Colman Domingo

Hey guys, welcome to another fresh, cold open on Smartless.

Oh, it's a fresh one.

Uh, I'm happy to have you 2 here guest starring in, Really Uh, in a cold open.

excited to be here and see you guys. This is really incredible.

no, I've been wanting to get you guys in a cold open You look for a while.

just like your pictures. Um, so, Yeah,

what do what do you guys understand a cold open to be? Do you think it is? Uh, as

You just wanna blast into it and get into the show.

yeah, I I know I know what it is, it's probably short. You don't think Yeah,

it has anything to do with temperature or anything like that?

hm, hm. I think where No, and I are you going?

don't think we belabor it in the way that you are. Okay, but anyway,

Alright, so you just wanna get into the show, then?

Yeah, I just wanna say, Hey, welcome I mean, to all new

welcome to Smartless. SmartLess.

Oh, okay, welcome. It's all new SmartLess.

Smart, wise, smart, wise, smart, wise,

You wanted to talk about your love for me and for Sean, and go

That's right.

ahead. We're ready to listen. Oh, no, there's there was

two things. some, uh Yeah, you wanna talk about the gay chat line, and you oh, the gay wanna ta-

chat line.

and you wanna talk about

Wait, uh, what was it called? It was Manhole, I looked it wasn't it?

up. I looked it up. It's g- I thought it was called Manhole. It was called Pardon Sir.

Pardon. Pardon, sir.

That's like that's like you're on a crowded subway So Sean, tell and you

this story, so you, you were, you know, it's a crowded subway. Um, pardon, sir. Uh, you. Your mom came to you one day, how old were you? You were, I was, like, 17, maybe,

yeah, 17 or 18 or somewhere around eight, seventeen, eighteen, and I would go downstairs to the phone in the basement, and I would go, I would call like a gay chat line, like a party line, like, Hey, what's going on? And and I didn't know that. It was like, I don't know, back then, it was like t two bucks a minute or five bucks a minute, I don't know some crazy kind of money. And I'd talk and talk and talk, and my mom came to me with the bill, she's like, Are you calling now?

It's called Pardon Sir or whatever it is. What? Because she called it and found out that w- what it was, and I was like, Oh, I was so embarrassed. I was like, Oh, that's just a that's just a so you weren't out joke. We were just you weren't out joking around. yet. No, uh-uh. I was like, That's just a joke. We were just joking around. Isn't that funny? What's funny about it? There's nothing man. Isn't that funny, there's nothing funny about right?

Isn't it.

that funny?

Okay, so that's Pardon Sir, Shani. Now, what about this manhole? Um, that you were

totally. And I was like, my only comeback was, At least I have 2 eyes. No, I didn't say that, I didn't say that.

Sean, Sean?

And, uh, no, but she was really she was really and then I, I, whatever, it was anyway, who cares? It was really embarrassing.

I care. I care.

I care deeply.

And then the other day and then the other day, like a week ago, Will Will FaceTime me, and while I was on my laptop FaceTiming with my phone rings. And it's one of those people from another country that asked for told Oh, you know, me like I that sounds had a racist. What are So tell you? What? What? What me,

are you talking about? told me I

You know, and they're like had, like, a phone

a bill.

bank, like like a scam.

Yeah, like, I had a, I don't know, like an overdue bill or something. They need my information. And so Will, I put on speaker, and Will says, I can see you, I can see you. God is in you, God is in you, and

And the guy's like, Oh, and by the way, the guy was undeterred. He's like, Okay, that's no problem, problem, well, if you I'd like to. can send me So so let's get it, here's your to the thing. bill. Yeah, And yeah, I mean, he these scammers, JB, I mean, they don't they they're in, keep their eye on the prize. But what was It's amazing. the wha- I said so much gibberish to him. what was

the, um, when you got the when you looked at your phone of the incoming call, did it say unknown caller?

no, it said the number, and then the curiosity always wins. I was like, Who is that? So I always

see, boy, they count on

answer it.

guys like you.

You heard about the cat, right? You heard about the cat with the curiosity.

what happened? What happened?

Yeah, and it ended up killing him. And it ended up killing him. Well, what about Yeah,

all the emails? You got do you guys get 1,000 emails a day that are that are just phishing, you know, with a link, you know? Like, it looks like an Apple bill, or an Amazon all day, bill, or something. every day, all Like, is, day, yeah. are you do you always oh yeah, your get?

your Amazon bill is just, you know, you. Click here and adjust it, I know? And you know?

then your life's over. If you click

I know.

on that thing, you're hacked,

I know.

your dig- I I'm very good about just deleting anything that looks a little sideways. Are you? Are you bad at that, Shani?

I I do that too, but I always make sure I I say something funny so they know it's me. Like, if I forward it to, um, my tax guy or whatever, I'll be like, Hey,

That's illegal.

this is I'll say, like, you know, I'll do a joke so he knows I'm not forwarding. I Did I, I

you say you're a tax tax, you know, evasion guy? Tax evasion, guy, You didn't say

that's what you said. tax evasion guy, yeah, tax

did you say? evasion. Yeah, Why is he based in the Caymans? Why is he in the Caymans? Um,

that's where he lives.

I just wanted to have a quick I said, Why is that? Um, what, uh, I was saying that documentaries, th- this is a new thing. Uh, do you guys have? There's so many, what they call documentaries out now about people, and then it feels like a lot of them are endorsed by the person and they're part of it, and it f- half of them feel like just, uh, puff pieces, uh, yeah, puff pieces, like, they're they're glazing themselves, like it's to sell them and their brand.

Is that does that feel accurate? So I have people that are like, Oh, did you see the such and such documentary? I'm like, I don't know. The term documentary is a bit of a stretch here. Feels like a, this feels like a real, like a self-promotional real.

Yeah, that's interesting. yeah, there there Are you with me are there

on that?

are some of those, yeah, but, uh, but man, the ones that aren't, I'm such a documentary No, they're good, there's fan. Like,

so many good ones. Yeah, of course.

speaking of films that I love, I saw a film last night that is not a new film, so I'm I'm I'm late to this, um, as is God, this is fun most things.

when he does this.

Superman, Man of Steel.

The film is called Birth, and it's it's directed Oh my by Jonathan Glazer.

god, yeah, Jonathan Glazer. Oh, it's so good.

Nicole Kidman film. Good Lord, is this film good?

Really, when did it come out? yeah, it's so to, uh, good 2004 or something

20 years ago. like that. Yeah, Oh, I gotta it's it's

see that.

It was the movie he did years. right after Sexy Beast, Yeah, I mean, I right?

think it it moves slowly, but I love stuff like that. M m mia is it good? He is And and I and such a good I and I looked on it, director. I looked it up online, didn't make any money, got terrible reviews, and I'm like, Well, I said, Well, then my taste is in my ass. Like, in other words, like, you know, I mean, I try to make stuff, and, like, if I turned that in, I would think, Oh my god, you have just like, here, y- you know, you're

You did it.

here comes the rest of your career, pal. Nice, nice work. And then, like, you just get, you know, no money, no no reviews, no nothing. Like, it doesn't do well at all. Like, what are you supposed to do with with if you got taste like that? I I I guess I got I'm doing something wrong. I don't I don't know, know, I I don't know. there's there's I I I think

there's no rhyme or reason to it, I don't think, I I really I I I don't.

think the Rotten Tomatoes thing is wild, too. Now, like, something will get, like, 90% or 100% on Rotten Tomatoes, and then I'll see it, and I'm like, I don't think it's a hun- like, I don't think it's that great. Well, at least Or vice versa.

but at least with that, it's an aggregator, so you're you're you're you're seeing a consensus, and this film Yeah, but what had a consensus

Yeah, but it's fresh if it's over 60%, so yeah, but that's the what I'm yeah, thing.

but what I'm saying is the is the is the critics sometimes kind of get seduced by

I agree, I agree. certain things, There were a

you know?

couple of films in the last couple of years where everybody was like, They jump, yeah, Bandwagon

like lemmings. TV shows and films, Yeah, and they all jump yeah,

on it, and it's the water cool, water cooler effect, I think.

I did look at, like, a couple of my favorite critics, though, gave it gave it rave reviews, like, uh, guy in The New York Times and The There you New Yorker, go. like, they loved it. And I guess it was just maybe just so many people reviewed it, it brought it down or something. I don't know, but man, is it good? Birth? I think film Yeah,

reviews are pretty tough to I don't know.

I don't know. I I'm such a I know. It's uh, you know, uh, this weird thing.

Rotten Tomatoes in in Canada, it's called Rotten Tomatoes. Did you guys know that?

Is that right?

Hey, um, so so is that right? Hey. So, um, speaking of, uh, speaking of critically acclaimed, that's what our guest today is.

oh, then they can answer some they got questions He, he's you had for a time.

accumulated 146 nominations, 46 wins, nominated for

What?

2 Academy Awards for Best Actor, BAFTAs Critics Choice won an Emmy, got nominated for a bunch of other ones, Golden Globes, Olivier Awards, uh, Screen Actors Guild Award, you name

good Lord.

it. He has a an incredible list of s uh, screen and state and television and stage

Kenneth Branagh.

credits. Uh, uh, Shani, that you will, you're gonna get a theater story out of this guy. He is he's a playwright, he's a performer, you know him from, uh, Birth of a Nation, you know him from he was incredible as, uh, Joseph Joe Jackson in Michael, you know him from Disclosure Day, Wait. you know, from the Co- uh, oh my 1st Look Oh my god, god, Guys, it's

oh my god. Colman. Oh, God, Oh my god. Wait, this Whooo is crazy. I was You guy just,

I know.

oh my god, I was just watching you, like, on some Oh, I just watched Michael again last night, and

Oh, sweet.

I was like, I would kill to meet Colman. I've never met and Hi, here you are. Hey, This is crazy. good to finally This is why we meet you. Colman do the show. I I've we've se I love passed each

this show.

other at events and stuff like that, but I've never been, uh, cause I get kind of weird and shy show never stopped, sometimes. And I he never seen me, he never I've never seen him. You stopped. ever th- you're like, I'm in seat 3A. I gotta get to my seat. You know, I gotta I'm such a focus.

huge, huge fan.

I'm a fan of all I've ever I am of it. since I know, me as well. I'm so too, me too. It's

excited you're here.

such a thrill to have you here, Colman.

You guys, thank you.

Uh, I I also just watched Michael this summer, and I was blown Same. away by your

Yeah, me too. performance. Thank Oh, thank you, thank you

you, guys.

so good.

Thank you, guys. Well, uh, I appreciate I mean, that it.

talk about something that does well, um, I mean, that was, uh, did incredibly well. I mean, people, millions and millions of people watched Well, it's funny that still today,

that as you were talking

right? Still going.

about the rotten toma- rotten tomatoes, I was thinking that we got, like,

For sure.

panned with Rotten Tomatoes, you know, but Michael then but yeah, was, Michael was panned with

oh, really? Rotten Tomatoes. Yet audiences,

no way.

yet audiences. Because I don't know, I feel like, you know again, I think people jumped on the bandwagon where they they wanted a certain story about Michael Jackson, and so they didn't really they weren't able to look through the lens of what we were creating. But then the audiences swung the other way, and the audiences Yeah, didn't it have been loving did did huge it.

box office, didn't it?

Huge, we made over $1 billion. Yeah, it's the It's way. it's the highest grossing it's the highest grossing biopic ever made, and the highest grossing one for Lionsgate. Yeah, That's amaz- That is and you guys

said, Hey, screw you critics, we're gonna make a sequel.

dude, exactly, that's exactly, that's how you, you know, like, you know, but also, what's what's beautiful cause I feel I'm listen, alright, this is I just think that at some point, I think I naturally, I f- maybe I've I, I just feel this way cause I feel like criticism, you know, especially when it comes to the lens of, like, people, they want something, and you're not if you're not delivering that, they're not able to see it through the lens.

But in an audience, I'd rather just follow someone's, you know, opinion of someone that I respect, you know what I mean, somebody even on, like, on Twitter or or IG or something. I'm like, Oh, we, I'll go see it because these people liked it, and they're talking about it in a

Yeah, I I think that's

comment thread.

the way it's going more and more, right? That that sort of, s uh, social media, um, kind of crowdsourcing opinion, I think is is driving a lot of box Yeah, I office, you know,

well, ye- yeah, I think it's E. I mean, I don't wanna be the guy who who who, uh uh, you know, takes apart critics just because he's been on the, uh, on the short end of, uh, of the bad reviews, as have but

we all.

we all have. yeah, but but

I but I I I do think it's really difficult now when I watch. Sometimes I'll I'll I'll see a a review or whatever, and then I'll look at the guy and I'll be like, I don't wanna watch anything that this guy likes. Like, he and I don't have the same, and it kinda goes to what you said, Colman. It's more about about aligning yourself with people who Jason talk about birth, right? Like, you go into these things, and you and you go, well, yeah, there's certain people who aren't gonna like it, but those aren't the kinda people that you would wanna go and do something creative with.

Yes, yeah, yeah. Do you read? do you read, uh, all your stuff, Colman?

I don't read all of it. I like, sometimes I feel like I sort of, like, put myself in a little bubble for a minute. But then at some point, I wanna sort of, like, pull back the blind and see w- see what people how they're responding to it. You know what I mean? But I really don't want it to take over the what the feeling I had about making it, you know what? I mean? I'm not gonna look at it the day after we premiere or something and suddenly, like, you know,

but it is sort of like i it is it's, uh, I I've always felt that since we we d we, uh, we, we have a public job and we we our product is for the masses, uh, hopefully, it it it does s stand to reason that you would then look at what the public is saying about it. How is it being received for the audience you are trying to please? Um, I, I guess, um,

it's true, it's true, but but you have to be careful with what you get, right? Because I'm, like, I remember, um, recently, I I guest hosted, uh, Jimmy Kimmel, and I never I never I never guest hosted his show like that, so I I wanted to know. So, I went behind the blinds of Twitter, and I went on there to just to see how people were responding to it, and it was overwhelmingly beautiful. But then I got, like, fixated on this one chick who was like, you know, you're too you're doing too much, you know, just like, Yo, calm down, too much exuberance.

And I was like, You know what you mean? So I was like, Alright, this doesn't matter. So but, of course, I turned it into part of the monologue the next day. I was like, You know, but because I'm human and I want to know, like, how people are responding to it, You gotta you know?

right-size it, right? I mean, it's like, it's one person's opinion, it's not indicative of the whole thing. And even if it is everybody's opinion, it how did you feel about what you did, and and s and what size should that be in your calculus as to, w- you know, whether it was a positive experience or not?

yeah, and also but also, I feel like, uh, art is so subjective as well, I feel like some people should fucking

yeah, it is.

hate it. Some peop- if you're making some really good art, hopefully some it's polarizing in some way, and people are like, I'm not sure about when, you know, people want like, even, let's say, the the Michael Jackson film, I I wanted to make sure I gave some humanity to Joe Jackson, and really made him a bit more complex than I think what anyone would want what assumed Joe Jackson to be. And I thought that was my job, but I feel like some people are like, No, I want more of the monster, or, like, Oh, why'd you do that?

So I'm like, you know, I can't please everybody, I can do is try to try to do You're pleasing my best.

everybody, you're doing something wrong.

Dude, exactly.

I loved I loved your portrayal of Joe Jackson. I thought it was so layered. Even those moments where you thought he was gonna blow up at Michael, and then it kinda went like, Okay. And it just kinda left, and I thought that was really cool that it it was really nuanced and but but getting to the the sorry, I just wanna go back to that idea, if you think, and it just occurs to me, and it's not a new idea, so forgive me, and believe me, I used to read the critics of this podcast early on, and and, uh, I was reminded how, uh, unoriginal my ideas are.

But, you know, the i i i the the idea that back in the day when there used to be especially, we went through these great, eh, uh, um, periods in show business, in the sort of the 70s, et cetera, in TV and film, where we had a lot of groundbreaking stuff, and there was stuff that just we never heard of and went away. A lot of those things were driven by art, were driven by just trying to do the really cool, interesting breakthrough, you know, groundbreaking material, and it wasn't driven by, uh, Box uh, marketing Office.

and look and box office and looking You would never at

have a Robert Altman film, you'd never

You're right.

know you'd you never have, uh, any of those films, because the you know, now they look at and they go, they first thing they do is, if they're making films, they go to their their sales department, their marketing department, and they go, Can we sell this movie?

and then they go to the awards department,

And then they go to the awards department as opposed to Is this movie good? Is this something that that, you know, we like? And and people producers, directors, actors, studio chiefs would take a chance on something because everybody agreed that this was something that could why do you think be great,

why do you think right now that people are so I, I know it's all it's money, but I feel like you can't have a parasite, or, like, you know, what? What was that? Everything everywhere all at once. So, like, imagine reading that. I. It doesn't sound like that movie would make Right, it would any money or scare the hell out make any sense,

of you if you were writing the

exact. But but it takes check. Yeah, right, people to say we're gonna take a chance on this because we believe in this

I know.

good art, and then it succeeds.

well, it it is money, it is money, Colman. I think that also, uh, a lot of these big companies that make the decisions that give the that lend the money or give the money to to create these projects, films, TV, whatever, uh, these companies are now big, uh, publicly traded companies that have to and their CEO

Have a responsibility.

and chairman have to answer to their shareholders, right? So they have a they're like, Hey, we I have a fiscal, r- uh, obligation to our shareholders, and this doesn't meet that cr- fit that criteria, and and it's just it

Straight business.

it doesn't it doesn't really necessarily work with art. yeah. Speaking of

art, speaking of selling something to the, uh, just real quickly, uh, Willie, I saw the Behemoth trailer 2 days ago. I think it was 2 days ago, 1 I wanna day ago.

see that.

It looks freaking great. I mean, and and you you actually start the trailer and finish the trailer, and it's so exciting to see you up there. Oh, that's so Um, but that movie

cool. I wanna see that.

looks fantastic. Um, Pedro Pascal,

The Great Tony. Uh, Tony Gilroy Yeah, Pedro's amazing in it, I'll just say it. Pedro Pascal is amazing in it. He's he's God, he's the best, and Tony, I love you know, the great

that guy.

Tony Gilroy and Olivia Wilde and, uh, Eva Victor, are some great people. it's a beautiful So, yeah, I'm excited for cast. It's a people to see it. I can't

great cast.

wait to see that. Um, Colman,

looks like it.

can I just ask you a couple questions about Joe Jackson? I know you're One que- so sick of talking one question about him. Just

you can ask one.

one caller.

Sure, no problem. Yes. No,

I'm sorry. Sorry, Colman. We're really sorry about that. Okay, no, no. Go ahead, go ahead. I was just please.

such a huge fan of Michael Jackson growing up, just massive fan. And, um, what was it like? Like, did you talk to the family? Did you talk what was the prep like? Like, and were you petrified because he is such a well known person? I wasn't petrified I mean, ran the

of it. You you know,

family?

the the the moment I I got the offer, I was like, I was like, let me see how he lives in me. And then I started to do some research, cause I'm like, I think I know who Joe Jackson was, but he just seemed like a a typical villain because his eyebrows were up high and all that stuff. He had, like, light blue eyes and crazy looking Jheri curl. And I was like, Let me get beyond that and see, do do some research.

And I really looked at him as sort of, you know, I really looked at him just being a man who was born pre-civil rights, and, you know, to you're very modest and really had, um, limited education, limited access, but he had these kids who have talent. And they they really relied on him to, like, push them to become the best. And I thought, Well, he gave everything he had, I mean, so let me look through the lens of a father.

I'm not gonna look at the lens that everyone else sees him as. How does Joe see himself? And then there was one interview that I thought was very interesting. It's one interview and Joe's sitting there, and they're like, You know, Michael's talked about, you know, Michael's talked about, you know, his abuse, and, you know, how he was he was beat, uh, or what'd he say, and and he would vomit when whenever you came into the room.

And Joe Ju- Joe Jackson literally sat back there with a little smile. He said. He said that, really? Oh, okay. He said, Well, I beat him, but I beat him all the way to the bank. And I was like, And I thought that was interesting because he said, because, you know, child rearing was different back then, and he was like, It was rigor, it was discipline, and I made sure you were the best you could be so you can get out of your circumstance.

So for me, that's how I framed Joe Jackson. And then I went into some and then I went to some conversations with the beautiful thing is Jafar Jackson, who's Jermaine Jackson's son, played Michael. He's incredible, So I had him as such a resource of like, Hey, tell me, you know, how was your relationship with your grandpa? And he said, Oh, pop-pop. And I there was so much love that, you know, whether he or I talked to, um, Marlon Jackson, a few others, and they always said they were like, Oh, he's a complicated man, but, you know, he loved me, and I loved my dad.

And so I wanted to lean into that about about what the family what's behind the closed doors. You know, I saw a video of Joe Jackson Day because they were Jehovah Witnesses, so they didn't have, you know, birthdays or anything, but they had Joe Jackson Day. And it's just a simple video I saw with him sitting around, he and Katherine and the kids and the grandkids. I'm like, Oh, they're just a typical family like anybody else, and I'm sure they have problems like anybody else, and it's a big ass family, so, um, but they're the most successful family, and there would be, honestly, there would be no Michael Jackson or Jackson

Jacksons five?

clan if it wasn't for Joe Jackson. So I feel like I wanted to look Fascinating. at it through Joe's lens, so that's what I did. Yeah. Fascinating Yeah, family. Um, well, uh, Will

Willie, start us at start us at the top. Tell us about Colman. Where did Colman come Well, I, uh, from? Well, And, uh, I no, yeah, we're not even I, I it's fathers. take us through your research. so Colman, So

if I'm I'm if I'm you're you're from West Philly,

yes, born and raised.

uh, is that right? Born and raised, one of 5 kids, is that right?

no, uh, f- four. Four kids, Yeah,

four kids, sorry, one of four kids, one off.

Youngest?

middle boy. I was the youngest for a long time, so they call it the knee baby. So I was, like, 12 years old before my younger brother was born, so I was the baby.

Wait, wait, what's the knee baby?

The knee baby is like you got one on the knee and then you have another one. That's So, yeah, hilarious. I never yeah,

heard that.

And and you had you had, uh, uh, you didn't come from a family of performers, your parents weren't performers, nothing like that, but you had a am I right in saying that? You had a you had a teacher who encouraged you to pursue acting? There was, like, a pivotal teacher in your life, is that true? Do you remember cause, uh, to the teacher?

be, I was v- I mean, it's probably hard for many people to believe this, cause I was very shy. I haven't and I had a lot of, you know, whether I had a lisp, I ha- I was not cool. I was, you know, from, you know, lower middle class family. I was wearing my older brother and older sister's hand-me-down clothes. So, by the time I go to college, I was I just wanted to be something else.

So I started I actually took an acting class as an elective, and cause my mother said, Take something to get you outside of yourself, you know, I know you, she knew me to be a bit more, uh, funnier, and have a bit more personality, but I didn't show it outside. So I took this one class, it was teacher Chris, and, uh, it was just acting 101 at Temple University, uh, when I was, um, studying journalism, another career where I thought, like, Oh, I'm just gonna be a newspaper writer and stay behind the scenes.

You just be on your own Yeah, just be and be

on my own, be in, a dark quiet. You be in a dark just be room, exactly, and and nobody bother me. So but then I took this class, and he said, um, he pulled me aside one day, he said, Hey, have you ever thought about acting as a profession? And I said, I don't even know what I don't even know what you're talking about, like, what is that? What is acting as a profession? You know, my I as the 1st kid in my family to go to college, it I was supposed to go out and get a job, and a job with benefits, you know what I mean?

It was no, like, the idea of being an artist didn't even make sense. So he said, uh, he said, I I'd be very curious if you did, cause he said, I think you have a gift, and I s and I said, Oh, he said, I think you have a gift, and I'd be very curious if you pursued that gift. So it was like a mic drop, and I was like and I didn't know until, um, some friends of mine would tell me, I'm at what at Enneagram 8, which is the challenger.

You know, I like to be I like a challenge, so that was like a challenge. Like, I'd be curious, and I'm like, I like that challenge. So I started taking, I started taking some theater classes off campus from Temple University, cause I didn't I sort of kept it as my little secret. I would take acting classes like breathing exercises and laying on the floor, filling myself up with orange juice and shit like that, all this wonderful stuff.

And I love being in the theater. I was like, Wow, this is what I wanna do. I wanna be in the theater. So I was a theater rat for most of my career, you know, and that was very fulfilling, you know, for and you, W-

eh, yeah, and you were like, I is it true that I I I r- I read somewhere that you, uh, you were you were, uh, working in the theater, but you also had, like, uh, other jobs going on that you I always had would like

I always had hustles, yeah.

you talked about, like, take taking your final bow and 15 minutes later, you're serving drinks.

Oh, yeah, I worked at Manhattan Class Company in New York City, a a beautiful off-Broadway theater. I literally would like, you know, bow in this I did this show with John Randall called Bright Ideas. I'll never forget. It was one of my first off-Broadway shows, and I took took a bow, got up and had it timed. I would get up, rip off my costumes, which I'm sure cost thousands of dollars, you know, call a cab, get over to the 55 bar in the West Village, and suddenly, within 15 minutes, I cause I was like, I I can I have to be late for my shift by 15 minutes, cause, um, the show started at 7:30.

We were done at, like, 8:59, got, you know, over there. Next thing you know, I was like, Hi, what can I get you? I literally walked in the door and

That's crazy.

went straight to the bar, cause I need I need the hustle. I was, m and off Broadway, I was getting paid, like, $350 bucks a week. As, you know, and then, like, I needed, you know, to live in New York, I was like, I had to have that job.

We'll be right back.

And now back to the show.

what w- what was the 1st? So then, what was the 1st gig where you were able to give up that that day job like that, or that that that gap job of wh- whether it was bartending or whatever? Dude, Do you remember?

for for a long time, when I tell you, for a long time, because I think I was always afraid of being broke, I always kept the bartending job, even when I was on Broadway, I would still have, like, Oh, I'm

No way.

no way am dude, I was and I was on Broadway and Passing Strange, and still, like, you know, on a Monday night, I'm like, I'll pick up that shift. Because I was afraid that it wasn't gonna last. I was always it was that roller coaster, and, you know, like, let me just ride this out. But it was for a long I would say, from, like, 20 years of my career, and I've been doing this now for what?

35, 36 years, and I think I think I just stopped having a side job. I think I, I

But I I mean, but, like, but y- but you mentioned, uh, passing you're like, right strange, after this podcast, go back to right? So your ba- I got I

I gotta go pick up a shift, you guys. Like, I don't know if this is gonna last.

but but passing strange so it's funny you mentioned passing strange. That was filmed by Spike Lee, am I right about that?

yeah. But literally, when that show closed, I went back to bartending.

I had to.

Yeah, I I my career was always these highs, has been these highs and lows where I was always doing these shows that were in, um, in my theater career, I was doing these shows that had no intention of going to Broadway. Like I did, um, Shawnee, I did a show called, um, Scapin' Boys at the Vineyard Theater with, uh, Susan Stroman, the the final collaboration between Kander and Ebb. That started out, you know, we went to, uh, off-Broadway at the Vineyard Theater, then we went to the Guthrie.

It it really is these really weird pieces of theater that somehow end up in the commercial space. So then I kept really I was just gonna be an avant-garde actor, and then, like, get a rent-stabilized apartment, and that was fine for me, and then my career started to do other but you were things. Yeah, doing and you're

going all over the place. You were in Australia, you were in, you were in the UK, like, you were, you were really, really very fulfilling, doing it, you know, the theater.

yeah, and I and also, I mean, and that's the thing too, cause I've always I've always been, um, a multi-hyphenate. I've always been a writer, a playwright, I write musicals, or I write plays, I write

Didn't you write?

I direct. Didn't you write I wrote I wrote the I co-wrote the Donna Summer the Donna Summer Musical. Yeah, I co-wrote musical? Yeah, the Donna Summer

that's right.

musical on Broadway. That's I co-wrote a a show crazy. about Nat King Cole that was at the New Theatre Workshop last year. Um, so it's like if pe- people always know that even still, you can knock on my my trailer door and people are like, What are you doing? I'm like, Oh, writing a play or screenplay? Like, it's just like, Amazing. Wow! I just I feel like those are my Jason, what do hobbies, my hobbies are y- you and my work.

Jason too? He's watching TV

What's Jason doing? Colman. Jason, what are you doing?

He's watching, he's watching TV.

My no, my brain. I I was telling that No, that's that's, that's, that's too, that's a shitty question. No, that's a shitty question, no, that's but th- so I'm just gonna ask you, I'm just I just Ask I'm just the serious so, I question, though. Let's start know I'm just there. Let's lean so, I'm just in. so taken with your with your talent, Colman, I I always have been, and and

Me too.

now hearing, and that's why I was so curious as to how how it got started in you, you know, like, w- w- a and I'm always interested in this cause, like, I started before I even knew who I was. I started when I was such a young kid, like this whole notion of pretending to be somebody different was, like, a different thing for me. And to hear that you started at s at at s at such an older age, when you knew who you were, what is it about acting that you really like?

I mean, can you can you tap into, like, where you go when you pretend to be somebody else? Is it about exploring different sides of yourself, and people just get to watch that, or are you conscious of the audience that is that is that is receiving this show, and and and you're performing for them? Does does that make sense? Yeah, I By the way, that's I

a really good question.

that's a great question. It is, Thanks, man. It's not it really it's not a shitty is. question at all. Yeah. No, but you

not shitty at all.

know, what? To try to answer Mine's gonna be, that

Do you have any funny theater stories?

We know we know Sean, like, we know. anything with Ty He's been trying to hold that Daly, anything off.

with Ty Daly and Colman,

Oh my god, I'd give anything. I'd give anything for a Ty Daly story.

Sean was waiting for me, but but, you know, I think that honestly, I feel like Listen, and and and I don't wanna get too sort of erudite about it, but I do Right, that's why think that acting I was just like, is a is a Hey, bit of a service job, it is, but yet is it's incredibly wonderful to feel like I'm very curious about other people, and I think it's also going back to my journalistic roots of, like, me wanting to be a journalist.

I'm like, I wanna find out why people do what they do, and if I can actually now embody it and become that person and do research. Like, I played horrible people, and, you know, I'm sure we all have. I played, um, Mist in the Color Purple, or, you know, and, um, and and a pimp in, um, Zola, um, somebody who sex traffics women. I'm like, that's totally the opposite of me, I'm being such a feminist, but it for me, it's if I find something in them, and I'm like, I wanna find their humanity in there.

And and it always makes me feel closer to people, I guess, maybe. It make me feel like honest I'll be very honest. I feel like, you know, I feel like there's nothing that you know, I'm not somebody who really, who truly believes in, uh, cancel culture, cause I always feel like there's a path. And if we look into the humanity and we really find our commonalities in some way, I feel like it's some something about trying to become more human and kinder, I think.

And yeah. And I think I I mean, also, think you're right.

like, to when you play, like, dark characters like that, or like villains or whatever you wanna call them, you know, that they don't think they're villains or No, not horrible people. at all. No, So the as no, this is long as you're,

the opposite.

they feel just they feel justified. Yeah, and and it it's really interesting finding that part of the character to show to the audience that, Oh my God, look at that look in their eyes, they think they're not doing anything

absolutely, please. wrong. Like, that's a Yeah, fascinating discovery to isn't it?

the audience.

Isn't it?

I love that.

I feel like I don't I don't I I like to lean into people who are so the different different than my own experience, and I feel like that that brings me some joy in some way. If I can tap into that, I think that's a win.

well, there's you're talking about, like, eh, you're also talking about nuance too, like, it's sort of like a joy of nuance, that we there's such a loss of nuance now, uh, you know, I don't think that people and that's kind of the beauty of life, is right? It's like, what are the things that make us there? Like, what are why are you could, like, as you said, with Joe Jackson, like, you could look at him in a binary way, you could go, he did X, Y, and Z, and then he and he was, but no, but why?

There was a thing, and he had re and his mind, he believed it, and that's kind of But and that's exactly interesting, you don't have to so, agree with it, but it's interesting.

cause I love all the questions around it. Because I feel like I think I just I could say it to to you guys, I respect you guys so much, and I've seen all of your work. And I feel like part of this work that I love so much is the research and the detailing and finding the nuances and finding out what makes them tick and and where they live in your body, you know, where they live in your soul in some way, shape or form.

I think that's it's incredibly selfish in a way, too. I feel like that's for me. I wanna f- I wanna unpack all that good stuff, you know?

um, the difference between the your process and the and the uh, doing a character on stage, uh, over a period of months, versus, uh, doing a film or a a series or something like that, where you you're doing that one scene that day, and you'll never do it again, um, y- uh, affects sort of your ability to kinda, like, dig down and and and play different parts of that character. So do you enjoy the theater process more just because you get more time with that character in those situations?

You know what's interesting to me? I I like the idea cause I'm still such a theater actor that, like, the moment I'm cast, I go into research and development, really. I'm say, I'm Sean, you you'd probably agree with this too, like, literally, I can take myself through a 40 hour rehearsal week for myself before I get to set. You know, if I know the the work that I have to get done, I'm like, let me let me get into the gym and work this stuff out, put on my headphones, whatever.

So when I'm on set, I'm loose, I can go anywhere with it. You know, for me,

that's the key.

that that's what I enjoy. I don't like showing up. I don't like showing up and just like, oh, like, thinking that this is gonna be the moment. I'm like, No, I've already I've played it Do you memorize and I

the whole thing, uh, before day one?

I re I memorize at least 90%. I and for me, that's that's a trick for me to feel like it's always still very new, but also I'm a person like, even when we go to set, um, to rehearse a scene, I have the script in my hand. People who don't have a script in their hand, I'm like, I I feel like I need it to still feel like it's I know, it still

makes me nervous when they don't have their script.

it makes me nervous, cause you know, it cause it feels like that they already have an, uh, a way they're gonna do it. And for me, I'm still trying to figure this shit out. I don't know what what Sean or Jason or Will's gonna say or do. I don't know what I don't they're

know how I'm gonna do it until I see what you're doing.

dude, exactly, I'm I'm gonna respond and but but I've done my work. So I've been in the gym working it out, so now I can be available. And so for me, that's that's what feels good, and I like the idea of not being I be I I it's funny, I had to talk about this with a a colleague of mine a couple weeks ago. I think work should be imperfect. I I strive for the imperfections in my work, and so I feel like that maybe that's why I feel like when I when I go to set and the thing the thing that annoys me the most is when, like, you're w- work walking through the scene, and then suddenly the

script supervisor, like, she's like, Oh, you know, the line is, you know, I, it's fine. I'm gonna fuck up the lines for the next, like, 3 takes, but I'm gonna get there.

It'd be different on the next take, But but I'm too. Yeah,

gonna get there. I'm gonna get there because I have I have a an esteem for my work, but I feel like I need to be raw and loose, and I'm trying to figure out how this prop works or whatever. So my brain's going all over the place So y- you you know?

said perfection in your work, do does that spill over into your in your personal life? Oh, yeah, I I

imperfection, imperfections.

in imperfection. Yes, absolutely. But

Oh, really?

also, it it was funny cause I th- I think listen, I literally I don't know, like, why am I telling you guys this? But I guess I I It's just I maybe us. You may be I'm just of certain it just curious, but you know, turns you know, I me on, yeah, there's get to know it just no, we're about all these turns me gonna record things. I don't on.

in a minute.

tell other people exactly, but you know, it's funny cause I think that I realized that I had something dental possibly happen to my teeth, cause I was wearing, uh, some fake fronts when I played by Rustin in Rustin, and I think it sort of, like, made my tooth a little go in. And every time I see it now, cause I'm like, I don't remember that. Has it gotten like that now? Like, what the fuck? So I look in movies and TV, I'm like, What the fuck's going on with my tooth?

And and now I'm just like, but then also, I'm just like, maybe that's alright. I'm like, shoulda got it fixed? But I'm like, No, it's okay, the com- my face is supposed to change, I think.

You're right.

you know what's com? It's so funny you say that. I went to my I went to my dentist, uh, a couple years ago, and he goes, You know what, your your bottom tooth is kinda in a little bit, and I'm gonna get you in the, uh, Invisalign. And I kinda, like, let him, I w- in the chair, I'm just doing a cleaning. I I was like, Okay, and I said, Yeah, and they did the thing, and I got the Invisalign.

I started doing it after a couple days, and then I realized, and then I go, I call him up, I go, I'm done, I'm not doing it. He goes, What, you're gonna fit? And I go, I don't care Yeah, me what my I'm not, I'm too. not a tooth model. I don't give a shit.

yeah, b- and may and maybe that's the thing too, cause I think everybody feels that everyone should be perfect, and I feel like, Oh, maybe that's you know, I feel like I s maybe I wanna have one of those really old, craggy British faces, you know? Me too. Yeah,

yeah, it does. Lots of lines,

Bring it on.

lots of lines in my

Jason, no comment. face. Jason, no comment.

No, I always I always say, it's like, it's a privilege to get older, like, you want to be the most wrinkled person in the world, because that means you've lived a long time. The only way to avoid getting older is to die. So, I mean, anyone complaining about getting old is You gotta write like, I mean,

that down.

if we talk about a binary That choice, you're either getting older or you die, like, which do you want?

and and and right, and and we can and we can get older in a in a in a in the best way, we could take care of ourselves and what we have and all that shit, but I feel like the idea of vanity, I feel like I don't wanna have the vanity that, like, I don't know, that's outside of Distracting. myself. I'm like, Ah, f- It's it Yeah, exactly, I'm like,

becomes distracting.

Ah, look at I look at myself, I'm like, Ah, look, not too bad for 56. I'm doing alright, you know?

yeah, same. That's how I I'm

Exactly. Beautiful.

56 as well.

uh, don't you feel? Uh-huh.

Yeah, and I, you know what I realized the other day. I was like, I've got these these are laugh lines. This means that I laugh a lot. Man, am I lucky. I like well, get to live my life laughing that one, a lot. Jason,

that one, not so much.

Jason, Jason.

Jason's looking looking at plastic surgery for you right now, as we speak.

N- n- no, but it but just like a night light laser, I just did a light laser, just a light laser, Just get that, right, a real like, Hey, um, you know, uh, Colman, I wanted to ask you about it's funny. So you did all this stuff. I mean, you've done so many d y- your credits are insane, and and, i you know, all this theater and film and television. And then there was that period you did, you did, uh, uh, Selma, and you did, uh, the Butler.

And I read somewhere that you said after that, that for a minute, you felt like there wasn't as much work coming your way in film that in TV that you wanted, and you almost thought of, like, giving up on film and TV. Is that true? And that and that and then right, and then you c- went right into the fear of the walking dead. Is that right about that well, well, the wild timeline?

thing is, I was booking a lot of these sort of, like, you know, small roles in big films, like whether with, um, Steven Spielberg or Lee Daniels or Ava DuVernay, or s Steven Soderbergh, you name it. But they were looking at me from, like, being a theater actor in New York. I was booking this stuff when, like, I I would go in and sign in, you know, to go and sign in, and, like, I had, like, the most boutique agent that no one ever knew about, up against CAA and WME and all that stuff.

And so I felt like I, uh, I was rare. I was getting in there because of my theater work, and so I would go and get these smaller roles and everything. And it was fulfilling enough, but then after I was when I was entering my mid 40s, I was about 44 years old, and I went to London on the West End and did Scopspro Boys, came back, and I was getting these auditions, like, you know, under 5.

And I was like, This doesn't make any sense. And I was, like, living in Manhattan Plaza, New York City, you know, rent-stabilized apartment. And I was, like, you know, I was I was making it as an artist, but I just thought, like, man, I I think, you know, I have friends who are doctors and lawyers, and they have 401Ks and shit. And I was like, I'm still living like a teenager. I'm like, maybe I maybe I need to do something else.

And then I had a succession of auditions that felt like they were going nowhere. And they were breaking me, breaking me, breaking me. And then, of course, that was back when they had a pilot season. So, of course, there's months where they say you you're not supposed to go anywhere. I would just defy that shit. I'm like, I'm gonna go fucking Australia and do my solo show. Fuck that. So I would go to these meetings. So I was doing a lot of work and getting some tr- minimal traction, and then I s just tried to make a a stronger decision.

But this decision was because of after some heartbreak, too. I think I was just I felt after a while, so getting disrespected from the auditions that I was the the things that I was being offered or being part of or not be a part of. And I was like, I just want to get off of it, and I and I feel like I just wanted to stop before I was brokenhearted about the thing that I love the most.

So I was gonna and you would've get out.

gone just primarily, uh, exclusively to theater.

No, I was actually gonna leave the industry, period. You were? Okay, what we what Oh, fully,

we what were we gonna I had I go do?

had a side hustle as a headshot photographer. Dude, Really? Wow, I killed it. I

come on.

was making money. I was just doing everybody's Wait, a headshot.

second. But are people still I'm like, I getting headshots

need some new headshots.

taken?

No, this is bad. Just back in I maybe

the day?

I don't know. It's the probably not the 3, probably not the 4 of us exactly. But yeah, yeah, dude, I would do headshots, like, and, like, I would make like $300 here, $300 here. I was doing everybody's headshots in New York. wait, so you'd show Headshots

up with your camera and a tripod and a and a roll of seamless or would they would come with you? I they would What? What's the

come, they would come to a

setup?

to do se what's the headshots. backdrop. The backdrops. Yeah, dude, I You know, I, no, I would set I would set it up in my apartment, and people come over and I would do their headshots.

I would love it.

Dude, and so I was gonna If you were gonna have a I rock that, was gonna have a headshot business and just like stay with that cause it was l- lucrative. I felt artistically fulfilled.

It's a great way to meet people.

Yeah, and also I felt like again, I I didn't wanna be so downhearted about this industry, cause I loved it so much. So I was willing to leave it.

so glad we didn't lose you. Oh, thanks, but but

I know. then but then like

like you’re saying, but then like, I had to do some strategic things, like I as I was leaving this industry, one of my dearest friends, uh, Daniel Bricker, he said, Hey, you know, my manager's been wanting to meet with you for a long time. And I was like, Nah, I'm good, I'm I just let go of my manager, I'm I'm letting go of my agent next week, he said. Just meet with them. And I went in there and I was the I was not my most effervescent self.

I really sat there, arms folded and just like, they were like, Oh, so, tell us about you. I'm like, Well, this is what I do. I do this, this, da da. But I thought I just it was a bad, bad meeting for me, and they were like, Well, we'd love to take you on. I said, Alright, let's see, let's see if we can give it 6 months and see what happens. And literally, they said, the first thing we have to do, we have to change your agent.

And so I was, um, my literary agent was at Gersh, and they and then eventually, they moved me over to Gersh. And I went to for my first couple auditions because I knew this is what I knew. I knew that my auditions weren't being seen. I knew I really knew how to do a good self tape, but I had no access or agency. So, literally, within a month, I booked Fear the Walking Dead and, uh, Boseman's The Get Down, uh, so 2 series leads.

I had to choose, I had to make a Sophie's choice, and I chose the thing that was the weirdest thing because that's me. I chose Fear the Walking Dead. I'm like, What is that? I didn't know about The Walking Dead or anything. But, um, I was like, I feel like I wanna go on that road to figure out this character. The character was written, he was written, like, you know, Richard III, his 1st monologue. And I was like, Oh, this is interesting.

And then I went on to the do that show for 8 seasons, and I was the longest running character on there. In directing, Yeah,

too, JC.

oh, then I directed it and produced it, yeah.

The new age the new crazy. agent pushed those auditions through and got them seen.

yeah, oh, yeah, because also this new agent, um, her name is Elizabeth Weaverstein, and she she said, Uh, oh, I have an audition for you for something for it's a Walking Dead franchise. I was like, I don't even know what know what that is. Again, I was a bit more a bit a bit of a snob, to be honest, when it comes to television work, cause I didn't think at the time they were writing, at least for this face, very complex roles, you know, for them to before.

So I usually I mean, my experience with television up to then was being, you know, auditioning for every episode of, like, Nash Bridges or something, playing a character called To Cool Whip Tyrell. Um, you know what I mean? And so th- so I just, like, I gave up on that. I'm like, Nah, they're not writing for me. I think I can do better work in the theater, you know?

right, I get it. So then you started directing Fear the Walking Dead. Yeah, is that so I what you said?

started directing and producing. amazing. But listen, I'm but listen, amazing. y- you know why? Because I'm someone like, because I think maybe it's the way I was built. It's like I walk into a room, I can't just be an actor. I've gotta figure out how we're doing this whole thing, how we're making it. And so I it that came from Gail Ann Heard. She came and saw on a hiatus, I was directing a production of Robert O'Harris Barbecue at the Geffen Playhouse, and I invited, uh, my executive producer, Gail Ann Heard to come and see it, and she says, Have you ever thought about directing TV?

And I was like, Nah, not really. And she says, I think you y- y- again, someone else says it to me. I think you may have a skill set for that. And so I said I I was curious about it, so I started shadowing on my own show for the next year, and then they gave me my first episodes to direct and how did you episode.

like it? Was it comfortable?

I loved it. I think you love it too, don't you? Cause you're Oh, love you're a beautiful director, it, just, uh, I man. I love

do, I love it so

loved it. much. How would I fell in you did you love

lo- so you had been directing in the theater, but now you've got now you got a camera, um, and now you have to guide the audience's perspective and all that stuff and lenses and lighting and all that stuff. Was that did you have a good partner? S uh,

I did I at first, I cinematically didn't. I, uh, or, yeah, cinematically did, like Andrew Bernstein, who's a beautiful television

oh my god, I love director. Isn't Andrew Andrew. Yeah, yeah, wonderful? He really yeah, yeah, yeah.

was he really was my mentor in many ways, and really just, like Isn't he a he's

sweet man? a sweetheart So talented.

and so talented. And so I I was just working with these guys who were, like, willing to give me any amount of information. And talk about lenses, talk about lighting, talk about, you name it, how to tell the story, how to prep. And I just, like, I just soaked it all in, man, and then it just felt right and natural. But also what I love about maybe this is what I love, cause I'm d I direct on my show now for on 4 seasons.

What I love is being sort of the cheerleader for all these smart people and coming up with a vision and saying, we're gonna get behind this. I like the idea of trying to make a day. I love being up yeah, man, against you're back against the wall. I, you know what I mean? But I but I love the enthusiasm and the encouragement to make something

I love that.

happen, you know?

Ha- have you ever wanted to develop or create something for yourself or have you? And I just don't know?

I have, I have, uh, we I've been, yes, I, and it's funny, cause I'm we're developing something now, uh, for Netflix, uh, a show called, Um, Headliners House, and so that that's for me and some and Okay, good. some people are you gonna that

direct that too?

I probably, yeah, it's funny, I they they ask me about that, but I feel like it's it's a central character, and I feel like I I like the idea of sometimes laying back, letting another creative come in here. I don't wanna do everything at times, you know, unless I really feel like I didn't really it's a I don't yeah, Jason, know if I have a he doesn't handle on feel the need this. No, to control Jason, I don't feel anybody.

He does. All the like I have a

time, Jason. handle on this God,

But but what would you sorry, say about? Colman, he just But what

has to control everything.

would you say about about directing yourself? Do you find it complicated, or do you find the opposite? Do you find that it's efficient in

it's efficient.

that that actor's kinda reading your mind?

It's efficient. And I also

Yeah, it's efficient.

know how to I feel, like and you probably know this as well too, I feel like, because I feel like I really know how to prep well. And then also, I'm okay with also, you know, I will have my handheld monitor, take a look at that. I can judge my own performance, but also I don't mind listening to my EPs and just, like, anything else you need, and the writers, whatever. So I'm collaborative in that way, and so and and I know how to if something's not even happening in the scene, I can be fully present in the scene, and then suddenly, Okay, we're and then direct, we're gonna do a pickup and, like, Hey, try this here, blah, blah,

blah, whatever. I'm gonna do this, but and then we go again, you know, yeah, no, you're I love it, you know,

that's great.

don't don't you? That's a But don't you do the same thing, Jason? How do you feel about I can't, I it? Yeah,

cannot get enough of it. It's just, it's a yeah, and I hobby. don't know, I mean, yeah, but like, thank God, you know, that that, you know, uh, speak for the 4 of us here, that we're at a point in our in our careers, uh, thank God, that, um, our our ambition is matched with our access. You know that, you know, you were speaking earlier about, you know, uh, all the talented friends that you have and and maybe are without access, like like you were at one point.

My heart breaks for those people. There's so many people that are incredibly talented, far more talented than some that are, uh, that are enjoying success, that just simply can't get in the door. They can't get their tape seen. Um,

well well, think about, yeah, think about Colman, how long you he, he, you just described how long it took. You were in your 40s, you were doing, oh, you built all this. I was thinking about you built this incredible career. You have this e- in in in incredible CV of all these different roles and in in various things in film and TV and stage, and then you do Euphoria, and, th- for whatever reason, because that show is is just such a part of the sort of culturally part of the fabric right now, that show is so popular, and it feels like that was the show was, like, kinda you're coming out to the a broader audience.

And everybody's like, Colman Domingo's amazing, you win the Emmy and all this sort of stuff, and you're like, Hey man, I've been building this shit for 25 years. Right? A little bit,

It It kinda a little A one-night it it bit,

success, yeah.

kinda feels that way. But also, it took, like for me, it took people like Sam Levinson, and I I wonder if you guys agree here. It took someone who wrote he wrote the triple Axel for me. He wrote something where he thought, Oh, Colman can deliver this, not something that, like, oh, like, he wrote it for me, which is beautiful. So he he knew the things I could do, and he also knew the things that probably scared me, and I wondered if I could do, but he get but he believes in me, so which that that's what feels good, and I feel like the things that I started to get more recognition for, I've really been under the hood with,

whether it's, um, the film Rustin or something like that, where I've I've I've actually been able to to do the thing that I knew that I do I do best. I've never been I would always say this, and I I wonder if you guys agree for yourselves cause you're all multi-hyphenates. I never thought that, like, I'm I'm not that great to just be the actor that's hired to just, like, come hit the marks and leave. I'm like, I wanna know how we're making it.

You wanna contribute?

Yeah, I wanna contribute. How we making this?

wanna leave?

I wanna make I exactly, I wanna I wanna I show up to, you know, sometimes I'll show up to set and just, I'm gonna see how things are, I wanna watch how we're doing that scene. I wanna know how the eng- my engine will work with that as well, but also, I'm just curious about the whole process, you know? Yeah, which makes

you a better soldier, right? I mean, if you know what's going on in other departments, yeah, you can figure out how to maybe fill in the margins a little bit when and when appropriate. Yeah,

It feels good.

we'll be right back.

And back to the show.

It sound, you know, you're saying before you, you l- you spent so long living like a teenager, when, um, when stuff really started to change for you, how did you, were you comfortable with the integration of a d a different a different rhythm of life, both both in in time, and also in in luxury, and in travel, and in, um, and and privacy, and and all those things, how is how is success, um, uh, wearing on you?

That's a great question, and I think even in the last few years, I've had to make some new agreements, in a way. One was even when where I live now, I live in this gated community in Malibu, and I didn't know I needed it. I I went to, um, actually, Denzel Washington's house, he was renting a house out in Malibu, and it was after I was nominated for Rustin, and he said, uh, he said, Hey, so, uh, and we were hanging out for like 3 hours, and he says, um, I said, Oh, I gotta get back to.

I was living in Downey, um, this little suburban town, and lovely neighbors

far away.

didn't mean me, yeah, exactly, southeast LA. And I loved it, and I lived there for like 8 years while I've been do on shows and stuff like that. And I said, Uh, oh, I'm headed back home. He said, Where do you live? I said, I live in Downey. He said, What's that? I said, Oh, it's a little southeast, um, suburb. He was like, Hm. You been there for a while? I was like, Yeah, he's like, you have gate?

I was like, Yeah, I have gate. He says, Uh, you know, you're gonna have to move, right? I said, Why? And he said, You'll notice that things change, and you'll need you'll need a little less access, and you have to figure you have to navigate that for yourself, how you have access. And he was right, cause things start to change, where I realized I needed more privacy to just be and to just and for me, where I live now, is like, really just like, I really just get to be and just be a person and not That's be, uh, not being an actor or anything like I like the the the question that I i that I still navigate when

whenever I see somebody out in the world, they're like, Hey, what are you up to? I'm like, Oh, I'm just going for a walk here, but they wanna know your CV, what you're up to. I'm like, No, I'm that's actually not me all day long, you know what I mean? Or like, and I feel like it it is I've learned because I think because it's happened later for me, um, first of all, I'm extremely grateful, and I'm so happy that when people see me, I know I get something that a lot of people don't.

People wanna hug me all the time. They the people want they're like, Oh my god, could I have a hug? I've I've never, and really, and, uh, my colleagues are they're like, Wow, peop- people wanna hug you. Whatever it that is that I give off, I feel like I'm very grateful for that, that people wanna connect like that. But also, well, you're I

not an asshole. No, no, I I like that. don't, no, no, I Yeah, try, I, you no, and

know, I try. I try every day to be a good person, you know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't and and your characters, for I,

you've you've done, you you've had, like, a such a run of, like, enormously, uh, emotionally demanding performances that you've delivered, like, just with, uh, a plum, shall I say? And and it yeah, and and I think that that probably translate. I th- I think that that probably speaks to, uh, w- and I'm asking more, uh, i are are these the kind of things that you look for now? The the you cause it seems to me, talking to you, that you're a person who is looking for that kind of emotional connection, I am I, constantly.

I, I am, I think that's maybe that's it, that all makes sense to me. I feel like I I can even, you know, we we start getting to this age, is where sometimes you get, like, sort of a retrospective of your work, you're supposed to talk about, and you're like, Oh my God, I can now see the thread that I'm I'm interested in being deeply human and and connecting with other people, and I feel like that that's in e- everything that I do.

I feel like the the blessing is I was able to now doing this show 4 seasons, that makes me feel like there's a bit more of a lighthearted humor, and I don't have to sort of carry the weight. Because I know that, I'm sure we all, I we go deep when we go, like, into a deeper expression of human pain or anxiety, and I feel like I'd been doing that for so long, is that I need to just look, wear a cute sweater and anything.

give way, banter, that yeah, but yeah.

I mean, you got, but but then you got you got Tina Fey, you got Tina I could see Fey, that. the awesome, Tina Tina Fey, oh Fey.

my god, she's horrible. Oh, Tina Yeah, Fey, she's so terrible. not smart and talented Will Ferrell,

and funny at all. Steve Carell, Oh, Will Ferrell,

Ah, monsters.

don't even sh- all these Monster. people are just

Yeah, what about that? Ori- that ass. original 4 Seasons? The film is one of my favorite favorite I love that films of Yep, but okay, one. all time. you and I, okay, Um,

you, me, you, all of us, Tina Fey, we were like, what, 10 watching that movie? Why were we watched it a lot, watching that movie when we were that age?

because, uh, cause I think cable had just kinda gotten started, and it was one of those films that It was a was in heavy

prison or something. rotation. Yeah, Uh-huh, okay,

and and, uh, I just, and then all the, you know, the Vivaldi all the way through it, obviously, that is just, like,

but we were kids watching, mesmerizing. I guess watching a show about, like, our parents or there's a lot something.

of those, like, ordinary people we watch.

Yeah, I watched it all the time. yeah, the Alan

Yeah, ordinary.

Alda and and, uh, Jack, was it was Jack Weston, Jack Weston, right? Um, yeah, and, um, oh, I just Rita Moreno love that movie, so and But did you Cab great. and guys, e- Yeah, Colman

Ye- go ahead, Sean. I I was gonna say, go ahead, but do you mind if I just ask this? It just occurs

great?

to me as you sort of talk about this and being of a certain age, we're all of a certain age here in in our mid to late 50s, shall we say? Uh, all of us could play late 40s, oh, without by the way, Yeah, you could

a doubt.

really. They would look amazing. As Matt Yeah, without Smith 2030 a doubt. Yeah, So I can go yeah, with with good lighting, good lighting, you see, I was adjusting with good lighting this in the and a bounce in the beginning, I was adjusting this like crazy. I was like, with a Let me

bounce with a bounce card under here, you know? Um, and I might have Jason, you might have to Hollywood it underneath or, uh, frame

you just fly it in portable. there, sure.

But yes, but but it is there anything, like, in your life, like, I, I've been going through this thing, being now, uh, being 56, I, I, uh, there's so many, uh, just kind of things that I've laid down, that I've just stopped, that I've sort of, like it's taken me a long time to kinda get there. And I was wondering, do you have you guys been noticing that that you're just, like, stripping stuff you know, letting away, yeah, go of things?

shit that you don't do anymore.

Yes, yeah, for sure.

yeah, like, like, I'm I'm way less judgmental than I was 2 years ago. I'll I'll go for way less judgmental than I was 2 years ago, and I see it so much, and I'll be in a conversation with somebody, I'll go, Does it need to be said? Does it need to be said right now? Does it need to be said by me? Like, I just kinda let it go, Yeah, you don't

you cause you you don't have to comment on everything, you you can just be like, Okay, cool. Is that the way you feel? Cool, great. Do you guys feel that way?

yeah. I do find Will, uh, Willie, uh, building on yours, I I found that I'm I'm trying to be less judgmental in a way of just, ah ah, it's sort of a lazy crutch for conversation, you know, like, I rarely f- sin- I'm rarely sincere about my judgment, and it's more about, like, Oh, well, let's just bond, kinda like fucking dragging this person and talking shit about this film or the or or or this, like, like, the for some reason, criticism kind of became kind It's a great of this, uniter, yeah.

uh, fuel, yeah, or gossip, uh, that,

the gossip.

yeah, ex- gas exactly, another

that's interesting.

another term for it, exactly, just as, like, well, it's it's it's you feel like you're getting closer with that other person, or you're signaling to that other person, Hey, we, ooh, it's just between you and me, or we're getting closer, and it's kind of a, you know, it's it's lazy, um, uh, to be honest, so yeah, so and you and I

you feel shitty.

yeah, yeah, whe- yeah, when you don't even believe it, and you you're not, you don't mean it, it's just like, well, instead of coming up with something that could bond you, that's a little bit more positive on a different subject, I'm now I'm now reaching for that.

Let me tell you guys something about a few years ago, I was walking around with this this older older woman, and she said, Well, how old are you? I said, Uh, I'm I'm at the time, I was like 52 or something. She says, Oh, okay, you're in your storytelling season. I said, What's that? She says, Right now, you're it's important for you to tell a story tell a story about yourself that that lasts until you're 50s.

I said, When you hit your m mid-50s to early 60s, you move into your truth-telling season. I was like, What's that? She says, If you don't wanna do something, you just say no. I said, Wait, just no? She's like I said, No qualifier. She says, You just say no because you're not responsible For the way other People feel about something.

I love that.

Isn't that dope? Yeah, yeah. So So I was like, I Moved So I I sort of jettisoned right to that that season. I was like, This I'm gonna move right there. That's that feels good. Yeah. I've told enough stories. I'd like to get into the true Tale.

No is a fine yeah, no is a fine answer as long as you s as as you say it in a kind way, and You just take a s just take a second to just message it the right way, and and then it gets Received the way you intend You know, I It.

I agree.

I I equate, like, um I've kind of if people come over for dinner, like I have friends that I haven't seen or people in the business that have, and they have a dinner at my house, I used to be, like, Oh, shoot, uh, how do you get to how do you get them out of your house? 'Cause it's different than going to a restaurant. 'Cause at a restaurant, the check is the end of The of the night.

But when they come over, they could be there for 5 hour hours, they could be there an hour, What do you do Like, you don't know. So now I'm at the age, I just go, Guys, I'm going to bed. Thank you for having me. I mean, that's it. I've literally That's it. I gotta

Watched people God.

Go to bed.

Do you guys know Chris Hardwick? I've been to his e- literally, I watched him one day. He we were sitting around outside, it was wonderful and lovely. He goes up, he comes down, like, in pajamas, and he starts That's what I Cl- he starts Do. That's my Turning on the lights. Move. Wha- you do that?

Yeah, my move is just I was like, To g- is to go up go upstairs and change and come back down. Yeah, so It's like

Turn on the lights. I'm like, What? Like, what? Wait, Sean, you'd love Sean. By the way, Colman, I always say that Sean is he's he always wants to be, uh, only in, like, in the place that he's not in now. He always wants to be somewhere else, but I will say this, Sean, I've I went I found this Restaurant on the Side of Long Island on Long Island with the kids. Sure, anxiety. Um, a and I I we went to this restaurant, I found, and they had on the table a QR code.

So you could eat your dinner, and then they were like, Oh, and they I I hit the QR code, and you can just ch- self-checkout, do the tip, do everything right there. You don't have to have your waiter come over,

That's great.

And it became my favorite

That's great.

Place to go this summer That's the best 'Cause I go with Rule. The kids, we'd eat, and I'd be like, Boom, we're out. That's fantastic. Yeah, I I was like,

Do, too. I I like, Amazing. No more Like, Yeah, no more

Nice to Seamless.

Small talk.

Ye- No no more asking Yeah. For the check. No, no, we're waiting. Then they go, they bring it back, and the thing, and then And They need that Then you're Like, Then you're In Europe, Hey, you're dinner Done. Um, For real, they need that in Europe Because you can never

Yeah. I know.

Get a check. That's exactly I'm like, Right. I just Oh my god.

W- when I was in London last They don't want Year, I'm, like,

You to leave.

How many how many trips back and forth are we doing till I pay the bill? It's endless. Wait, Colman, do you have any horrible gone wrong theater Yeah, we we need Stories? One before we Just like

Let you go.

One, like, something where, like, the set collapsed or Somebody Somebody In the audience Vomited or somebody Died Passed or s anything like that, like, somebody That's what A real funny

You're great. One. Oh, no, hilarious No.

One, somebody had a stroke in the middle of a scene, No, no, no, Um, no, well, no, I might my stir No, I don't know if I've That's okay. I I

About going up on a line?

No, but, I I won't say this, but I had okay, in in in London, listen, people do things a little differently on stage, like, they Sure. Will go in between

There you go.

Yeah. Shows, if you're an old school actor, you'll go to the pub and come back completely pissed, doing the show, and I'm like and I look at my fellow actor, Yeah. Tha- I'm like, He's his f- face is beat red, I'm like, This this dude is drunk. Yeah, and he would go Yeah.

You can smell it. Yeah.

Up on his lines, my lines were always after his, I'm like, This motherfucker. You know? It's like, I was kinda Yeah. Like, trying to saving the scene, I'm like, Oh my god. But, really, but it was okay with him because it might because he's a legendary actor, and he just was a little drunk. But they They're like, Yeah. But they're like, Yeah, what are you gonna do? He but they were all, like, cool about it. They're like, He went to the pub.

I'm like, Wait, that's not Did I The point here.

Hear you say, eh, you've got a you've got a one-man show that you do sometimes, do you ever fear, um, uh, going up on your lines when you got no one out there to help you?

Oh, I did go over my lines, I went up over my lines at the Vienna Theater, and it it devastated me. I was mortified, but I went up twice 'cause I went up on the same thing, I had to restart the show, and then I went up again, but I realized, Okay, this is not to bring the mood down. I realized it was the anniversary of my parents' passing, and it this show that I was doing was all about my family, and then I thought I was performing the show beautifully, but suddenly something clicked and was like, Oh, no, you have to feel the show.

And I kept going up, and then I was racing through the show to get to the end, I was like 'cause I I was on adrenaline, I'm like, I can't go up on lines. So, I was performing probably like a fucking maniac for like 90 minutes. I left that show, and I was just like, Oh my god, oh my god, I felt, like, crazy 'cause I'd never gone up on a show, but then I realized, and my own, you know, psychotherapy that I was like, Oh, I'm not actually dealing with this event that I don't have my parents anymore, and I realized That, yeah, Yeah, yeah.

And Exactly.

The next night, you were okay?

Yeah, the next night, I was okay, but but to me, to be honest, i there was a breakthrough, because I realized and, really, the the beautiful thing is sometimes you have these breakthroughs, as we do, as performers, you're like, Oh, I was performing it, I wasn't really living it, so now I have to live it, And that was the joy 'Cause suddenly I had A breakthrough, and it it changed me as a performer as well, it was like, You'll have a Okay

Better chance of remembering all your lines if you're living it As opposed to performing it. Gotcha. Okay. Absolutely, and

Yeah, for sure.

Like Yeah, 'cause you have no choice, because it 'cause everything makes sense that you're Saying. You're not trying to, like, pr- right, you're not trying to just Yeah. I was doing it more for I it was more outside in, instead of inside out, and so I feel like That really changed Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you and but uh but also, I think that those mishaps, any mishaps we have in our work, I I really

The magic.

Just try to look at it, it's that magic, it's that Thing that, like, you'll never Get back, and you're like, but if we lean into it, it's something that can transform you, you know?

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, and what goes back yeah, the im- the imperfection, the thing that that where it's not it's not corporate, you're not trying to hit something, you're not it's just, like, i it the it's it's the beauty of the thing, and and the and the most beautiful things are imperfect in that way.

Yeah, Colman, I sent this sto- I sent this story before, but, um, the one man show I just did, I you know, you're playing 10 different people, and the line was, I buzzed the door, and Larry answers, right, is one of my lines, and then I go into Larry, who different person, and I was actually was, like, show 60, 70, whatever, and I was actually waiting for whoever was playing Larry to talk. And I was like And, I my mind I just check I checked out, you know what I mean?

I was like, I buzzed the door, Larry answers, and I was just waiting for I go, Oh, shit. I'm Larry, I'm Larry Oh, it's

Me. Oh, it's me. Oh, I'm Larry.

It was crazy. Anyway.

Oh my god. I think solo shows are the are the most terrifying things, though, to be Of course, Honest, so, like Like, stand-up

For sure. Comedy is hard, It's electrifying.

Oh, god. Yeah. I mean, I feel like we Could talk to you forever, you are, uh, the col- what a delight to get to know you, Man, uh, honestly,

It was great.

Just been such a fan for such a long time, so it's just really A thrill to have you today. Well, I loved to have this because I I really admire and, like, adore you guys so much, and I was

Well, likewise.

Like, Well, I'd love to hang out with them and, like, you know, hopefully become friends, you know? Likewise, Man, Yeah, Yeah, man, I Man, it was Know. And when I see Great. Yeah, y-

You, I'm gonna hug you.

Please hug me. Yes.

Yeah, me too.

I'm gonna hug you too.

It'll be a huddle.

By the way, we're looking for more friends. We're looking for more Friends, so you better you better I'm in it, I'm Be In it, I'm in it. Great. Okay. Thank you guys so much. pal. Thank you for coming

Good to see you. On, Colman. Appreciate Good to see you.

You guys. Thank Thank you, I You, Colman. You Colman. Alright, pal, have Guys are wonderful.

A great day. Bye, bye, bye, Sure. See you later. Bye. Bye.

How great is he?

Well, I I yeah. Uh, so glad you Ugh. Brought him on, Willie. Yeah, the I I was Energy. I love So yeah.

His energy.

He's just he's just got so much, I mean, he's just like, that guy is that guy's an artist, man. That dude's an Artist. Yeah, as Do you guys believe

Must be.

In, like, a and and and I'm, you know, I'm

Here we go.

S look looking at a computer here, um, e- d k- that I was s still feeling, like I don't mean to sound all, uh uh uh, you know, unicorns and and, uh, rainbows, but, like, that there was a vibe, do you guys feel, like, that you get a vibe from Somebody, and then, like, That that person's a match for you? Like, I Would get along with that Person, or, you Know, when it happens in person, you just end up always getting on with that person, it's not because of anything they particularly said or It's just it's just a vibe, and it Like, do You think that that's, like, a real thing, or is it am I not am I just

a a dingbat?

No, I mean, that's that's why You that's why you create a relationship with somebody, But, like, Right, 'cause you

Is it animal, you know, like, uh 'Cause I feel, like, you know, without communication, I feel like animals do that, you ever see, like like dogs when they just, like, stare at each other and they'll, like they'll start, like like, immediately, just, like but it's not they're not giving any any signal or any words Right, they just Beforehand, like, is there Know. Some sort of s a silent communication That that exists between 2 beings at times that are a match or not match?

I think so. Yeah. I think

So, man. Hey, dude, are you going through something right now?

If you guys could just call me after this Um, no, I By the way Feel I feel

By the way, what if Like I You're what if you're, like what if you're like, Yeah, I feel that, and then you, like, you got his number, and you're like, Hey, Colman, man, I feel like we should hang out, blah, blah, blah, and he's like, Yeah, just sorry, man, I'm not feeling it. Fuck you, You know? Denton.

You know what's so funny, by the way, I didn't even I didn't even realize, um, we were both in The Running Man, the Edgar Wright movie, Right? And Oh, yeah, I When when when Edgar Loved Said I forgot to bring it up, but when Edgar called me, he was like, Do you wanna play the game show host? I was like, Oh my god, yeah, that's such a great part, and then he I got the script, and it was just the opening game show host, and Colman played The game show, the actual

Ed your show would have

Part, yeah.

Been more specific. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but

He was fantastic in that too, even Yeah, he An in everything.

Always is. Never terrible.

Anyway, um, but you know, he he's very

There you go. Funny.

Oh, boy. By the way, God, God. You gotta get better It's so embarrassing About that. It's always For you. The same. I know So It is. But, But he goes You know, Like this, but he goes, and you see him, like, he goes, but, um, but, you know,

Yeah, and then he looks on

Look at me.

His computer where he's sort

I know.

Of halfway written it out. Go ahead.

Right, so, um, you know, he's in The Walking Dead, or The Fear The Walking Dead, you Know, and It he's in a very famous episode called Days Gone Bye.

God, you had to dig deep for that one, bye.

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