# The AI agents in your wallet, with Mastercard CEO Michael Miebach

- **Show:** Masters of Scale
- **Published:** 13 Jan 2026
- **Source:** https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/prfx.byspotify.com/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/tracking.swap.fm/track/7G0M4p2bOLP0mP50O3CD/rss.art19.com/episodes/7fb0d152-f724-4c87-9257-42612bc133cb.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhlwb2RjYXN0Lm9wZW5uYXNoLmNvbQY6BkVU--4dcea1dd70768d62b2466884c2f8513b5f848fbf
- **Transcript:** https://podcasts.opennash.com/shows/masters-of-scale/the-ai-agents-in-your-wallet-with-mastercard-ceo-michael-miebach-bed14c/
- **Provider:** OpenNash Podcasts (machine-generated)

## In brief

Mastercard CEO Michael Miebach argues that a payments network stays valuable by making every payment safer, smarter and more flexible, whatever form it takes. He says new options such as buy now, pay later, stablecoins and AI shopping agents are choices to offer customers, not threats to ignore. Trust, built on security, data and standards, is what he says sets Mastercard apart.

The episode moves from a reassuring look at holiday spending to a warning about an arms race. Miebach says AI helps both the defenders against fraud and the fraudsters. He describes agent-driven shopping as an opportunity but not a dramatic upheaval. He closes with his mindset of 'constructive, competitive paranoia': welcome disruption, but never assume current success will last.

## Key insights

1. **Holiday spending grew about half from volume** Miebach said Mastercard saw 3.9% year-over-year holiday growth. About half came from price increases and half from real volume, so the consumer was still buying more, not just paying more.
2. **Mastercard plans in years, not weeks** Miebach said short-term economic swings are absorbed by the network, which was re-architected five years ago. Planning focuses on lasting shifts, such as young people's use of buy now, pay later, looking two to three years ahead.
3. **Tokenization aims to make checkout disappear** A token turns card data into a one-time code that works for a single transaction. Mastercard has committed that, starting in Europe, every transaction will be tokenized by 2030, and biometrics can travel with the token.
4. **Fraud defense now uses generative AI** Mastercard Threat Intelligence scans the internet and dark web for stolen card data and flags it to banks. Miebach said that in six months of market testing it took down 9,500 fake merchant sites and saved $150 million in fraud.
5. **Agent shopping needs identity and audit trails** Miebach said an AI buying agent must be verified as the agent it claims to be, and a consumer must be able to prove they never asked it to make a purchase. Mastercard Agent Pay addresses both, and he expects gradual change, not a total replacement of current payments.

## Questions this episode answers

### How did consumers behave in the latest holiday shopping season?

Miebach said spending grew 3.9% year over year, with apparel up 7.8% and shoppers starting early to find deals. He said about half the growth was price increases and half was real volume.

### What is tokenization and why does it matter for payment security?

Tokenization swaps your real card details for a one-time code that works only for that transaction. Miebach said it greatly improves security, and Mastercard has committed that every transaction will be tokenized by 2030, starting in Europe.

### Could AI shopping agents replace the way people pay today?

Miebach doesn't think so. He expects more choice and gradual change, not a total shift, and says agents must be verified and leave an audit trail so disputes can be settled.

### How is Mastercard using AI against fraud?

It uses generative AI in a tool called Mastercard Threat Intelligence to scan the web and dark web for stolen card data and alert banks. Miebach said it took down 9,500 fake merchant sites and saved $150 million in six months of testing.

### What does 'constructive competitive paranoia' mean?

It is Miebach's name for the mindset of leaning into big changes such as stablecoins and AI agents instead of relying on what already works. He said looking in the rearview mirror is the thing a company cannot afford to do.

## Facts

- **Michael Miebach** [0:03:04]: "we facilitate payments all around the world, so that that provides a really interesting data set, um, across all sectors, across all countries, 220 countries and territories."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:03:04]: "Uh, last year, we were about 160 billion transactions through our network, so it does provide quite a unique view."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:03:04]: "the uh past holiday season, 3.9% was the year over year growth."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:03:32]: "So apparel sales had a real moment, so 7.8% growth in apparel, um, really a stick out kind of category."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:04:51]: "you were to say, is that inflation? No, it's about half is price increases, so pretty tame."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:05:42]: "we five years ago, we rearchitected Mastercard's network."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:11:24]: "It took ten years for, uh, contactless to get what it is today."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:11:24]: "about two thirds of global transactions on our network are now contactless."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:11:53]: "So you take your card data and you turn it into a one-time code that can only be used for that transaction."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:12:24]: "we made a commitment that, uh, starting with Europe, that by twenty thirty, every transaction will be tokenized."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:16:53]: "through, um, a company that we've acquired in December 2024, Recorded Future, we scan the world out there"
- **Michael Miebach** [0:17:19]: "we've invested, I think, over the last, uh, six years, like $11 billion into our safety and security."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:17:19]: "There's predictions that when you look up to twenty thirty that, you know, it's about 15 trillion of fraud out there by twenty thirty."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:22:35]: "In the first six months of market testing, we have taken down 9,500 fake merchant sites."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:22:35]: "We saved $150 million in fraud."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:21:08]: "We have like 19 million rules that we apply to sanitize our data and then start to extract insights from that."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:19:33]: "And that's problem number one to be solved, which we have solved, is Mastercard agent pay."
- **Michael Miebach** [0:24:10]: "In Africa, most of, uh, financial services are driven through, uh, the phone companies and they those are our partners."
- **Bob Safian** [0:18:50]: "You've been working with OpenAI and Google and Cloudflare on agentic commerce standards."

## Transcript

**[0:00:01] Ad read:** The very best founders I know are brilliant at building systems. They connect teams, they remove bottlenecks, and they eliminate single points of failure. And yet, when it comes to their own wealth, most are running a disconnected stack. A tax accountant here and a state attorney there, a wealth manager who doesn't talk to either one of them. Creative planning was built to fix exactly that. One integrated team of tax professionals, estate planners, investment specialists, all coordinated by a dedicated wealth manager who sees your full financial picture and keeps every piece working together.

**[0:00:39] Ad read:** Proactive tax efficiency, estate strategy, investments, all under one roof. Creative planning where wealth works together. Learn more at creativeplanning dot com slash masters of scale.

**[0:00:53] Ad read:** AI is full of possibilities. Enterprises run on realities. That's why Pega combines the world's most powerful AI with the governance, transparency and control enterprises demand. So you can move faster, adapt faster, and scale AI with confidence. All the power of AI, none of the uncertainty. Learn more at Pega dot com slash ai.

**[0:01:20] Michael Miebach:** We were all there cheering, and said, This is a good thing. It's a discontinuity, and we're looking for discontinuities to provide more value in a fast-changing world. What we cannot do is look in a rearview mirror and say, hey, you know, what we have works, and it does. Uh, but I think there are many more choices coming. So constructive, competitive paranoia, I think, is the mindset we need to have. And then I think what is at stake is also an opportunity for us.

**[0:01:51] Bob Safian:** That's Michael Miebach, CEO of Mastercard, the global credit card and payments juggernaut. I wanted to talk to Michael to get his views on the recent holiday shopping season and what it indicates about consumer sentiment. I also wanted to ask about AI's impact on the security of financial transactions and what the role of credit cards might be in a crypto adjusted agentic commerce future. Michael, as it turns out, has been asking himself and his company many of the same questions as he looks ahead at 2026 and beyond.

**[0:02:24] Bob Safian:** So let's get to it. I'm Bob Saffian, and this is Rapid Response. I'm Bob Saffian. I'm here with Michael Miebach, CEO of Mastercard. Michael, thanks for being here.

**[0:02:42] Michael Miebach:** Delighted to be here with you, Bob.

**[0:02:44] Bob Safian:** You have a unique vantage point on on consumer activity at at so many payments run through your system from this past holiday season. Uh, uh, do you have yet any observations about consumer spending or customer sentiment, any sort of emerging trends or lessons you've seen yet?

**[0:03:04] Michael Miebach:** Right, you know, uh, when when you think about what we do is so we facilitate payments all around the world, so that that provides a really interesting data set, um, across all sectors, across all countries, 220 countries and territories. Uh, last year, we were about 160 billion transactions through our network, so it does provide quite a unique view. You know, that the uh past holiday season, 3.9% was the year over year growth.

**[0:03:32] Michael Miebach:** So, you know, that's that's a strong holiday season. You think political uncertainty, you think trade alignments and all these kind of things, but uh, the consumer held up well. You know, one one thing that I thought was striking is that apparel sales, so we see this by category, so we don't see individual, you know, Mastercard holder data, but the aggregate data of what are people buying and where are they buying it? So apparel sales had a real moment, so 7.8% growth in apparel, um, really a stick out kind of category.

**[0:04:04] Michael Miebach:** One other interesting thing, uh, that that I saw there in the data this particular season compared to last holiday season, consumers came in early. Probably, um, it's a continuation of what the consumer has done throughout 2025. I can look for a better deal, I can look for a promotion. So the, you know, the Black Friday was particularly strong, and then you look thereafter. So the savvy consumer is doing that, and so are businesses. Businesses were also worried about potentially sitting on inventory through that.

**[0:04:33] Michael Miebach:** So they're trying to, uh, you know, sell their inventory and put out offers earlier. So interesting to see what we're gonna see in 2026.

**[0:04:40] Bob Safian:** The word affordability, at least in the US, has become like this big buzzword, and it sounds like y- y- you sort of seeing that in some of the data that that's where people are are leaning.

**[0:04:51] Michael Miebach:** When you look at some of the, you know, post-tariff, certain prices have gone up, others have come down. But it's very interesting when you look at the 3.9% overall. Um, you know, you were to say, is that inflation? No, it's about half is price increases, so pretty tame. Um, and the other half is real volume increase where people were just still making investments into the things that they wanted to buy.

**[0:05:13] Bob Safian:** It's interesting. You must see data every day about sort of spending patterns and changes. I'm curious how that impacts your planning and strategy. Like I, I had a CEO on the show, out of the tech world recently, who said he's now, like, replanning every week, that even monthly is too late. Very different leadership perspective from, you know, three-year, five-year plans. Is your system different because of the speed of the feedback you get?

**[0:05:42] Michael Miebach:** You know, it's not. Um, we five years ago, we rearchitected Mastercard's network. We're in more and more countries around the world. We're facilitating more and more types of payments that might have been from an account to account are now happening on card rails or stablecoins or you name it. So we had to re-architect. From that perspective, that is not really changing our plans. What is changing our plans is if consumer behaviors and consumer choices are changing in more fundamental ways.

**[0:06:11] Michael Miebach:** Younger consumers like buy now, pay later. So, well, we gotta have that built into our system. Those are the kind of changes. They are not short-term changes. You know, this is ups and downs from the economy. We capture that, the system can handle that. But where are the payment trends going? Where do we invest to really understand where consumer all business paying payments are going? The payments need to be smarter, they need to be faster, they need to be safer, all those kind of things.

**[0:06:35] Michael Miebach:** That's where we're investing, but that's not from week on week. We look out, you know, two, three years, and then we, uh, you know, put those, make those technologies available for our customers, which are generally banks or large merchants or airlines. Those are our customers.

**[0:06:49] Bob Safian:** You mentioned buy now, pay later, a business like Klarna that went public last year. I is the credit card buy now, pay later, like, what what's the distinction? Why do people get so excited about it?

**[0:07:01] Michael Miebach:** You know, it's, um, it it's yet another payment choice out there. So payments have not been more competitive than they are today. So you can pay, you can pay in stable coins, you can have a push payment, you can have a prepaid payment, you can have a buy now, pay later. This goes straight to essentially a personal loan kind of equivalent. Um, so those are choices, and those are the choices that, uh, you know, if we see them amongst consumers or the customers of our customers, then we make them available.

**[0:07:26] Michael Miebach:** Um, you know, if you are a buy now, pay later, a pure play company, you're gonna find large merchants, large brands that are gonna have these offers on their websites and in their stores if they have physical stores. The way that we did it, we built it just as an offer into our network. So wherever Mastercard is available and one of our acquiring partners can offer at the checkout terminal in in an in-store environment, buy now, pay later.

**[0:07:51] Michael Miebach:** So JP Morgan or Galileo, our partners like that of us, they make that, uh, available. So the initial craze of buy now, pay later has died down a bit. I think it's a very credible choice. We offer it, and, you know, a lot of young people think this is a good idea, you know, because it gives you more planability of, uh, you know, of your interest payments and all that. We also think that, uh, you know, kind of loans on cards where you say, let's say you pay $500 on a card and you turn that into three payments, and you many banks just offer that, and it's not going into a buy now, pay later route, but it's

**[0:08:22] Michael Miebach:** the same outcome. So in the end, people want more control over their finances and more flexibility to buy bigger things that maybe cannot afford in the moment and different solutions to that. We're all about consumer choice and we make all of that available.

**[0:08:36] Bob Safian:** You're also, uh, a brand, I mean, and I and I'm curious how you think about distinguishing that brand going forward. You know, this this term, like, what's in your wallet has become ubiquitous. That's capital one, right? In some ways, your customers become your competitors, or h- how do you think about distinguishing yourself in that kind of a noisy, evolving market?

**[0:08:58] Michael Miebach:** So branding in our business, uh, that's it's about trust, uh, you know, so you're facilitating a payment transaction, so about somebody's money that it's hard-earned money. So what's gonna happen if something goes wrong? So if you see the two interlocking circles of our brand, you know, it's gonna work. It's always on, and if something goes wrong, I can complain. And if I didn't do that transactions and I prove it, you will get your money back. So that is what happens when you deal with Mastercard.

**[0:09:23] Michael Miebach:** So what's in your wallet is great, but what I personally prefer is priceless. Uh, you know, that's one of the most iconic, uh, advertising campaigns. We have invested in that a lot. You know, a bank is generally a local, rather local institute. You know, Capital One is mostly in the United States, but they have customers that travel around the world. So what do we bring? We bring access to, um, let's say, fast lane in, uh, in airports.

**[0:09:46] Michael Miebach:** How do you get into the, uh, leading restaurant in the city of your choice during your, um, Christmas holiday? Or how do you get into that, uh, Life Nation concert where all the tickets have been sold out? Those are all sponsorship partners of ours, so they're all, you know, part of our investment into our brand.

**[0:10:02] Bob Safian:** I'll sometimes ask, uh, a a a version of this question to, like, an auto company CEO about what they drive. Like, what cards do you carry around? Do you do you sometimes use a Visa or American Express to, like, test them out? Or, like, no, there I never I'm never gonna touch anything but having a Mastercard in my wallet.

**[0:10:19] Michael Miebach:** Yeah, Bob, if I if I had a wallet. So generally, it's all lives on my phone. That's the first thing. The key word you just used is test out. So I test out a lot of our own cards. So, you know, try this new program, try that new program. And how would I ever know how it feels as a consumer if I don't use competitor products? You just have to be careful when I pay with what, so people don't misinterpret me paying with another brand and saying, you know, you have an issue with that.

**[0:10:43] Michael Miebach:** No, it's really, I gotta know how it feels. And, uh, you know, I used to be our chief product officer, so I call our chief product officer and say, Hey, you know, I think there's something that we could do better or differently. Um, and I encourage, uh, my team to do the same thing. We gotta know what's going on.

**[0:10:59] Bob Safian:** You don't carry a wallet in the same way, and obviously we've had this drastic evolution from physical cards and checks and even cash to contactless tap and digital wallets. Is is this new standard, like, gonna stay, or do you think things will keep moving to things like biometrics or face scanning? I mean, I know you've talked about more personalized payments. I is that what you mean?

**[0:11:24] Michael Miebach:** Uh, that's not quite what I mean, but, you know, when when you think payments, uh, it's a constant evolution, so it's not gonna stay where it is. It took ten years for, uh, contactless to get what it is today. So you you tap with your phone, you tap with your card. It's about two thirds of global transactions on our network are now contactless. What is now a big driver for the next kind of, uh, experiences where checkout really becomes a non-issue, uh, it's just gonna disappear.

**[0:11:53] Michael Miebach:** So, uh, we put a lot of focus on making checkout a non-event. Um, and, uh, you know, an enabling technology for that is tokenization. So you take your card data and you turn it into a one-time code that can only be used for that transaction. That's securely shot between the different participants in the payment ecosystem, very safe. Now you can do the same thing with your biometric identity, you know, be your fingerprint or your facial. And that comes along with that transaction token, and anybody on the other side can see that is the transaction and it should go through.

**[0:12:24] Michael Miebach:** So it increases security dramatically. So we invented tokenization in the payment side, you know, uh, many years back, and it's now scaling. So we made a commitment that, uh, starting with Europe, that by twenty thirty, every transaction will be tokenized. On that basis, you can do really the checkout moment is just gonna really recede to the background.

**[0:12:44] Bob Safian:** More choice, more opportunities, easier and safer transactions. Michael paints a fairly rosy picture for the future, but he's also quite aware of the double-edged nature of progress, that AI and global markets and disruption require new perspectives and new vigilance. We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us.

**[0:13:10] Ad read:** When you've built substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position. The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious. Creative planning works with business owners to build a strategy around concentrated equity, when to diversify, how to manage tax risk, and how to protect what you've spent years building. Creative planning where wealth works together. Learn more at creativeplanning dot com slash masters of scale.

**[0:13:41] Ad read:** Global hiring is such a headache when you're building fast, but don't let payroll, compliance, or onboarding slow you down. Companies like Eleven Labs and Mistral are scaling globally and effortlessly with deal. Eleven Labs quadrupled their headcount in 2025, and Mistral pays 364 employees across fifteen countries, all from one system. Build your global team with deal. Visit deal dot com slash mos and start expanding your business today. That's d-e-e-l dot com slash mos.

**[0:14:17] Ad read:** Every business hits the same wall the moment your business outgrows the systems that got you here. Spreadsheets everywhere, five different logins, data scattered across entities that don't even talk to each other. If your finance team spends more time finding data than using it, that's when you need the Intuit ERP. Intuit Enterprise Suite is the AI-native ERP solution that's powerful, painless, and proven, built for businesses scaling fast without the complexity that usually comes with it. From the makers of QuickBooks, learn more at intuit dot com slash ERP.

**[0:14:57] Bob Safian:** Before the break, Mastercard's Michael Miebach shared insights about the 2025 holiday shopping season and what it'll take to differentiate a brand in 2026. Now we dig into AI's impact on the security of financial transactions, what he's doing to unlock new opportunities for Mastercard, and the lessons that people most miss about global markets. Let's jump back in. With AI, I wo- I worry sometimes that, you know, by doing a show like this, like someone can take my image and can deep fake me, and if my face is my access to my financial life, like, h- how how do we protect against that?

**[0:15:38] Michael Miebach:** First of all, I'm real, so that's good. This conversation is actually real. Um, you know, we, uh, we recognize there's an arms race going on, uh, you know, and AI is, you know, fueling the arms race. So there's those of us that defend the digital economy and then there's, uh, the hackers and the fraudsters. So tokenization is only one aspect, uh, of the arsenal of tools that we need to deploy. For example, um, you know, the speed with which you type on your device, um, uh, your device can tell if this is a left hand or right hand, uh, and, uh, let's say the fraudster, uh, typed with a different speed, a different pressure, um, and is recognized.

**[0:16:21] Michael Miebach:** Well, that's not cannot be the same person. Then there's location data. Well, you you're actually in another place because you just did a transaction over here somewhere. This transaction's come where somewhere else, or it's completely out of your buying pattern, and that would also be different. So there's multi-layered security. Where the journey is really going is to leverage generative AI for cybersecurity and and fraud prevention is where you start to predict what is the most likely next fraudulent card number or the the next card number that will be befrauded.

**[0:16:53] Michael Miebach:** Let's say your card, uh, details for whatever reason, you've stored them with some merchant a few years back, you have even forgotten that, and that merchant is hacked. Those kind of scenarios happen all the time. So what we do through, um, a company that we've acquired in December 2024, Recorded Future, we scan the world out there, um, and all the the corners of the internet and dark web to see where is there, you know, fraudulent card data that's out there.

**[0:17:19] Michael Miebach:** And then, uh, we flag that to your bank. So both sides are arming up, um, and we've invested, I think, over the last, uh, six years, like $11 billion into our safety and security. So this is a big topic to stay ahead of the game. There's predictions that when you look up to twenty thirty that, you know, it's about 15 trillion of fraud out there by twenty thirty. If it were a country, uh, you know, internet fraud, and that would be the third largest country in the world.

**[0:17:47] Michael Miebach:** So there's a lot going on. Um, it's a big part of our business, and it's a big part of us saying that we, uh, we're promoting trust and payments, uh, across all types of payments because we're investing into that.

**[0:18:00] Bob Safian:** Yeah, no, it's it's, uh, you know, AI is a is a great tool for identifying potential fraud, and it's also a great tool for perpetrating fraud. And it's a it's an ongoing battle. We're not really sure where that's gonna net out.

**[0:18:14] Michael Miebach:** Somebody comes out with the latest cool technology, but it's just cool and not safe. You know, that is what, uh, standards are designed to do. So we're partnering with Googles and others to do exactly that. In a world of, you know, uh, agents, uh, doing payments on behalf of people in an AI world, you know? So you got the next kind of open flank if you don't put in standards early. So collaboration is really important amongst the industry, but also then with the regulator, so that safety and security is recognized by regulators in a way that doesn't stifle innovation.

**[0:18:46] Michael Miebach:** And, uh, that's where we spend a lot of time with regulators and governments around the world on the same thing.

**[0:18:50] Bob Safian:** You've been working with OpenAI and Google and Cloudflare on agentic commerce standards. I is is this vision of AI agents doing buying for us, like, is this a is this a near-term reality, or do we still have a a a long way to go before that that can come to fruition in any substantial way?

**[0:19:10] Michael Miebach:** That's a great question. I don't, I don't know the answer to that, um, but I can tell you a lot of people are going for it right now. Um, the question is, will this be a, you know, zero-sum game? I this is now the only thing I'm gonna do. Most likely not, because we've not seen these complete changes with new technology emerging. I think it's more choice. I think we see gradual change, uh, but we will not see gradual change.

**[0:19:33] Michael Miebach:** If, you know, you deal with an agent and that agent is not an accredited agent that is known and understood in the payment network, as in, that is actually the agent that it claims. Um, and that's problem number one to be solved, which we have solved, is Mastercard agent pay. Uh, the other problem to be solved is what happens if something goes wrong. How do you sh- how do you say, well, actually, I never asked the agent to buy this?

**[0:19:56] Michael Miebach:** Um, how do you prove that? So there's an audit trail there. There's a lot of technology behind it to do the same thing that happens in payments today, where you could just say, well, I never did that. So we're just doing that. And I think, uh, with, uh, where where we are on that, it is now following the same standards. So this is kind of live now. Um, then, um, we have some real opportunity in here that might be a significant change.

**[0:20:20] Michael Miebach:** I think. Agentic commerce and agent driven purchases on behalf of a consumer can also level the playing field in terms of competition on the merchant side. So our small business, um, can now compete in a very different way because the agent looks at everything that's out there. Joe's Travel Shop somewhere they can compete, and because they are recognized, participate in the ecosystem, they will be on a level, uh, level playing field. So I find that exciting thought.

**[0:20:46] Michael Miebach:** More choice for consumers, more competition, um, a chance for small business. I think that that has a lot going for it. So maybe we see some shifts, but I don't think a dramatic change.

**[0:20:56] Bob Safian:** As you look at how AI will impact your business, how much do you think about sort of what you build yourselves versus what you would acquire or partner to use?

**[0:21:08] Michael Miebach:** So, um, you know, what sets us apart, um, in a world of AI, or what sets anybody apart in the world of AI, is is your data set models. So all those kind of things are gonna commoditize over time, but, uh, the data that you have is absolutely central. And that's how we started our conversation, talking about our data. It's non-personalized data, but it's global data, it's high-frequency data, high-quality data. We have like 19 million rules that we apply to sanitize our data and then start to extract insights from that.

**[0:21:40] Michael Miebach:** Now, um, that puts us in a really good position in the world of AI. So, you know, when it comes to building agents, do I see ourselves in the business of building agents? No, that's really, anyway, not our business as a network. We're an AI company because we, uh, have a lot of data and we use that data to drive better insights and drive more value.

**[0:21:59] Bob Safian:** I do hear from some folks that, like, there's a push to sort of integrate this, but they don't necessarily see the value from it yet commensurate to what they have to invest in it.

**[0:22:08] Michael Miebach:** I think most, you most company leaders you would talk to, everybody's trying to make their own operation more efficient, you know, in customer service and so forth. We do the same, and we sense see some good value there. I find it's more interesting when you apply it on the product set and what are we selling and how are we driving value for others. Um, let's go back to the cybersecurity side of things. So we're leveraging generative AI there to scan what is out there, predict the next fraud.

**[0:22:35] Michael Miebach:** This particular solution is called Mastercard Threat Intelligence. In the first six months of market testing, we have taken down 9,500 fake merchant sites. We saved $150 million in fraud. Now that's real value. That is not real value would have been able to create with machine learning and additional rules based, you know, artificial intelligence. So this is gen AI at work, next generation. Um, so there is real value there, but is it, you know, it's gonna transform the world because we're looking at, you know, uh, you know, AGI.

**[0:23:09] Michael Miebach:** That's not that. It's very specific use cases that make a lot of sense and drive value right now, and that's actually where our focus is.

**[0:23:16] Bob Safian:** You mentioned the the global nature of MasterCard's business. You operate a all over the world. You personally worked in Africa and the Middle East. Uh, I I know, um, business media tends to be quite US-centric, and I'm curious what you think is being overlooked. Are consumers the same or different in different places, like, what what lessons have you learned about the global consumer, or is if there's a global consumer?

**[0:23:44] Michael Miebach:** You know, there, there, there are things that are commonly true. People want safety, security, but then the circumstances are very different. If you go to an emerging market into a rural area, uh, what means an easy payment? Uh, if it's on a feature phone versus a smartphone, that's a whole different. And, you know, just engagement. Um, there might not be a bit bank available, so you're actually doing this through your phone company, circumstances, infrastructure, all that is very different.

**[0:24:10] Michael Miebach:** In Africa, most of, uh, financial services are driven through, uh, the phone companies and they those are our partners. There are no limitations through legacy technology. In some of these markets, you just think of things in a very different way because you're not held back by legacy technology. Build something brand new, which we then export, um, and say, this is actually great. Um, so we're gonna take that to other parts of the world. Uh, the the leapfrogging idea out of emerging markets, and I think that is overlooked to to your question.

**[0:24:40] Michael Miebach:** Back to the arms race, the fraudsters and hackers don't care about borders, they don't care about countries. So if we have a world of digital islands where every, you know, different governments do their own thing and they don't agree that cybersecurity is an issue that needs common tackling, then we're gonna have a problem. I think that is overlooked.

**[0:24:59] Bob Safian:** Given all these different pieces that are moving around and and and what you're managing and looking at, what's at stake for Mastercard right now?

**[0:25:08] Michael Miebach:** If you look at the tectonic shifts, um, in the world, that provides, uh, certainly when it comes to technology and payments, some, you know, interesting discontinuities. Agentic commerce, for example. Suddenly there's this additional entity, the agent, which is run by some company, potentially, you know, there's like the large LLM companies. So that's an opportunity for us to engage in a very different way and, you know, create a lot more value for our shareholders and for Mastercard by engaging upfront, being proactive, leaning in.

**[0:25:43] Michael Miebach:** Stable coins is another, and discontinuity. So I think our mindset of we will always lean in, it's always providing choice, uh, is the right mindset. We just have to do it and have to be out there and have to be out there fast. When the Genius Act, uh, you know, was signed, uh, last year, we were all there cheering and said, This is a good thing. It's a discontinuity, and we're looking for discontinuities to provide more value in a fast-changing world.

**[0:26:08] Michael Miebach:** What we cannot do is look in a rearview mirror and say, hey, you know, what we have works, and it does. Uh, but I think there are many more choices coming. So, you know, constructive, competitive paranoia, I think, is the mindset we need to have. And then I think what is at stake is also an opportunity for us.

**[0:26:28] Bob Safian:** Well, Michael, this was great. Thanks so much for chatting with us.

**[0:26:31] Michael Miebach:** Well, thanks, Bob. Uh, I appreciated the conversation.

**[0:26:37] Bob Safian:** I wanna double-click on the phrase Michael uses at the end of our discussion, constructive competitive paranoia. It's a compelling concept, especially for a world facing so much transition. To turn discontinuity into opportunity, we need a mindset that keeps us on our toes and also open to new ideas. That openness is the constructive piece, which is so critical. I also have to tip my hat to Michael for acknowledging that he uses competing products to test them out.

**[0:27:09] Bob Safian:** The fact that he's wary about being seen doing so reflects the unforgiving nature of our media ecosystem. But in this arena, as in so many business activities, a little bravery is worth the risk. I'm Bob Saffian. Thanks for listening.

**[0:27:33] Ad read:** When you are ready to incorporate your business, Stripe is ready for what's next with Stripe Atlas. Start your company with incorporation, founder equity setup, and startup legal documents, all in one guided process. And once your company is formed, which for most people happens in just one day, you're ready to begin accepting payments on day one. More than one in four new Delaware corporations is formed with Stripe Atlas. Learn more at stripe dot com slash atlas.

**[0:28:07] Speaker 7:** Humans will never be more intelligent than AI.

**[0:28:10] Speaker 5:** There's gonna be two types of companies, those who are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't.

**[0:28:15] Speaker 6:** How do we build a future that is human-centered?

**[0:28:20] Ad read:** I'm Rana El-Kaouiibi, and on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future, and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find Pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

**[0:28:49] Bob Safian:** Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday, we release a second rapid response exclusively in the rapid response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely, from Ford's CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about ten seconds to find. Just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode.

**[0:29:23] Bob Safian:** I hope to see you there. Rapid Response is a Wait What original. I'm Bob Saffian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashumaku Tonina. Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holliday. Our head of podcasts is Lital Malad. For more, visit Rapid Response show dot com.