# Rapid Response: When AI agents do your shopping, everything changes, with Shopify’s Jess Hertz

- **Show:** Pioneers of AI
- **Published:** 14 Sep 2026
- **Source:** https://prfx.byspotify.com/e/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/7G0M4p2bOLP0mP50O3CD/pscrb.fm/rss/p/rss.art19.com/episodes/9cf79c96-86cd-4ed2-a2af-c3a61c5ba2d2.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhlwb2RjYXN0Lm9wZW5uYXNoLmNvbQY6BkVU--4dcea1dd70768d62b2466884c2f8513b5f848fbf
- **Transcript:** https://podcasts.opennash.com/shows/pioneers-of-ai/rapid-response-when-ai-agents-do-your-shopping-everything-changes-with-shopifys-c732e7/
- **Provider:** OpenNash Podcasts (machine-generated)

## In brief

Shopify COO Jess Hertz argues that AI shopping agents are shifting e-commerce away from rewarding the biggest spenders and toward niche merchants that match what a buyer actually needs. Shopify aims to be the infrastructure layer, making products findable and buyable by AI while merchants stay the seller of record. She says early data already shows higher conversion and more orders from outside the top product categories.

The central tension is chaos versus anchor. Shopify embraces constant change: AI-first mandates, an in-house agent, open token use, tariff shocks and an 'unsentimental' culture. Hertz says this does not feel chaotic because the mission is fixed: help merchants succeed. Agentic sales are still small, so she frames AI as upside on a durable core business, and the big bet is still unproven.

## Key insights

1. **Agent shopping rewards precision, not ad spend** Hertz says 75% of AI-attributed orders last quarter came from categories outside the top 100. She argues agents match a real need rather than a keyword, which favors small, specialized merchants over those who buy popularity.
2. **Shopify's product data doubles agent conversion** Hertz says conversion is two times higher when an AI agent uses Shopify's catalog data than when it relies on scraped web data. That is the case for Shopify's product layer as the way AI finds and buys products.
3. **Complexity is Shopify's moat against AI platforms** Hertz argues that selling across stores, physical retail and agent channels is hard for merchants to manage alone. Shopify absorbs that work and keeps merchants as the merchant of record via an open standard built with Google.
4. **AI is letting Shopify grow without hiring** Hertz says headcount has been flat for more than eight quarters while revenue grows 34%. An in-house Slack agent called River has run 275,000 sessions, and engineers get fairly open access to AI tokens.
5. **Compensation design signals what a company values** Hertz says her first move as COO was fixing the sales compensation plan because it did not match Shopify's model of succeeding only when merchants succeed. She treats incentives as the way to correct drift.

## Questions this episode answers

### What does it mean when people say AI agents will do your shopping?

It means an AI assistant such as ChatGPT or Gemini finds and buys products for you from a description of what you need. Jess Hertz says Shopify is building the data and checkout plumbing, which it calls 'catalog', so agents can understand and purchase merchants' products.

### Will AI shopping help small businesses or just big brands?

Hertz says it is already helping small and niche sellers. She cites 75% of AI-attributed orders last quarter coming from outside the top 100 categories, because agents match the actual need rather than rewarding popularity or ad spend.

### How big is agentic shopping at Shopify right now?

Hertz says agentic sales volume is still small but growing, and she calls it extra upside. Almost 90% of quarterly revenue comes from merchants who have been on Shopify for over a year.

### Is Shopify worried about spending too much on AI tokens?

Hertz says Shopify sees a healthy return and gives engineers fairly open access to the best models, with some speed bumps and monitoring. She points to flat headcount for over eight quarters while revenue grows 34%, and admits that adoption is not the same as impact.

### What is River, the AI tool Shopify uses internally?

River is an AI agent that lives in Slack, the workplace chat app, and works on tasks described in public channels. Hertz says it can read code and run tests, and about 90% of employees have used it.

## Facts

- **Jess Hertz** [0:01:59]: "We power over 14% of the US. e-commerce market, and what's incredible about that is you can sit at this kind of wide aperture of commerce"
- **Jess Hertz** [0:23:29]: "it was about 10% of new shops made their first sale within a single day of signing up, which is just incredible"
- **Jess Hertz** [0:23:59]: "So 75% of AI attributed orders last quarter came from categories outside of the top one hundred, which I find particularly interesting."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:10:28]: "it lives in about 10,000 channels in the company. About 90% of employees have used it. It's run 275,000 sessions, and it's taken 15 million actions in five months"
- **Jess Hertz** [0:09:49]: "we have this amazing tool called River, and River is basically an agent that lives within our Slack."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:09:49]: "that memo made being reflexive in AI a baseline expectation for our employee base"
- **Jess Hertz** [0:12:06]: "almost 90% of our quarterly revenue is from merchants who've been on the platform for over a year."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:13:01]: "when someone comes from an agentic channel, the conversion rate that when an agent is using our ca- catalog data is two X compared to if it's just using scraped data."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:12:31]: "Sidekick is our AI-powered commerce agent that lives within Shopify."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:15:56]: "things like the Universal Commerce Protocol, which is the open commerce standard that we developed with Google, which is really the kind of transaction layer of commerce."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:16:55]: "Headcount for Shopify has been flat for more than eight quarters, and while revenue is growing 34%."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:26:06]: "merchants that reached a million in GMV had 92% retention rate, and then merchants that reached 10 million had 97% retention rate."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:27:00]: "It's how a large brand can run, you know, a thousand different campus stores, 1,200 storefronts, you know, 6 million SKUs on one stack."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:07:08]: "my last job in the White House was as White House staff secretary, which sometimes people don't know, but it's basically kind of the central nervous part of the West Wing and the White House."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:07:58]: "that drift was in the context of our incentive compensation system for our sales team."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:04:18]: "we've operated through lots of moments of uncertainty, even when the first kind of tariffs came into place where we had a team spending the weekend building a duties and taxes calculator."
- **Jess Hertz** [0:04:18]: "as of next week, I'm actually gonna be a Torontonian. I've finally decided to make the pilgrimage, uh, to Toronto"
- **Bob Safian** [0:04:02]: "headquartered in Ottawa. Most of its customers are in the US. You're based in DC."
- **Bob Safian** [0:11:42]: "Shopify just posted its, I think, fifth consecutive quarter of growth above 30%."
- **Bob Safian** [0:03:22]: "Toby Lutke's controversial memo last year, dictating the teams prove AI can't do a job before hiring any new staff."

## Transcript

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**[0:00:35] Bob Safian:** The business world is moving faster than ever, and when change hits, we need to learn in real time. On Rapid Response, you'll hear candid conversations with CEOs and leaders making tough calls about AI, human talent, responsibility, and the bottom line. How they navigate uncertainty, pressure, and high-stakes moments. I'm Bob Safian, former editor-in-chief of Fast Company, and I'll be your host as each episode breaks down what you need to know right now. You can find Rapid Response wherever you get your podcasts.

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**[0:01:36] Jess Hertz:** Let's hit the gas.

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**[0:01:59] Jess Hertz:** We power over 14% of the US. e-commerce market, and what's incredible about that is you can sit at this kind of wide aperture of commerce and you can see how competition kind of shakes out in real time. The barrier to entry because of AI has reduced, right? So the ability to start your own business and have your first sale, that time has just compressed significantly. About 10% of new shops made their first sale within a single day of signing up, which is just incredible.

**[0:02:17] Jess Hertz:** What's at stake is to grow entrepreneurs everywhere, and I think that is the bet, and we are going to win or die trying.

**[0:02:47] Bob Safian:** That's Jess Hertz, chief operating officer of online shopping platform Shopify. As trade war erupts between the US. and Canada, I wanted to talk to Jess because Shopify is a Canada-based company with most of its customers in the US., creating a potentially tense dynamic. Jess also digs in on the impact of agentic AI on e-commerce, outlining what's already real right now. She's forthright about how chaotic the environment is, discussing when it makes sense to bring order to the chaos and when to let it ride.

**[0:03:22] Bob Safian:** Even addressing Shopify chief operating officer Toby Lutke's controversial memo last year, dictating the teams prove AI can't do a job before hiring any new staff. It's a fascinating guide to navigating change at the top of an internet giant, so let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response. I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Jess Hertz, chief operating officer of Shopify. Jess, uh, great to see you.

**[0:03:52] Jess Hertz:** So great to be here. Thank you for having me, Bob.

**[0:03:55] Bob Safian:** So I I have to start with, uh, the elephant in the room. So, Shopify is a Canadian company

**[0:04:02] Jess Hertz:** We are.

**[0:04:02] Bob Safian:** headquartered in Ottawa. Most of its customers are in the US. You're based in DC. There's this trade war going on between the US. and Canada. Like, what what's the feeling about it within the company? Are you having to navigate?

**[0:04:18] Jess Hertz:** Okay, well, let me say, as of next week, I'm actually gonna be a Torontonian. I've finally decided to make the pilgrimage, uh, to Toronto, and so I'm really excited about that. And you asked about the feeling inside of the company. I actually think it's really more outside of the company, to be honest, and we definitely think of ourselves as a company rather than a country. But the tariffs are the big elephant in the room, and, you know, I think we've operated through lots of moments of uncertainty, even when the first kind of tariffs came into place where we had a team spending the weekend building a duties and taxes calculator.

**[0:04:56] Jess Hertz:** And so it is a moment to shine, even though there are lots of macro considerations happening in the world that, you know, really affect our merchants. In particular, our smaller merchants who may not be able to kind of absorb that without the right kinds of tools to be able to adapt as needed.

**[0:05:16] Bob Safian:** You don't necessarily talk about Shopify as being a Canadian brand because it's it's a it's a g- a global business, but d do you have conversations about that? If it were a a tariff between any countries, you would be reacting the same way.

**[0:05:29] Jess Hertz:** Tariffs between any countries, we would be reacting the same way.

**[0:05:33] Bob Safian:** You served in the Biden White House for a year, you know, your background is as a lawyer, you were on the Biden Harris transition team. Like, all all this political imagination doesn't make you think, like, I should get back in there, you know, try to help fix things.

**[0:05:46] Jess Hertz:** It it doesn't, uh, but I will give you my pet theory, which is I do think people underestimate how similar politics and tech are actually. And I think having worked in all these different places, I've started my career working for a behavioral economist in, um, the Obama administration, and I've had all of these interesting experiences in politics. And it really teaches you how to drive hard, how to develop pace, how to compress enormous amounts of information in such a short period of time.

**[0:06:22] Jess Hertz:** And I do think that skill set has really been incredibly valuable in tech, right? And especially in this moment in AI, right, where everyone's talking about compression of information and AI being able to kind of reduce context and and the need for human context. I do find that, um, being able to kinda take what I've learned from politics and take what I've learned from tech and really kinda make it my own in this new operating model has been both incredibly rewarding and fun and an underdeveloped connection, I think.

**[0:06:55] Jess Hertz:** Sometimes people look at it in a negative way, but I actually think it's quite a positive.

**[0:06:58] Bob Safian:** You know, the prevailing story is, like, government is slow, and tech is always like, we gotta get them to move at our pace. And y- your experience is a little bit different.

**[0:07:08] Jess Hertz:** Exactly. My experience is different. Um, you know, I my last job in the White House was as White House staff secretary, which sometimes people don't know, but it's basically kind of the central nervous part of the West Wing and the White House. And it's an incredible position because you see so much breadth. Um, and interestingly, uh, most staff secretaries are lawyers, which I always thought was kind of an interesting trait to the role. Um, but it moves incredibly quickly, and you have to be able to, kinda, as we were talking about before, have enough breadth to be able to spot issues or put people together.

**[0:07:46] Jess Hertz:** But that pace is real.

**[0:07:47] Bob Safian:** So when so when you became COO at Shopify last October, your first internal message to the staff said the company had drifted from its core. What had drifted?

**[0:07:58] Jess Hertz:** So that drift was in the context of our incentive compensation system for our sales team. My background is a little bit in kind of the behavioral economics area where I worked for a professor of mine in law school. And I've always been really interested in this idea of incentive systems and how you design compensation plans and how you really set up systems really does impact outcomes. And one of the first things I did when I came in as COO was look at our compensation plan for our sales team to say, actually, this is not aligned with what we wanna do, right?

**[0:08:32] Jess Hertz:** It's not actually aligned with the merchant outcome and our business model of Shopify, which is we only succeed when our merchants succeed. And so that drift was really a reflection of we actually need to be more merchant obsessed, and we need to make sure it's not just in, you know, kind of certain products or actions or things that we say. It's actually how we compensate people and put our money where our mouth is and really make sure that all of those directions point in the same way, which is to make sure that our merchants are set up for success.

**[0:09:05] Bob Safian:** Hm, we chatted just a bit before we started recording about Shopify CEO Toby Lutke, who who's called himself a a chaos engine. How much of your job is sort of reining him in in this kinda, I don't know, quest for disorder or whatever from the top?

**[0:09:21] Jess Hertz:** Oh, no, there is no there is no reining in. Uh, and I think, you know, it's funny, I think there's sometimes, you know, chaos people and order people, and I think I'm a chaos person, perhaps, masked as an order person. Certainly on the AI side, I think, uh, he has been incredible in terms of being able to steer the company. And one really nice example that I really like is, you know, everybody talks about his March 2025 memo on AI.

**[0:09:49] Jess Hertz:** And, you know, you really think about that that memo made being reflexive in AI a baseline expectation for our employee base. What does that actually mean, right? And how do you actually encode that in a company, both from a systems perspective and a cultural pers- perspective and how people work? And so it was this great example of how do you actually try and design a company like that. And one of the ways that we do that is through our tools, and we have this amazing tool called River, and River is basically an agent that lives within our Slack.

**[0:10:28] Jess Hertz:** And you describe a task in a public channel, it all has to be out in the open in in public, so that's a feature, not a bug. And it can read code, it can run tests, and it lives in about 10,000 channels in the company. About 90% of employees have used it. It's run 275,000 sessions, and it's taken 15 million actions in five months, and it has this profound effect on, you know, how we work as a company.

**[0:10:56] Jess Hertz:** I do really think the velocity that a company moves at can be judged based on how quickly information is moving within the company. And so this concept of River, you know, River can read everything in public channels at all times, and it can accelerate that pace because it can bring that transaction cost down. So you're relying less on human context. And, you know, the other piece of that is really also the network effects, right? Because River gets better with every interaction.

**[0:11:24] Jess Hertz:** And so I think there's these, uh, kind of interesting ways that we can see all of these intentional decisions and tools being built and culture being built around the North Star that Toby is also setting for the company. And it is definitely one of the most fun parts of my job.

**[0:11:42] Bob Safian:** Shopify just posted its, I think, fifth consecutive quarter of growth above 30%. That growth, how much of that is sort of, I don't know, like stealing share to make that happen, like from Amazon or someone else, or or how much is about AI? I mean, there is a lot of discussion around, you know, AI and agentic shopping, but the how much business is it really?

**[0:12:06] Jess Hertz:** The way that I think about it is really in two pieces. One, which is our core business, which is incredibly durable, and then the second is really, as as you allude to, really, that AI is expanding our upside. And so on the core business piece, the best sort of statistic that I can give you to think about this is really almost 90% of our quarterly revenue is from merchants who've been on the platform for over a year.

**[0:12:31] Jess Hertz:** That growth compounds, and it really shows how strong the business actually is. But on the agentic side, we are seeing while that agentic GMV is small, it's definitely growing. And we do have early signs that Sidekick is helping s merchants sell more, and merchants who are part of catalog are really, you know, starting to make more money. And for our listeners who may not be as as Shopify versed, Sidekick is our AI-powered commerce agent that lives within Shopify.

**[0:13:01] Jess Hertz:** And what we're really seeing is that merchants are bringing Sidekick more and more into their business. And really, on the on the catalog piece, that's our that's our product layer for agentic commerce, right? So that's what makes products understandable, discoverable, purchasable by AI. And there, what we're seeing is that it is increasing conversion. And so when someone comes from an agentic channel, the conversion rate that when an agent is using our ca- catalog data is two X compared to if it's just using scraped data.

**[0:13:35] Jess Hertz:** So it's really the combination of this, you know, persistent tailwinds in our base case, and as we enter the agentic era, we are seeing even more upside.

**[0:13:46] Bob Safian:** You're building this sort of infrastructure layer for AI commerce. You have you have this agentic storefront integrations with ChatGPT and Gemini and Copilot, whatever. How much do you worry that sort of the big AI platforms are gonna build their own layer?

**[0:14:01] Jess Hertz:** What I would say is I think we're past that, you know, SaaS apocalypse moment where, uh, I think I think Shopify has certainly kinda come out the other end of that. And the way that I really think about that is complexity is both the challenge and the moat for Shopify. Uh, as you mentioned, we're building all of these products, but really, when you think about it, a complex world helps Shopify. We've always been a unified operating system for commerce commerce.

**[0:14:28] Jess Hertz:** We've always acted as this aggregator of different kinds of ways to sell, whether that's an online store, whether that's in-person retail, whether that's agentic commerce. And with buyers across, you know, different channels, it helps Shopify actually do better because that complexity is hard. It's hard for merchants to be able to manage that on their own. And so, you know, I think what's even more scarce in this AI world is that infrastructure that you're talking about, right?

**[0:14:56] Jess Hertz:** And building that complete stack for the merchant.

**[0:14:58] Bob Safian:** Hm. Some of the talk about AI is, oh, it will allow sort of smaller, more independent businesses and merchants to be able to compete better. But what you're saying is it also makes it more complicated. And so the way they're gonna compete isn't gonna be like them doing it on their own.

**[0:15:16] Jess Hertz:** Yeah, I think the complexity of the commerce transaction is always going to exist, and the infrastructure in that world is just gonna continue to compound. And because Shopify is that reliable infrastructure, that's why we're such a valuable player, and that's why we can absorb all of that complexity for our merchants.

**[0:15:35] Bob Safian:** And for these merchants who are, like, looking at agentic shopping and this future of having an AI agent between them and a customer, they'll be relying on Shopify to help them manage that, which is good for you, but might also make them feel a little bit more beholden, a little bit more trapped.

**[0:15:56] Jess Hertz:** Uh, I don't think they'll feel trapped. I think the nice part about Shopify, even if you look at s things like the Universal Commerce Protocol, which is the open commerce standard that we developed with Google, which is really the kind of transaction layer of commerce. The merchant continues to be the merchant of record. And so the idea is not that we were trying to do anything in terms of disintermediating the merchant. It's really kind of facilitating for the merchants the ability to have that one business and have it, you know, work everywhere where commerce happens.

**[0:16:27] Jess Hertz:** And so that is really kind of at the core of what our products and partnerships are really trying to accomplish for the merchant.

**[0:16:34] Bob Safian:** I was talking to Uber's CEO, uh, Andrew McDonald, a few months back. I don't know if you know Mac, but and and he ignited this meme about the the hidden costs of AI, you know, and that, oh, I'm spending money on these tokens that maybe I'm not getting a return on. And I've I've heard that your team can still access tokens mostly without restriction.

**[0:16:55] Jess Hertz:** Yeah. Yes. I think we see a very healthy ROI. Now, look, the the idea of adoption is never gonna be the same thing as impact, so that is definitely true, and we are sort of thinking through ways to measure impact. Headcount for Shopify has been flat for more than eight quarters, and while revenue is growing 34%. So I think from an ROI sort of pure financial company perspective, we are doing, um, quite well. I think the other pieces to it is that we are, you know, we work carefully in terms of moderating that type of cost.

**[0:17:29] Jess Hertz:** We have a pretty open and flexible view, and we want engineers to be able to use the best models for the best circumstance. Obviously, we have thoughtful speed bumps built in along the way. We're constantly monitoring it. We're constantly, um, making sure we're we're we're providing the best tools that we can. Um, but it is not something we are a fairly pragmatic company at bottom.

**[0:17:51] Bob Safian:** Hm, to generate that higher productivity, which is basically what you're talking about, AI doing, doing more revenue with the same number of people. I heard you say that the ideal employee has evolved from being a T-shaped person to an X-shaped person. Can you can you unpack that for us?

**[0:18:09] Jess Hertz:** It's another one of my pet theories, so I've given you some of my pet theories today. When I joined Shopify, we had this idea of the T-shaped person, right? So you have lots of breadth, but you still have this one vertical that you go deep in, which is, you know, your your craft, right? For for me, that would be a legal craft or a regulatory craft. Um, but what I what I think we're starting to see is AI is really pushing towards what I'm calling X-shaped people, right?

**[0:18:36] Jess Hertz:** So you have multiple spikes of expertise, much faster being able to kind of absorb complexity, being able to learn new spaces, being able to, you know, be a seven out of ten designer if you wanna be, right? Or so, I try and do my own data work now. And so you're able to kind of move across domains faster. Um, and so I've created this analogy in my head where now you sort of see different slices, right?

**[0:19:04] Jess Hertz:** You have kind of, um, different vectors of expertise, and you're really moving away from just the expectation that you have to have depth in this one area. The other part of it is really, how do those different shaped people actually intersect with each other? And, you know, I think the idea of team composition and the different constellation of people will only become, you know, more and more important as we enter this AI world. It's actually that team combination that becomes the accelerant to incredible amounts of work that you couldn't even, you know, imagine.

**[0:19:39] Jess Hertz:** And some of that magic is trying to say, okay, where are people's edges? How do they fit together? And how is this sort of shape of employee changing over time?

**[0:19:49] Bob Safian:** I I, you know, when you first started describing, um, the X shape, I was thinking like, Oh, this is what we used to call a generalist, maybe a maybe a higher level gen generalist. But then when you talk about the teams, they're generalist specialists because you're fitting them together in different ways.

**[0:20:07] Jess Hertz:** Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I I think a little bit about Tetris, maybe. It's not that you're a pure generalist and a pure athlete. It's that you have the ability to kind of go deep in different areas. You still might have specialized areas of expertise, right? So I still might have a legal background, some craft expertise in certain areas. It's just I can learn different areas much faster because I have different tools available to me. So now I not only have, you know, a legal or a talent sort of, um, pie or quadrant to me, I'm now deep in commercial, so I'm able to kind of generate these areas of expertise in a much different way than I was, you know, five

**[0:20:48] Jess Hertz:** years ago.

**[0:20:50] Bob Safian:** I'm not sure if I've transitioned from a T shape to an X shape, but what Jess is saying here is that we all need to consider how we're adapting to the skill set profile that best meets the moment. After the break, Jess delves deeper into how agentic AI is transforming the e-commerce landscape, unpacks the pros and cons of being what she calls a deeply unsentimental person, and more. Stay with us.

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**[0:22:01] Bob Safian:** Before the break, Shopify's COO, Jess Hertz, shared how the company is reacting to chaotic change, from trade tensions to AI pressures. Now, she shares signals she's gleaning from within the Shopify ecosystem, how the company avoids having its fastest-growing merchants outgrow the platform, and why the culture at Shopify is overtly unsentimental. Let's dive back in. Shopify powers, like, one seventh of all US. commerce, and and your merchants are mostly smaller businesses. A as you mentioned, those are the kinds of businesses that can be vulnerable to things like tariffs and trade wars and oil price spikes and things like that.

**[0:22:46] Bob Safian:** Are there things you're you're hearing and seeing among the merchants about how they're faring? Are there things you at Shopify try to do to to help small businesses that are under pressure?

**[0:22:57] Jess Hertz:** You're correct. We power over 14% of the US. e-commerce market, and what's incredible about that is you can sit at this kind of wide aperture of commerce and you can see how competition kind of shakes out in real time. And, you know, I think a couple things that we're seeing. One is really the barrier to entry because of AI has reduced, right? So the ability to start your own business and have your first sale, that time has just compressed significantly.

**[0:23:29] Jess Hertz:** Um, last year, I it was about 10% of new shops made their first sale within a single day of signing up, which is just incredible. And then on the SMB side, what I think is kind of perhaps the most interesting is that we are seeing AI really help niche products and help the long tail, where you had search that tended to reward things like popularity or spend. But what we are seeing is actually agents are rewarding precision and personalization, right?

**[0:23:59] Jess Hertz:** So 75% of AI attributed orders last quarter came from categories outside of the top one hundred, which I find particularly interesting. And really, that's kind of the shift, right, that we're seeing, which is AI can understand the actual need and not just a keyword. And, you know, I I had this experience over the summer where my eldest daughter was going to sleepaway camp for the first time, and she was going to this camp in Wyoming.

**[0:24:26] Jess Hertz:** She was going to a ranch camp, which I knew nothing about. They sent a, you know, a long list of things to to purchase, and one of them was a trunk that would fit under her her bunk. As every good mom is doing out there, I'm like, Well, how am I gonna find that? Uh, and so I used my AI to find this specialized merchant who is in Wisconsin that's been doing this for forty years and who, w- you know, I found I didn't know the specifications of her bunk, but I found this amazing trunk.

**[0:24:59] Jess Hertz:** And, you know, I think that's exactly the kind of merchant that AI can really help people discover, and it's incredible to see that coming to life.

**[0:25:07] Bob Safian:** Hm. On the other end of it, uh, service businesses often face pressure as they grow to move upstream, you know, from working with smaller businesses to working with bigger ones that provide more revenue. And if they don't, they run the risk of their sort of their best customers growing past them, right? Mo- moving to platforms that are more designed for them. Uh, catering to the big guys, which could undercut things with the base. Like, h- how do you how do you navigate and think about those elements?

**[0:25:38] Jess Hertz:** Yes, well, we wanna be able to serve from, you know, the merchant starting around their kitchen table, all the way up to, you know, Kim Kardashian and Skims. Or, you know, we wanna really be able to serve the entire range of merchants. That is what our infrastructure is designed to do. Um, and, you know, we see incredible success from that perspective and the simplicity of the platform and what it's able to do, just in kind of pure retention numbers.

**[0:26:06] Jess Hertz:** You know, we see over the last five years, merchants that reached a million in GMV had 92% retention rate, and then merchants that reached 10 million had 97% retention rate.

**[0:26:19] Bob Safian:** But if I'm a brand like, I'm thinking I I, you know, I met recently with the CEO of On, a running store, right? Now they're up to whatever $300 billion in revenue. They're not gonna they're gonna grow beyond what Shopify can do for them.

**[0:26:33] Jess Hertz:** Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Uh, they're a Shopify merchant, actually. Uh, and so, uh, we've had great success with On as well. We actually don't think that they're gonna outgrow Shopify. And when I think about enterprise, the choice of what a great strategy perhaps looks like today is really a choice of, you know, architectural choices made several years ago. And I think part of the ability of Shopify to say, you know, we build one unified data model, we make it extensible.

**[0:27:00] Jess Hertz:** It's how a large brand can run, you know, a thousand different campus stores, 1,200 storefronts, you know, 6 million SKUs on one stack. And that ability to really service that breadth of merchant is, you know, why I think we've had such great success over the last two decades.

**[0:27:20] Bob Safian:** And and so you don't you don't worry about letting them grow away from you.

**[0:27:25] Jess Hertz:** I think it's a little bit reversed. We wanna be able to help them grow.

**[0:27:29] Bob Safian:** I I saw that you called yourself a deeply unsentimental person, and it sounded like you said it is thinking as it's something that's an asset, although, you know, maybe sometimes it's a hindrance.

**[0:27:42] Jess Hertz:** Hm. Yes. Uh, it is, uh, it is perhaps both an asset and a hindrance. It is very much based on these kind of first principles, and one of the things I loved most about Shopify when I came in was this phrase, keep your identity lightweight. And it's this idea that you can wake up smarter, you can wake up better the next day, and, you know, you don't have to get so attached to ideas and you have to kinda keep things nonpersonal in that way and almost irreverent.

**[0:28:12] Jess Hertz:** And I think that, um, ability to separate and to say, okay, even if this was my idea, there's a better one out there, or, you know, there's there's not just one path in life. I I've internalized that as being fairly unsentimental, um, and it's really allowed me to pivot a ton in my career. Not necessarily with a baggage that it has to be a certain way, or we've done it a certain way over a decade, and so that's how we're gonna do it.

**[0:28:41] Jess Hertz:** It's a very unsentimental, um, company in that respect, where you do, you know, you are able to kind of make change if there is a better trade off out there.

**[0:28:51] Bob Safian:** Hm. And it and it starts, as you said, with with first principles. There is something that you are sentimental about, like that that is your commitment, right? And that allow uh uh, I I mean, I I wanna make sure I'm understanding this right, because in today's world, like, being, uh, you know, the chaos just puts a lot of people off. And but if you have an anchor, I think what you're saying is how you get there,

**[0:29:15] Jess Hertz:** Yes. Yes. There. Yes. Yes.

**[0:29:16] Bob Safian:** it can move around.

**[0:29:17] Jess Hertz:** Exactly. And I think that, you know, I don't I don't actually feel like we're a chaotic company. And so there is a deep focus, and I think it's because of this purity of mission, which is really an alignment mechanism that is that is deeply held within the company. And so I think that is really the anchor and the first principles basis, and you are able to make trade-offs based on that. And so it doesn't actually feel chaotic.

**[0:29:46] Jess Hertz:** It feels curious, and it feels open, and it feels like innovative for all of the right reasons, versus feeling, you know, attached to perhaps what others are doing in an industry or, you know, what you've internalized as best practice over time.

**[0:30:06] Bob Safian:** So, what's at stake for Shopify right now?

**[0:30:10] Jess Hertz:** Well, I think what's at stake is the same thing as when we started. It is to be the one hundred-year company and to grow entrepreneurs everywhere. And I think that is the bet, and we are going to win or die trying.

**[0:30:27] Bob Safian:** And for you, moving to Toronto, leaving these, uh, these beautiful United States of America, not a concern?

**[0:30:33] Jess Hertz:** Hm. I'm actually really excited about it. I do get energy from being with people in person, and it's gonna be such a great experience, and I'm not too worried about not having roots in the US.

**[0:30:46] Bob Safian:** Well, Jess, this this was great. Thanks, thanks so much for doing it.

**[0:30:49] Jess Hertz:** So fun. Thank you so much for having me, Bob.

**[0:30:54] Bob Safian:** I wanna double click on Jess's use of the word sentimental. Sentiment often has an emotional context, and it can be tightly related to empathy, something all good leaders need to channel. But Jess is using the word differently here to prioritize agility and ego-lesseness. The pace of change today means we don't have the luxury of being nostalgic, and for all of us, ego can be a bottleneck to learning. The beauty of the chaos that Jess and Toby are leaning into is that it forces us out of our comfort zone and into a realm where we can't help but leave our ego at the door and work together to solve the hardest problems.

**[0:31:35] Bob Safian:** Instead of trying to quiet the storm, sometimes our best choice is just to get comfortable with the rain. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. RapidResponse is a wait what? original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our senior producer is Alex Morris, and our associate producer is Masha Mahutonina. Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli and Brian Pugh. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. For more, visit rapidresponseshow dot com.