# AI for Process, People for Heart: GoFundMe’s Tim Cadogan - **Show:** Me, Myself, and AI - **Published:** 29 Sep 2026 - **Source:** https://sloanreview.mit.edu/audio-series/me-myself-and-ai/ - **Transcript:** https://podcasts.opennash.com/shows/me-myself-and-ai/ai-for-process-people-for-heart-gofundmes-tim-cadogan-8ac3a1/ - **Provider:** OpenNash Podcasts (machine-generated) ## In brief GoFundMe CEO Tim Cadogan argues that AI is most useful when it helps people do something hard that they have never done before, such as asking strangers and friends for money. The company's AI fundraising coach applies patterns learned from tens of millions of fundraisers to each newcomer. In his view, the AI handles the process while people supply the emotion. The central tension is between scale and authenticity. Host Sam Ransbotham worries that AI will make every fundraiser sound the same or nudge people to exaggerate. Cadogan answers that real crises need no embellishment, and that the coach asks questions so the user's own story comes out. He backs this with behavioural data and surveys, then looks ahead to voice and donor coaching. ## Key insights 1. **AI fills the gap of first-time experience** Asking for help is something most people do rarely, so they cannot practise. GoFundMe's coach gives a newcomer the pattern knowledge from tens of millions of earlier fundraisers. 2. **Human staff could never serve GoFundMe's volume** Cadogan says more than 10,000 people start a GoFundMe each day, and the small team that used to assist customers was never enough. That scale gap is what made an AI assistant worth building. 3. **Coaching works through questions, not invented text** In a sampled interaction, the AI asked thoughtful questions that helped a grieving woman tell her friend's story in her own words. Cadogan says this keeps the story truthful instead of exaggerated. 4. **Results are measured on behaviour, outcomes and feelings** Cadogan reports 10% more sharing among coach users, an estimated 125 million in extra help this year, and 65 to 75% of surveyed users feeling more confident, less stressed and less alone. The first two come from platform data; the feelings come from surveys. 5. **Next goals are voice, full agent help, and habit-building** Cadogan wants the coach to guide users through the whole process, including receiving the money, and to add voice. He also wants it to prompt donors, aiming to reverse the decline in philanthropic participation. ## Questions this episode answers ### What does GoFundMe's AI fundraising coach actually do? Cadogan says it helps users draft their story, write a title, choose images and set a goal, then suggests ways to share the fundraiser. It can also auto-create a short video, and the user stays in charge of every choice. ### Will AI make every GoFundMe campaign sound the same? Sam Ransbotham raised this worry, and Cadogan said it won't happen because the heart of GoFundMe is human connection. In his words, the AI helps with the process while the people bring the heart. ### How does GoFundMe stop AI from exaggerating someone's story? Cadogan says people in crisis need no exaggeration, and the company samples (anonymized) conversations to check how the coach behaves. In the example he gave, the AI asked questions that drew out the user's own words about her friend's loss. ### How does the company know the coach is working? Cadogan says GoFundMe looks at behaviours such as sharing, outcomes such as more donations, and how people feel. Behaviours and outcomes come directly from platform data, while feelings come from user surveys. ### Why does Cadogan want to use the coach for donors too? He says philanthropic participation in America has fallen from about two thirds of households to the forties in percent. He sees AI suggestions as a way to build the habit of helping among more people, especially Gen Z. ## Facts - **Sam Ransbotham** [0:01:06]: "People have raised more than $40 billion on it." - **Sam Ransbotham** [0:00:25]: "I'm Sam Ransbotham, professor of analytics at Boston College. I've been researching data analytics and AI at MITSMR since 2014" - **Tim Cadogan** [0:01:48]: "for example, American Cancer Society has had over 100,000 people do fundraisers in the last year to raise money for ACS." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:04:20]: "I live in the part of LA called Altadena that mainly burnt down a year and a half ago." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:05:20]: "we have more than 10,000 people a day starting a GoFundMe, and there's just not enough people to do that." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:05:49]: "I actually had a conversation with Mustafa Solomon back, like in 2022, when he was doing inflection AI." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:06:18]: "But then early this year, we unified that into the smart fundraising coach, which kind of puts it all together." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:06:18]: "The first choice is, do you want to use a smart fundraising coach? It is an AI-powered assistant, or do you want to do it in the traditional way?" - **Tim Cadogan** [0:07:12]: "we encourage people to convey their ultimate goal, but then start the fundraiser lower, build momentum and then grow it over time." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:07:43]: "Because the one on one relationship is so much more powerful than blasting it out on Facebook or Instagram." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:08:13]: "We can now, with the coach auto-create a video for you." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:16:56]: "We now see 10% more people when you're using the coach, they're sharing." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:16:56]: "We estimate this year alone, we'll see about 125 million more help generated for people, which is a massive number." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:17:27]: "Sixty five to 75% feel more confident, less stressed, and critically, less alone." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:18:32]: "We can essentially link back attention and support to every action." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:21:05]: "we operate in twenty countries, but we have people from almost every country have supported each other." - **Tim Cadogan** [0:21:45]: "our ambition is that that coach helps you through that whole process in a fully agentic way that gets smarter and smarter" - **Tim Cadogan** [0:23:23]: "Philanthropic participation in America has been declining. So the percent of households used to be about two thirds, and it's now in the forties." - **Sam Ransbotham** [0:23:57]: "We have a civilization when you find people with broken bones who have died, not from the broken bone, because it it meant that the society helped them." ## Transcript **[0:00:02] Narrator:** Asking for help can be one of the hardest things we do, especially when we are navigating a crisis or an unfamiliar situation. Today's guest leads an organization using AI to make that first step easier, helping people share their stories, reach their communities, and unlock our human instinct to help one another. **[0:00:19] Tim Cadogan:** Hi, I'm Tim Cadogan and you are listening to me, myself and AI. **[0:00:25] Sam Ransbotham:** Welcome to Me, Myself and AI, a podcast from MIT Sloan Management Review, exploring the future of artificial intelligence. I'm Sam Ransbotham, professor of analytics at Boston College. I've been researching data analytics and AI at MITSMR since 2014, with research articles, annual industry reports, case studies, and now thirteen seasons of podcast episodes. In each episode, corporate leaders, cutting edge researchers and AI policymakers join us to break down what separates AI hype from AI success. My guest today is Tim Cadogan, the CEO of GoFundMe. **[0:01:06] Sam Ransbotham:** GoFundMe is an online fundraising platform people use to raise money for themselves, for each other, and for causes they care about. People have raised more than $40 billion on it. Tim came to GoFundMe from the advertising world, and he's making an argument you don't hear very often. That asking for help is something that most people do only once, and it's difficult, but they have no chance to practice. GoFundMe can hand that first-timer the hard-won experience of the millions of people who've done it before. **[0:01:35] Sam Ransbotham:** And I think that's interesting. Tim, thanks for being here. **[0:01:38] Tim Cadogan:** Hey Sam, thank you very much for having me on the show. It's a real pleasure to be here. **[0:01:42] Sam Ransbotham:** Tell us a little bit about GoFundMe, what you're excited about, and particularly what you're using artificial intelligence for. **[0:01:48] Tim Cadogan:** Sure, very simply, we're here to help people help each other. And it turns out that help is a very important part of all of our lives. We see a lot of people fundraising for charities, for nonprofits. One of the newer things we've been encouraging a lot is what we call community fundraising. So, you know, for example, American Cancer Society has had over 100,000 people do fundraisers in the last year to raise money for ACS. **[0:02:15] Tim Cadogan:** And they've done walks, they've done rides, they've done swims. Some of my favorites are community oriented. We see a lot of community gardens, we see a lot of bookshops, particularly local bookshops. And so what we're trying to do is make it easier to ask for help. And we found a way to use AI to help us do that and look forward to kind of delving into that more. But that that's one of our main investments is how do we use this technology that can leverage the patterns of information behavior that we've seen over tens of millions of fundraisers and put that in the hands of the next person who comes in, you know, an hour from now and says, I'm **[0:03:02] Tim Cadogan:** not quite sure what to do. I'd like to do this, but I'm nervous. I'm anxious. Can you help me? **[0:03:08] Sam Ransbotham:** Okay, well, let's let's go through the details of that. Like, you've got the smart fundraising coach, someone sitting there overwhelmed, not sure where to start. What happens next? **[0:03:19] Tim Cadogan:** Well, let's talk a bit about the situation that someone finds themself in. So, very often we ask for help when we have a need, and that need is often something quite significant in our lives, which mean that we're stressed, right? It could be that you're ill, it could be that your relative is ill, or a friend is facing a difficult situation. It can be a wonderful situation too, but often when people start thinking about asking for help, it's something hard. **[0:03:50] Tim Cadogan:** So there's a lot of emotion around that already. And then fundraising, asking for help, is not familiar to most people. It's not something that we do regularly, and there are a lot of decisions to be made. I have a situation I wanna tell people about. How do I tell that story? How do I summarize that story? That's called a title of a fundraiser. What images do I use to convey what I'm about and what the situation is about? **[0:04:20] Tim Cadogan:** What goal do I set? How much money should I ask for? And so on. So you have a situation of really emotionally significant moment. You have stress, and you have decisions that you haven't had to make before, all in front of you. That is the situation of a fundraiser. And I'll just share with you, like, I have some direct experience with this, cause I live in Los Angeles. I live in the part of LA called Altadena that mainly burnt down a year and a half ago. **[0:04:52] Tim Cadogan:** And while somehow our homes survived, we evacuated, we were out for months, but most of my friends lost their homes. And we helped, of course, with some fundraisers. So just to live through that situation, feel that stress oneself. And I'm sure a lot of people listening have been in stressful situations. Things happen like you don't think as clearly. Your short-term memory is affected. I can remember if I had three things to do, I had to write them down. **[0:05:20] Tim Cadogan:** I couldn't even remember three things for a few weeks. That's what people are going through. So how do we use technology to help you through that situation, to open that door, to ask for help? What we had prior to using the coach is we had a small group of people who could assist our customers, but they were never enough. Because we have more than 10,000 people a day starting a GoFundMe, and there's just not enough people to do that. **[0:05:49] Tim Cadogan:** So what we realized, and I probably first realized this, I actually had a conversation with Mustafa Solomon back, like in 2022, when he was doing inflection AI. And I started getting a grip of, like, what this might mean. And he was working, I essentially on sort of assistance, right? It was like, hang on a minute. What if we could create an AI-powered assistant to help all these people who are trying to get help on GoFundMe? **[0:06:18] Tim Cadogan:** That germ of idea turned into the AI coach. Where we started is we started helping with various components. So we would help people with titles, we'd help them with the goal. But then early this year, we unified that into the smart fundraising coach, which kind of puts it all together. So what happens is you come to GoFundMe and you have a choice. The first choice is, do you want to use a smart fundraising coach? It is an AI-powered assistant, or do you want to do it in the traditional way? **[0:06:47] Tim Cadogan:** And the coach will interact with you to create that fundraiser, to take your words and to help you draft that story, to craft a title, and then to help with the image selection. And then near the end of the process, to pick the goal, which is one of the things where people really struggle. It's like, oof, what should I do here? I know I need $8,000, but that seems like a lot. Should I start lower? **[0:07:12] Tim Cadogan:** What actually it turns out is most of the time we encourage people to convey their ultimate goal, but then start the fundraiser lower, build momentum and then grow it over time. And with the smart goal technology, we can help you do that automatically. So that's phase one, that's creating the fundraiser. Then you move into the second phase, which we call manage, which is how do you make it successful? And here's where the interaction changes a little bit. **[0:07:43] Tim Cadogan:** We then make suggestions like, okay, the, for example, the most important thing you need to do is you've got to share this in the wider world. One of the best ways of doing that is texting one on one as many friends and family as you think can step up and help you. Because the one on one relationship is so much more powerful than blasting it out on Facebook or Instagram. And start small, start with five, ten, fifteen people. **[0:08:13] Tim Cadogan:** That gives you the probability of at least some of them giving you a donation and you beginning to get some momentum. And once you have momentum, then you can put it out into the wider world. There's a whole series of other layers as well, which is like share prompts. So maybe you're on two or three or four different social media platforms. They're all different, they all have different syntax, some are videos, some are not. We can now, with the coach auto-create a video for you. **[0:08:42] Tim Cadogan:** A quick snippet of your images, a quick, very short ten, fifteen seconds. You're trying to reduce the cognitive load at the same time as keeping the user is completely in charge. So it's all suggested. **[0:08:55] Sam Ransbotham:** One of the things that strikes me, though, it makes sense. You've got a ton of data, you can see what works, you can see what doesn't work. You know, it's not hard to fast forward and think that, okay, a year from now, every single GoFundMe pitch seems exactly the same. What keeps us out of that? Hey, this is gonna homogenize. **[0:09:14] Tim Cadogan:** Well, that doesn't work. It doesn't work because at the heart of GoFundMe is human connection. Like we help each other, we give to each other because of what we feel. We don't, uh, get anything back, right? It's not a transaction, it's not commerce, it's not business. Most often, it is about love and care and feeling, and that comes from knowing someone's reality. So that's why the AI helps with the process, but the people bring the heart, and the heart is is it. **[0:09:51] Sam Ransbotham:** I guess, as I think about that, maybe I shift a little dark here. I have this experience, we all have experiences with gen AI. That that tends to make up some things that may be pulling at the edges of the truth a bit. You know, I can see that this might be a danger in this platform. That, hey, well, if we exaggerate this story by make it sound twice as bad or three times as bad, you're gonna increase the chances of funding, but it loses its truth, or it divorces from the the case. **[0:10:23] Sam Ransbotham:** What kind of guidance can you give people to both help them present their story better, but also make sure that it's still their story? **[0:10:31] Tim Cadogan:** I'll give you an example. One of the things we do to make sure that everything's working is we do sample reviews of interactions. And, you know, people are dealing with very difficult situations that frankly need no exaggeration. This was a woman who her best friend's son had just passed shortly after her husband had died. And the best friend was trying to communicate this, and unsurprisingly, was struggling to find a way to communicate the gravity of what was going on and and how much they needed help. **[0:11:11] Tim Cadogan:** And and her friend did not even have the money for the burial in this case. And what you can see in that interaction, obviously it was anonymized, but we can see how the agent was asking thoughtful questions back, and through that interaction, helped her communicate what was important about this. What she wanted to say about her friend, what she wanted to say about her son, what she wanted to say about the situation and how much help right now would mean, and helped her convey that. **[0:11:46] Tim Cadogan:** And without that interaction, I doubt that she would have been able to get through that process. So that that is kind of what we're talking about. And so I think it goes back to how do we give people the ability to access the love and care and support and help that is out there. **[0:12:07] Sam Ransbotham:** Yeah, as you're saying this, I was thinking about, uh, we talked with Josh Wein at CVS about how they're using trying to put clinical language into something that humans can actually understand. It seems like there's an analogy here where you're trying to help people communicate something that exists and making that connection. And you've kinda got this thing, but in a in more of an emotional side, that it's helping two people communicate with each other to find that common ground. **[0:12:35] Sam Ransbotham:** And like you say, at that in that emotional moment, people may be struggling to understand how others might read or understand or perceive what they're trying to communicate. **[0:12:45] Tim Cadogan:** That's right. I mean, we know from tremendous amount of pattern recognition, you mentioned 40 billion raised, right? We've seen a lot. Some simple things work, like when you run a fundraiser, saying who you are, saying what you're raising for, whether that be you or a friend or a charity, which we see a lot of, by the way. And how the money and the support is gonna make a difference and sort of what happens next. And that structure is very simple, but it's not intuitive, especially to someone in these kinds of situations for the first time. **[0:13:22] Sam Ransbotham:** What you've hit on here is AI helping someone in their first moment to do something that they can't practice for. Where else would that apply? **[0:13:33] Tim Cadogan:** Well, I mean, think of a lot of things that you do for the first time. I mean, I I think a lot about when you're coming out of college and trying to work out what job do you want to do. And the way we handle that right now is we try and get internships. I remember I had a couple and I remember I I hated them. I'm like, okay, I'm not doing that. So, price elimination, **[0:13:53] Sam Ransbotham:** Hey, that's the most valuable thing I think you can learn from some internship is that I don't wanna do that. **[0:13:58] Tim Cadogan:** right? So helping visualize, helping understand you and your strengths and weaknesses, but also what you like and what you don't, and how those might match to the work that you would be doing and how you would create value, which is of course the key. That is a really interesting area because you get the job and then you sort of have to do it for two years, right? To sort of at a minimum as a first job out. **[0:14:24] Tim Cadogan:** That's one area, but there's so many areas of like things that we do for the first time that we may not get a shot to redo it. Cause by definition, you don't get a first job again, you get a second job. **[0:14:35] Sam Ransbotham:** Yeah, I think that's interesting. The the job one, what's I think a little unique, and maybe we would make it more complicated, is that the GoFundMe scenario is one that you've got a bunch of data about how people are participating in the platform, but your incentives are pretty well aligned with everyone on the platform. It's about connecting the people. Whereas, you know, in other scenarios, I think about, you know, one person gets the job, someone else doesn't get the job. **[0:15:01] Sam Ransbotham:** You know, there may be some complexities. I mean, one of the strengths that you're offering is this massive history of what works in fundraising, what doesn't work, what's the best. And getting that data in a way that's sort of unadulterated is, I think, a little bit unique about your platform too. I'm not sure if the job world has that. **[0:15:21] Tim Cadogan:** It's a demand and supply situation, whereas ours isn't, right, because it's really about how people feel. Your point about pattern recognition is hugely important, and it's sort of this visual I had in my head is if we could have a coach who sort of was tapped in to the full pattern recognition of the tens of millions of fundraisers we've had and was able to bring that to bear for you right now. Obviously, there's no way a human could do that. **[0:15:53] Tim Cadogan:** And so having that is something coupled with a highly empathetic interaction style, you know, good. And as it turns out, it is. I mean, actually, what we're seeing, it's interesting how we measure this. So we look at behaviors, right? So are we able to help people take the behaviors that are more likely to lead to success? Then we look at outcomes, which is did those behaviors lead to the outcomes that we hope that people will achieve, i.e. **[0:16:30] Tim Cadogan:** more help. And then third, how do people feel? And I talk a lot about that because it's just woven into everything we do, is the way people feel is at the heart of all of this. So I've mentioned sharing, right? Sharing is a scary thing, cause e we even have people create fundraisers and they don't tell anyone about them. And then you're like, well, you did a hard thing, but the hardest thing is then to say, I really do want the help. **[0:16:56] Tim Cadogan:** We now see 10% more people when you're using the coach, they're sharing. The reason you share is to get people to come and look and pay attention to what you're saying. And we see those increasing, and we see more successful fundraising. We estimate this year alone, we'll see about 125 million more help generated for people, which is a massive number. And then the feelings part is actually my favorite because the folks we survey have used the coach. **[0:17:27] Tim Cadogan:** Sixty five to 75% feel more confident, less stressed, and critically, less alone. And that sense of loneliness that people have when they're particularly when they're dealing with something hard, it's such a common thing, like I'm in this on my own. And the world sort of closes in, or it feels like it does, and the reality is that you are not alone. **[0:17:55] Sam Ransbotham:** Let's come back to measurement, though, for a second. I get that you can see clicking through and and those sorts of things on your platform. But some of the the measures you were talking about are not measures that I think you could detect from hesitancy and mouse speed or something. How are you able to connect the behaviors with, you know, how people are feeling? And some of the measures that you were talking about in terms of platform use? **[0:18:20] Tim Cadogan:** Well, so on sharing, we can clearly see, cause we have large populations using both, right? We can see **[0:18:26] Sam Ransbotham:** So you can see that part. Hm, **[0:18:27] Tim Cadogan:** that's very empirical. **[0:18:28] Sam Ransbotham:** I guess I was thinking more of the sort of emotional and feeling parts. **[0:18:32] Tim Cadogan:** That's surveyed, right? So the behaviors are direct data from the platform, right? The success is direct. We can see, you know, that you're getting more support. And we can see really interesting things, like we can see every share that you took, or that one of your supporters took, we can see how much traffic that drove back. We can essentially link back attention and support to every action. So, for example, if we we can figure out you shared it with ten friends, five of them donated, one of them shared, and their share was really powerful and generated a whole bunch more support. **[0:19:13] Tim Cadogan:** Cause you find the node in the network and realize that person is effective in communicating your story to others. They're a message carrier for her. That is really powerful. The feelings are surveyed, right? So those are survey responses. But you can certainly look at behaviors like we also sample behavior paths. So we can see, for example, places in the experience that people would stall. An example is the title, right? Because traditionally, what would happen? A lot of people would write their story, and then there's, you know, the title. **[0:19:49] Tim Cadogan:** And a title is hard, right? Yeah, I mean, you're a writer, you write papers, and a lot of journalists I talk to, they immediately get this. Cause I'm like, you have a headline writing department, don't you? And they're like, Yes, we do. I'm like, why do you have that? Cause it's hard. So you have people who do this professionally, and you're a journalist. So imagine we would see people stall. So before we launched the coach, one of the features we had was a title writer, an AI-powered title writer. **[0:20:18] Tim Cadogan:** It would take your story and suggest if you three titles you could pick. We saw eighty ninety percent of people adopt those titles, they could tweak them if they want, and they perform better. **[0:20:27] Sam Ransbotham:** Yeah, I like that because you can measure those delays, you can measure the moments of cognitive load. You know, someone may have gotten a phone call in the middle of this one, but on aggregate, you can. Statistics will tell you that this is a part that people struggle with, and that's something that you can measure on your platform. **[0:20:44] Tim Cadogan:** That's exactly right. And I know you, you're a professor of analytics among other things. So it's like it's a treasure trove of data. And you, you know, like any experience, it's a funnel, right? You see a lot of people come in, then you see, you know, some are just checking it out, but some get stuck at different points. And you're like, okay. Each one of these decisions gives a person a reason to tell themselves, I can't do this. **[0:21:05] Tim Cadogan:** And we're trying to say, you can do this. We've got you, we'll help you through it. GoFundMe is just a more technological way of doing something that is innate and timeless and universal. That's the other thing. Like, we operate in twenty countries, but we have people from almost every country have supported each other. And we have diaspora populations in many of those countries that support each other in ways that allow help to go to countries where we don't currently operate. **[0:21:35] Tim Cadogan:** So it's a very important and powerful thing. **[0:21:39] Sam Ransbotham:** What's next? This is this seems like a good start, but is this the end of the approach here, or what's next? **[0:21:45] Tim Cadogan:** No, not at all. I mean, I think we're still pretty early. So give you a couple of examples. One, we have more of an agentic assistant approach to creation of the fundraiser. The manage experience has a lot of AI powering suggestions, but it's still a little bit more of a traditional interface. And then there's also the transfer process, which is once you've raised money, making sure that you get it's going to the right bank. You know, our ambition is that that coach helps you through that whole process in a fully agentic way that gets smarter and smarter and kind of holds your hand through all of that. **[0:22:18] Tim Cadogan:** Currently, for example, the coach is text, it can be SMS, it could be chat, you can also get prompted emails, you can use the dashboards, a lot of different ways to use the. But I want to get to voice. And then we haven't really talked about the donor experience. So I think there's also we are encouraging people to use GoFundMe more as a place where you express your identity and act more often, not just to help friends, family, but also to help nonprofits as a fundraiser and as a supporter and a follower. **[0:22:52] Tim Cadogan:** And I think coaching there, something obviously different, but this idea of having an agentic capability that's helping you identify and like, you're a big supporter of medicine, so frontier doctors without board. It's like, oh, what's a a way to think about the support there? Suggesting maybe increasing the monthly, maybe there's a related organization, so much more that we can do there. So sort of the other side of it, helping what I call building the habit of helping among more people. **[0:23:23] Tim Cadogan:** And I'll just sort of give you a sense of that. Philanthropic participation in America has been declining. So the percent of households used to be about two thirds, and it's now in the forties. We're particularly focused on Gen Z, which is the most online of our generations, and is actually pretty philanthropic, just in a wider array of ways. Heavy users of GoFundMe and kind of building that into their lives with suggestions and recommendations and support, we think is pretty interesting. **[0:23:57] Sam Ransbotham:** So I think there's an apocryphal quote about Margaret Mead that said, When do we have a civilization? We have a civilization when you find people with broken bones who have died, not from the broken bone, because it it meant that the society helped them. And so perhaps what we're seeing here is a transition from that individual helping to helping at scale. And one thing I really like about what you shared today is this idea that people get to do something, learning from what everyone else has learned. **[0:24:25] Tim Cadogan:** Yes, that's a great way of putting it, yeah. **[0:24:27] Sam Ransbotham:** As treating this more as a design problem worth solving and kind of being honest about what's hard about it and what's easy. Thanks for taking the time to talk with us. **[0:24:37] Tim Cadogan:** Oh, it's. It's been a real pleasure, a really interesting discussion. Thank you so much for the time and the opportunity. **[0:24:43] Narrator:** Thanks for joining us today. Next time, Sam speaks with Ali Dazden, CTO of Dropbox, which uses AI to connect your files and improve efficiency at work. Please join us. Thanks for listening to Me, Myself and AI. Our show is able to continue in large part due to listener support. Your streams and downloads make a big difference. If you have a moment, please consider leaving us an Apple Podcast review or a rating on Spotify, and share our show with others you think might find it interesting and helpful.