outbreak currently there is Democratic

**[2:12:08] Joe Rogan:** right now? Republic of Congo. But I think 5,000 people have died, 10,000 got it.

**[2:12:13] Peter McCullough:** right, but the principle is it's containable. It almost certainly won't be a worldwide thing.

**[2:12:18] Joe Rogan:** Why is that?

**[2:12:19] Peter McCullough:** Because the fact that it's so fatal and it's a contact virus, so it just simply hand hygiene, keep people separate. You know, 99 of people who get Ebola can't wash their hands after they use the toilet. It's spread from fecal-oral stuff that you know, and and so far, virtually everybody in that outbreak who gets to the hospital is saved. So you can save people with Ebola, they just need IV fluids and support. So the point is, viral outbreaks can be contained and people can avoid getting it.

**[2:12:51] Peter McCullough:** That was the first operating principle in 2020. A And then when this thing broke loose, it became more obvious over time we were all gonna get it. But I think the last time you and I met, it's very interesting. I was telling you how good natural immunity was, and I was citing the data. I'm probably the only person who comes on your show. I actually cite the papers with first author, I'm nailing it down, Cowan colleagues, um, uh, all the other papers that showed you couldn't get it twice.

**[2:13:18] Peter McCullough:** You and I met two days later on the border of Rwanda, a vaccinated traveler, uh, uh, gets COVID for the second time. It was two days after you and I met that it became known with the Omicron variant, you could get COVID twice. You could genuinely get it twice before that natural immunity held up for two years. Now you can get it over and over again.

**[2:13:44] Joe Rogan:** I got it a second time, but when I got it a second time, I literally, I had sniffles. That was it. I w I had a nurse that was testing everyone before the shows, so we would do a test, not a PCR test, by the way, um, which is important, so we should talk about that as well. Um, so we did, um, a test before the show, and um, I was joking around, cause I had a little bit of a sniffle.

**[2:14:09] Joe Rogan:** I had just gotten back from the gym and I said, hopefully I don't have COVID, just joking. And she's like, Oh my god, you tested positive. I'm like, no way, like this is COVID, this is crazy. Um, got some IV vitamins, went home, took the podcast day off, got tested the next day, I was negative. So I think it was on a Monday, so I might have had it on the weekend or something. I don't remember.

**[2:14:33] Joe Rogan:** I don't remember the details. Very but it shows fuzzy, but

**[2:14:35] Peter McCullough:** you how robust natural immunity is, right?

**[2:14:37] Joe Rogan:** yes, it was very quick. And by the way, I w I didn't feel bad at all. I literally just had sniffles and I was laughing, like, this is COVID. This is the second infection of COVID. Okay, I guess I have it, you know?

**[2:14:50] Peter McCullough:** Well, you know, natural immunity is cellular, it's antibody, it's IGG, IGA, natural killer cells. It's natural immunity is robust, and if you'd have your druthers on anything, you'd rather have natural immunity. of course, It's true for measles, it's true well, with COVID for all of was seven these.

**[2:15:06] Joe Rogan:** times more effective, right? So, um, the PCR test, um, you know, uh, I'm sure you've seen the video of Keri Mullis criticizing Fauci, saying he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, and that he's a bureaucrat and has no business telling people, you know. And this was, this was a long time ago. This was before COVID, you know, I think this was, uh, well, he died before COVID, um, but the false positives were through the roof, especially early on because they were running so many cycles of the PCR.

**[2:15:37] Joe Rogan:** Um, how much of that contributed, do you think, to the hysteria?

**[2:15:43] Peter McCullough:** Oh, tons. Uh, here we are. Podcaster is, eh, knows as much as a laboratory physician. I mean, everyone knows about the PCR test, even kids, are junior high kids and high school kids. Uh, polymerase chain reaction. So turns out that any one of the genetic sequence for any one of these thirty proteins in this little ball, the genetic sequence is known. So if one can identify a few little base pairs of a genetic sequence that's exposed, that one can create what's called a primer.

**[2:16:15] Peter McCullough:** So the PCR test uses four primers, uh, spike protein, envelope protein, nucleocapsid protein, and what's called origin insertion protein or a sequence. So these are not proteins, but these are, um, sequences, RNA sequences. So four primers, and you float it out there and say, Listen, see if these things, let's cycle it once, see if anything comes up, cycle it again, cycle it again. And you know, if you, i if you were to cycle it and it's turns positive on the second cycle, whoo, you probably got a real thing.

**[2:16:45] Peter McCullough:** And then four cycles, what have you? And the CDC was looking at this and said, Listen, no matter whatever you do, lab companies, don't go past 25 cycles, because if you do, this is CDC said this in their guidance. They say you're gonna generate a lot of false positives. People are picking up little, you know, the surfaces of an orange or off a or off a table, because you can just ultimately get false positives. So what did the companies do?

**[2:17:10] Peter McCullough:** They took it all the way up to, like, 45 cycles plus. So the vast majority of the PCR positive tests were false positive, and the best data come from the employee screening studies. So, uh, a good one to quote is in Japan Olympics. So if you screen everybody who's completely asymptomatic, you know, every day or every week, about one of people over time will generate positive, which is probably what you found on your show. 1% would be positive.

**[2:17:39] Peter McCullough:** Of those who are positive, 80 are false positive. So what I've said is, listen, because it can be a potentially fatal illness and it has consequences with employment and what have you. Once we got to PCR testing, uh, certainly low cycle threshold would be the way to go. But if we're not gonna do that, let's have confirmatory testing with antigen testing, like rapid antigen testing. Like with H. I.

**[2:17:59] Joe Rogan:** That's what we did.

**[2:18:00] Peter McCullough:** Yeah, with HIV, we don't rely on one test, we always have confirmatory testing. We use duality of testing. We should have done that with COVID. So the PCR test became this generator of false cases. This got reported, and what made it worse is the PCR test influenced attribution, uh, attribution of mortality. So what now that you know the the CDC definition of a COVID death is that if you were PCR positive at any time and then you died, it counted as a COVID death,

**[2:18:31] Joe Rogan:** Yeah, Elon was on the podcast saying that if you got bit by a shark and you tested positive for COVID, they listed it as a COVID death. Well, they also were financially compensated for COVID deaths. This was a problem.

**[2:18:43] Peter McCullough:** Well, it was the leading cause of hospitalization and the number one hospital reimbursement for two years, two years. So the hospitals quickly learned the game. They're they're in the money, making money like anybody else. They're in the game. And so they would do PCR testing, and of interest, many of them dropped influenza testing. So someone comes So they're doing in, forty cycles, forty five yeah, as I

**[2:19:09] Joe Rogan:** cycles of PCR testing. was, They're dropping the influenza testing and they're getting compensated for positive COVID results, more than 80 of which are false positives.

**[2:19:19] Peter McCullough:** and to make matters worse, Joe, some little old person who really has influenza, they would come in and get remdesivir.

**[2:19:26] Joe Rogan:** Oh God, oh God. Oh,

**[2:19:33] Peter McCullough:** Do you know, you know, influenza basically went away? I know, which is Th this is this is wild, wild, mind-blowing.

**[2:19:40] Joe Rogan:** wild, which is also impossible, actually impossible.

**[2:19:44] Peter McCullough:** So it had to be gaming of the PCR test, gaming of. And you know, there's an example of what's going on now today of gaming with the PCR test, and you know, the disease,

**[2:19:54] Joe Rogan:** what?

**[2:19:55] Peter McCullough:** it's measles.

**[2:19:56] Joe Rogan:** Really? They're using PCR tests for measles? How many cycles are they running?

**[2:20:00] Peter McCullough:** I don't know, but I can tell you Quest and LabCorp have gone bonkers with measles testing. Now, listen, a few years ago,

**[2:20:07] Joe Rogan:** Cause this is all because of a lot of anti-vax talk about measles well, and now and a lot now it's of barfing. Yeah, easy, now it's easy yeah,

**[2:20:13] Peter McCullough:** to ramp up the case count. So people are blaming RFK and Trump. Oh, there's a measles outbreak of interest. Guess what? There's a measles outbreak in the UK. Well, Trump and and RFK have nothing to do with what's going on in the UK. So testing is going through the roof. It turns out we've probably had viral exanthems, viral rashes forever, and they're probably been breakthrough cases of measles, are, you know, not of any clinical import. Now everyone's being tested, and I've looked at a few of the cases in Pennsylvania, and I'm enormously suspicious that Josh Shapiro, who is really taking aim at Trump and RFK.

**[2:20:47] Peter McCullough:** I think Josh Shapiro has basically given out the orders for the medical examiners to do measles PCR testing of deaths. So a couple of these deaths don't make any sense at all, where there's no rash, there's no, there's no pneumonitis, whatever, but their measles PCR, and they said, Oh, we've got a measles death. oh boy, S No, eh? So the gaming of the PCR and attribution of death is something we have to, you know, get a grip on.

**[2:21:16] Peter McCullough:** It's really bad.

**[2:21:17] Joe Rogan:** that's terrifying. It's just it's terrifying when there's financial incentives, the financial incentives that existed during COVID to list everything a COVID death, and that COVID infections that they were financially compensated for treating COVID infections, when, in fact, many of them were false positives.

**[2:21:38] Peter McCullough:** The and the amount of money we paid for these hospitalizations. Do you know that even in 2023, there was a paper in JAMA from Johns Hopkins of Omicron? Uh, uh, you know, if people ended up on the ventilator that late in the pandemic, you know, the mortality rate was still 40%, 40% ventilator mortality. You know, early in the pandemic, I was on some calls where people are talking about 90 ventilator mortality rate. So wait a minute, we've had six years of the pandemic.

**[2:22:10] Peter McCullough:** Hospitals and doctors have a lot of bravado. They want to be really good at heart disease and cancer and surgery. And have you ever seen those billboards where the doctors? They kind of look like you, Joe? They're all jacked, and they're wearing their scrubs, and they're like fighting disease. Have you seen these? A type of, you know, the these the the commercials for health care, you know, we're gonna, we're the best in Dallas Fort Worth, everyone is claiming to be the best.

**[2:22:33] Peter McCullough:** Do you know what a single hospital claims to be the best at COVID? Not a one. There's not a single hospital that said we're number one. We had the lowest mortality rate, the lowest ventilator use. Here's our innovative protocol.

**[2:22:46] Joe Rogan:** Isn't that crazy? This is wild, not That is crazy.

**[2:22:49] Peter McCullough:** a one. This was number. This was a cash cow. Nobody claims to be any good. I'm on a standing committee in the Arizona Senate and House, and they said, Dr. McCullough, how can we ever get ready for another pandemic? I said, call in your hospital CEOs and CMOs, and let's do comparative statistics, let's do lessons learned, let's do shared, um, learning about this comparative statistics. She said. They will not come in, they will not show up, they will not show up.

**[2:23:21] Peter McCullough:** They showed no innovation, they delivered. They just had a US Senate hearing on this. The care was horrible in the hospital, and they know it.

**[2:23:34] Joe Rogan:** Why are you depressing me?

**[2:23:38] Peter McCullough:** Well, we have, we have, listen, out of the pandemic, Joe, good things have happened. We formed the Wellness Company. Foster Colson, C E, or FO founder from Canada, Peter Galuli, our CEO. We've got a wonderful board. We got, you know, Drew Pinsky, Kelly, Victory, myself, um, Harvey Rish. We have formed a nationwide global company with our own pharmacies, our own compounding pharmacies, innovative products and solutions. We have emergency medical kits. We'll never get burned with COVID again, cause we have pre-prescribed medications that get out to people.

**[2:24:12] Peter McCullough:** We've got, um, ivermectin compounded, we've got ivermectin and benzazole, which is a wonderful story now for cancer.

**[2:24:19] Joe Rogan:** Has ivermectin lost its stigma?

**[2:24:23] Peter McCullough:** Oh, I think so, I think so. The pharmacies, if you go to CVS or Walgreens, they still won't fill it, but the compounding pharmacies are very good. Wellness company

**[2:24:32] Joe Rogan:** Isn't that crazy?

**[2:24:32] Peter McCullough:** we're multiple. The pharmacies still won't They still won't, prescribe it, they still won't.

**[2:24:35] Joe Rogan:** still won't make it.

**[2:24:36] Peter McCullough:** But wellness company, listen, we've got, um, we have the nation's Medicare care management contract for the senior citizens with Medicare, big Dallas, uh, office and operation. That's where I am right now.

**[2:24:47] Joe Rogan:** What if somebody gets something that they used to use ivermectin for before the pandemic, like yellow fever? Will they fulfill a prescription for that?

**[2:24:56] Peter McCullough:** Well, y, you could do any parasitic infection, like river blindness, for instance. But my experience is they will prescribe no, they will fill no ivermectin.

**[2:25:07] Joe Rogan:** that is literally crazy.

**[2:25:08] Peter McCullough:** That's the reason why we need the wellness company. We have pharmacies now, and, you know, we only use our green-listed, FDA-approved, um, original, uh, uh, phar pharmaceutical ingredients, the APIs, high quality. And I can tell you, the next pandemic, people aren't going to look at Fauci or Ja, or any of these people, they're going to go to innovative companies that are going to provide solutions, and Well, certainly we're ready to do it.

**[2:25:34] Joe Rogan:** Fauci, certainly Fauci, particularly after those last hearings, Remember, which was wild.

**[2:25:38] Peter McCullough:** remember, the government didn't treat anybody. The CDC has 12,000 employees, $9 billion annual budget. They didn't treat a single patient. They don't operate hospitals, they don't operate clinics, they don't dispense drugs. This is very important. That's the reason why out of the pandemic, we've had innovative solutions arise. You know, there there are now, uh, companies giving provisions. We have this, um, recent, uh, if you heard this American Fortress, uh, uh, warning about having 90 days of having water, food, having provisions.

**[2:26:16] Peter McCullough:** We now we have companies that can do the wellness company. We have medical solutions, you have Patriot Supply, you have all these other companies now. Solar Elon Musk and and his solar and, uh, cell phone service. People, now we actually have solutions, whereas years ago we didn't.

**[2:26:35] Joe Rogan:** Before we leave, I want to talk to you about the the personal cost that you, uh, endured when you spoke out and when you were, um, you know, essentially a dissident. When you were in the beginning of the COVID pandemic, you were the person that people pointed to and said, This is an example of misinformation. Like you said, you were accused of selling snake oil. Like, what was it like for your career? What was the impact?

**[2:27:09] Peter McCullough:** Well, let me tell you, I didn't have a stroke, I didn't have myocarditis. I'm healthy, I'm older than you, and I feel great. And so when you look at the people who lost their lives and the people who have been devastated by the infection or the vaccine, just the fact that we have our health, Joe, is so important. It's so much more, honestly, than our jobs. And I had put my whole life into medicine since age 17.

**[2:27:36] Peter McCullough:** But I s what I saw was so horrible and saw people suffering, you know, people died alone. They died alone. I saw things that were so bad I couldn't sit back and say, you know what, I'm gonna protect my career and let somebody else take the bullets. If I helped one person, it was worth it. One, that's the criteria. That's what a doctor does. We have a million doctors and half a million nurse practitioners that sat on the sidelines and let Americans get slaughtered.

**[2:28:16] Peter McCullough:** We had a handful of people who stepped forward. I wouldn't change a thing.

**[2:28:25] Joe Rogan:** But what happened to you? Like, what was

**[2:28:28] Peter McCullough:** Well, everything, everything. I was stripped of everything professorships, editorships, grants, advisory panels, consultancies, you name it. If they could, they would have just pinned me up to a cross. It's just it's so bad. And, you know, I have colleagues in Australia and Europe and the UK and Canada and South America. They did the same thing as me, they did the right thing. I think history will record

**[2:28:59] Joe Rogan:** I think it will as well. Have any of those things been restored that you were stripped of?

**[2:29:05] Peter McCullough:** out of these professional downturns, and there were lawsuits and money lost and and corruption and and gray things have been spawned. We spawned the the wellness company, you know, is which is heading towards skyrocketing for evaluation and IPO. We're gonna be enormously successful. Uh, we have New York Times best-selling books. Uh, you know, I, I'm in my fifth office in Dallas, but I'm thriving now, uh, you know, in a great environment. I'm the editor of a of a major journal.

**[2:29:38] Peter McCullough:** After losing two editorships, I've still yet to have an academic organization call me in for grand rounds, and my goal is to live long enough to get that call. 2019, I was a visiting professor in medicine and I lectured at Harvard in two divisions, two divisions. They all know me, they all know me at the Mayo Clinic, they know me at every major institution in the United States. And I have patients go to those institutions and they specifically bring up my na my name.

**[2:30:08] Peter McCullough:** They said, Yeah, we know, Dr. McCullough, not a single one of my former colleagues in academia will send even as much as an email or a text or a phone call. It is air-tight, it is airtight. And some of them have died, you know, our former chief of cardiology, when I was a division chief at William Beaumont in Detroit, David Haynes. We have an annual ski meeting. David just dies right there in the hotel. He had cardiac arrest.

**[2:30:40] Peter McCullough:** One of my colleagues at Baylor in Dallas, cardiologist my my age, Dr. Jimenez, he just dies of a cardiac arrest. It's happening, it's happening. We are seeing people die out from the pandemic. I predict that when we look back on this for a period of time, human longevity will be truncated due to the pandemic, both from the infection and from the vaccines. We're already seeing a fertility cliff. It's very important. Dr. Vivek Murthy, one of the most respected public health figures in Democra, has already published this.

**[2:31:14] Peter McCullough:** Fertility has fallen off a cliff after the first year of vaccination, both male and female fertility. I just told you, nine of Democratic senators have had premature stroke, 9%. Add in a few more. L Lauren Boobart, Colorado representative, has had blood clots surgically taken out of her legs. Was called May Turner syndrome, probably driven by the spike protein. Diane Feinstein dies of neuroinvasive, uh, varicella in her brain. That's a COVID vaccine injury syndrome, and the list goes on and on.

**[2:31:49] Peter McCullough:** All the athletes, all of our friends in the media, we see this happening, so we're gonna. Humanity took a hit. Two big waves, the infection and now the vaccines. Now we're gonna recover through the wellness company, things that you've done. Independent media is rocking right now because no one can trust mainstream media. They know they're not getting a straight story.

**[2:32:12] Joe Rogan:** absolutely. Um, another thing was the increase in all cause mortality, which, uh, insurance companies were posting about, and that was extraordinary. At one point, I think it was like 40 increase in all cause mortality for young people, which is nuts.

**[2:32:30] Peter McCullough:** it's a six-sigma event. These guys, these actuaries know the expected rates of death and all cause mortality for working age people skyrocketed. Great credit to Edward Dowd, who's a former, uh, you know, financial manager who studied this very carefully, John Bedwin, who's, uh, studied the death certificates and what's going on. There's people have all written books, the books will go down. There's dozens of books now that are very helpful to understand what's happened. But you're right, mortality has gone up.

**[2:33:01] Peter McCullough:** You know, what's really spooky is, uh, probably 10 or 15 years ago, we used to hear about people, politicians being concerned we're gonna run out of money for, uh, social security or Medicare. You never hear that anymore. No one brings it up.

**[2:33:19] Joe Rogan:** They don't.

**[2:33:21] Peter McCullough:** Have you heard anybody this this season worry about Social Security running out of money? I thought I have Fiscal responsibility? Well, fiscal responsibility is kinda gone out the window. But the the point is, y, you know, there is an actuarial loss now of people. Now, the baby boomers are, I'm the tail end of the baby boomers. Baby boomers are, um, 19, uh, gosh, what are they? 1960, uh, uh, 1946 to 1964. So I'm the tail end of the baby boomers.

**[2:33:52] Peter McCullough:** That big swell of the population now is all either older than me, sadly, some have passed away. So we're gonna see a big swell of the population pass away. It it is a reality, and things are gonna curtail. But we have to get control of fiscal responsibility, and these these numbers are very important to know. Our US. spend on our budget in 2004 was 2.2 trillion with a T. That's how much we spent in 2004. We got to 2019, we're at 4.4 trillion doubled.

**[2:34:20] Peter McCullough:** That's more than the time value of money doubled. We get to COVID under Trump administration, we go 4.4, 6.6 trillion overnight, overnight. That's a 50 increase in our budget. Money was just hemorrhaging all over the place. Now, um, now we're into Trump 2.0 big beautiful bill, which is a big spending bill as well. $7.7 1 trillion. Elon Musk, you've had him on your show. Elon tries to go to Washington. He sees waste, fraud, and abuse everywhere, and they couldn't wait to see him get out of Washington because he was gonna ruin the party.

**[2:34:58] Peter McCullough:** We're in an absolute spending orgy as a country right now, and we're borrowing from ourselves through treasury bonds. So when this whole party ends, it's gonna be sorry, American people. We know you liked your, uh, your 401ks, but the whole treasury bond system is going bust.

**[2:35:20] Joe Rogan:** on that note.

**[2:35:21] Peter McCullough:** So we have to do better. The point is we have to do better, and I think people are learning the truth. Let's hope that through elections, let's hope through people seeking, uh, truth, getting a whole variety of opinions, that we we take a better course. And I think the future is bright, but the the pandemic was, uh, certainly a six-year learning experience, and it's gonna go on for a few more years.

**[2:35:42] Joe Rogan:** Agreed. All right. Well, thank you, sir. It's great to see you again.

**[2:35:45] Peter McCullough:** Thank you.

**[2:35:46] Joe Rogan:** And, uh, thank you for all your courage. I really appreciate it and for y your ethics and your morals. And the you're a good man. Thank you. Bye, everybody.