Martin McDonagh Has a Vision for Hope. It's Not for the Faint of Heart.

I'm Peter Baker, I'm chief White House correspondent for The New York Times. I cover the president of the United States, and I've covered every president since 1996. The pressure on an independent press today feels greater than at any time I've seen it in four decades as a journalist. All that pressure, though, is just a reminder of why journalism matters. Our job is to bring home facts, help our readers understand what's happening, regardless of what the consequences may be to us.

And if they punish us, so be it. We will still go out there and report as honestly and aggressively and fairly and truthfully as we can. I mean, look, if the New York Times were not at the White House asking the hard questions, looking for stories behind the stories, trying to understand what's going on, it's possible these questions don't get asked. Independent reporting requires resources. You can support it by subscribing to the New York Times at nytimes.

com subscribe.

I was brought up having to watch English plays, which, like people drinking cups of tea for two and a half hours. And I, I, I always wanted to shoot them.

I'm David Marchesi, and today I'm interviewing Academy Award winning filmmaker Martin McDonagh. McDonagh writes and directs Darkly, Funny, Profane,

This is just a fucking start. Why don't you put that on your good morning Missouri fucking wake up broadcast?

violent and stylish movies. Films that seem to want to make you laugh as much as provoke you. Like The Banshees of Inisherin or Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, and his latest Wild Horse Nine, about two CIA agents played by Sam Rockwell and John Malkovich.

And who the fuck are you? The CIA?

We are the CIA, actually, we're totally the CIA.

We're not the CIA.

His work is full of ideas I wanted to ask him about how he sees politics, provocation and his own legacy. Here's my conversation with Martin McDonagh. But first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. You can now explore the Times for free without paywalls during your first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview. Martin, thank you for taking the time to be here.

I appreciate it.

Thanks, David, good to be here.

So the the two main characters in Wild Horse Nine, played by Sam Rockwell and and John Malkovich, are this is not giving anything away. They're CIA agents who have been sent to destabilize Chile's democracy after President Allende was elected. And this, of course, is is based on, you know, real world American misadventures in Chile. And this movie is coming out in the middle of a broader conversation, uh, and a broader argument over sort of how America's place in the world is understood, you know, and o.

And often that comes down down to a sort of binary. Is America a force for good or a force for bad? H How do you see America's place in the world?

Oh gosh, uh, like, right now, I'm not sure. I guess we're all a little bewildered about that, like what it stands for, what it doesn't. But I guess in a way, the the the film explores a time when, uh, seemingly America's place in the world was as the good guy, I guess, which is kind of what I think most kids in the West, you know, not just in the US, but in the UK and Ireland, um, Western Europe.

I was sort of brought brought up to feel that, you know, that the CIA are the good guys and the KGB are the bad guys, that America's the good guy and Russia's the bad. But the more more I sort of read up about what the CIA were up to throughout the end of the last century, and particularly with this film in Chile, you know, to, um, destabilize and help overthrow a democratically elected government, which ended up in fascist tortures for 15 years.

Um, makes you think that you're not being told quite the truth about the West, uh, and its moral outlook, I guess.

Did, um, Malkovich's politics play into h his performance at all? Because my, I mean, I think he sort of rejected politics wholesale. I think he said he hasn't voted since 1971 or something like that.

yeah, we didn't really have con um political conversations, uh, but I I think we share the same questioning, um, disbelieving point of view. Uh, yeah. So I think that's probably what kept us, um, on the straight and narrow in terms of who this guy was. Weirdly, though, this the guy is sort of the opposite to total opposite of what we believe in, you know, he's been a proper government operative for many years, doing pretty terrible things over the years.

But none of my characters are ever mouthpieces for my politics or or the opposite. You just have to find them and let them become themselves and let them talk, and when they start getting dangerous, um, it just becomes more exciting.

But uh uh, I just wanna f press on something just a little bit. You said your characters are never mouthpieces for your politics, um, and maybe maybe the operative word there is is m mouthpiece, which, uh, yeah, no writer wants one of their characters to be a a mouthpiece. That's that sounds like a sim something simplistic, but surely your characters at certain points have espoused things that you believe about the world, right? Is it? Is it really fair to say that?

There's like, a, you know, a severe divide between what Martin McDonagh thinks and believes, and what the characters in his work no, you're, think and believe.

you're absolutely right. But but I think the job is to treat that as as fairly as as a character has who has the opposite, uh, feelings. Probably in the Pillerman play of mine from like, 2025 years ago, because it's all all about a writer who's being investigated. I think a lot of the stuff he, uh, came out with sort of my beliefs. But even in that, you kind of try and obfuscate, um, not a word I usually use, um, w w w exactly, you know what your feelings are.

There's a line in Wild Horse Nine, and it's just that life is sad, everything is sad. And, uh, it struck me as sort of a a melancholy iteration of a line from the Pillowman, W which is the world's a pile of shit. I know there are moments of of grace in in your work, but is is that how you see it?

That's not me, that's, I mean, I wrote them, but, uh, no, I think in both instances, it's sort of the setup to a a joke in a way. So, uh, so no, I definitely don't feel that way about the world. Those characters do, I guess, but those characters are still, you know, thriving, and I think both of those are quite nasty, tough, cop type characters as well. Um, so I don't know if that's the way I feel about cops.

I don't think so. Um, but but it's definitely not the way I I'm. I'm happiest. It's weird, cause I guess my stuff comes out kind of dark and sad in a lot of places, but I'm so the opposite, you know, I never thought I'd be in a position to make a film, for instance, you know, I, I thought, that's it. It's nothing that was ever open to me growing up as a sort of working class kid in London.

I think of your your work as generally, uh, on an existential level, pretty dark, Really. yeah. And I thought, Well, how could it be the case that that doesn't represent something about your like, innermost feelings about what life is? It's like if Samuel Beckett turned out to be a happy-go-lucky guy, you know what I mean, Yeah, no, I just a different

I can. S I can see where you're going with that, but um, uh. But I think questioning and, uh, disbelieving what you're told, for instance, I isn't dark. And making art at all is always hopeful, I think, even if it's dark art. I always think of like Leonard Cohen and people saying that his stuff is depressing, but I it's. I find it the total opposite. You know, the tunes are beautiful, it's poetic. I'm, I mean, I'm not disagreeing with, like a a lot of people have s said my stuff is on the dark side, but um, in the writing of it, I'm like, joyful, you know, because there's lots of jokes and even the darker bits.

The performances are so wonderful and the visual, uh, cinematic parts of it are so wonderful that darkness honestly doesn't come into it from my perspective.

well. Yeah, you, you said, Um, you know, that making art is sort of a a hopeful act, I in a way, do you do you think the art that you make has the ability to, hm, change the perspective or the behaviors of the people who see it?

Um, I mean, that's a hard one. But uh, if if an audience has come out having laughed a lot and learnt some stuff, particularly in this one about Chile or Patrice Lumumba in the Congo, or or whatever else, then all of that is, uh, what I'm after, and all of that is hopeful.

I think I used to agree with you, but now now I now I don't. And I often think of, uh, there's a quote, I believe it's by Peter Cook, you know, the the British comedian. And he said, I'm just paraphrasing, I can't remember exactly, but he said something like, Well, you know, the the greatest satire in the world was in Weimar Germany, and that stops Hitler right in his tracks.

it's a very good line, it's a very funny line. Yeah, is hopeful work going to stop stuff? I don't know, but is anything? but So why not just make hopeful work?

might as well, might as well. Um, I think of your work as, um, dark and bleak, dark and bleak, and but al also so as as the um product of someone who on some level likes to provoke a reaction. Even if if that feeling is, you know, uh, you know, that's, uh, as a sort of a a recoil sometimes, uh, am I wrong about that too? no, no, uh, reco Okay,

recoil. I might question.

who?

I, I often think think about this, uh uh, but yeah, it's it's all quite provocative. It's never intentionally offensive, and I think, and it's often outrageous, uh, and uh, for instance, Malkovich's character in this is outrageous. But I, I don't think he or even the film is, uh, or any of my stuff is is offensive. And I think that's a a a lovely balance to to to keep walking, you know, cause I always feel like my heart is in the right place.

Um, morally, uh, about all of these, um, stories I've I've told so far. And, you know, I have a predilection for being naughty in in them all. I in this, there's, you know, a scene about cheeses, for instance, that, uh, is is quite kind of naughty, um, but n n never, never does it ever occur to me to be offensive, for instance, so so provocative, sure.

What's the difference between being outrageous and being offensive? Um, you Is one just a nicer word for the for the other?

no. I think one is deliberately trying to hurt or offend, or or, or, um, attack an audience, whereas the other is to almost delight in um. Something you haven't heard before, or you might not have thought of.

Do you wanna say what the cheeses thing is? Or should I?

Some things maybe should be fun for an audience to, but you can go,

Okay? So the Malkovich character has a has a has a little disquisition at one point about, um, that, what? What the character calls it? Gay countries make the best cheeses and not

Holland, France, the the UK and Switzerland, uh, make great cheeses, uh, and they are some of the gay countries. Russia definitely not gay country. I'm gonna get in so much trouble. I wish

it's in the movie, it's in the musical,

that's true. it's in Um, uh, and they and Russia doesn't have a good cheese, they don't have. And and the there's a connection between the two, which is then connected to to democracy, and democracy leads to gay leads to good cheeses. Something I've thought about often, and I think is true.

I'm sure. Um, there are people who, you know, will find that scene problematic or offensive, and and but but

But when you're watching it, and I've watched it with a whole lot of audiences, and mostly pretty liberal audiences. Like, the biggest laughs in the whole film is in that scene. And I think it's cause it's outrageous, but there's some kind of weird something to it.

um, but but my 1st question about that is, you know, I would say, for going back 30 years, you know, there have been people who have said your work is offensive. But I in that time, do you feel like that? The conversation about what causes offense, what's not offensive, who can say what, using what language, ha, ha, has that conversation evolved or changed, or do you feel like we're still having the same conversation we were having 30 years ago about I think it, about political correctness?

Basically,

I think it's gotten worse, especially in the last ten years, like only in the last ten years. Have I been asked to change words in plays from 2530 years ago because of offence taken by certain words that weren't there 25 years ago? And my, uh, approach to it is that those words were there to be either outrageous or to be truthful. You know, if you're writing a, for instance, racist character, they're going to use racist language to try and cut those out 25 year years later, for what reason, I'm, I'm, I'm never quite sure.

It feels not just problematic, but it feels like things are getting troublingly worse about that. Cause I was never asked to do that back in the day. And I think if you, if you don't like that in a play, you should just not do the play. You shouldn't try and change the play 25 years later.

is it the n word that people ask you to change? N Uh, no, no, No,

but but uh, um, s actually m much softer, but words that could be seen as equally um racist or offensive.

you know, I when I was, uh, preparing for this interview, I, I, you know, read a a lot of, um, reviews of your work or essays about your work. And you know, there were, uh, two in particular that stood out to me, just on the topic of race, were, I'm sure you're familiar with these pieces. There was a a piece by Hilton Als about your play, Uh, a Behanding in Spokane, where he he equated, uh, a black character in that, uh, play to a sort of a step and fetch it type.

And then also, my colleague here at The Times, Wesley Morris, wrote a piece about Three Billboards, where he, you know, he said he thought the character's use of the n word was e, uh, was glib, basically. And I'm not asking you to rebut those or, you know, take those apart. But those are two serious, you know, both Pulitzer Prize winning critics, both black men who saw something that to them was troubling in the work. Does. Does that then make you think, well, maybe there is something I I need to look at that I'm doing, maybe unknowingly, or do you think, no, they're just they're, they just don't get it, or they're I think after missing the point.

the play, the Yeah,

the the one that Hilton had the issue with it, I I. I did have a a a look back on it and um, wondered about the the amount of of, uh, offensive words in it. And and tried to and but did think seriously about it. You know, I, I, I felt my heart was in the right place when I wrote it, you know, um, mostly about portraying the stupidity of a main guy who was racist in it.

Um, but, uh, you definitely take it on board, you definitely, if you, if you're, you know, you grew up completely anti racist, and that's like part of what your uh, attempt is at art is about. When that doesn't go across to certain critics, you definitely have a think about it.

and w What do you think about it? Like, when you say you would have a think about it, what were the?

Um, j just just k j just to, I think, question the language a little bit in the next one. And or, uh, m maybe just take a little more care about that subject, for instance, in re regard to the play, um, less so about the film. I feel like the film was taken as as a redemption to a character that I didn't feel was true. Um, and uh, so, yeah, yeah, I, I don't agree as much with with that one.

I think your work often generates, you know, questions about, um, you know, political correctness, or, or, you know, the use of language. But but no one ever, um, and I'm not suggesting they should. This is just an observation. No one ever, uh, writes about violence or or com. They write comparatively less about the violence. But why do you think one gets people, um, a a agitated and and what? The other violence seems to have raise no like moral, ethical questions for people.

It's weird, right?

Well, I'd have to sort of disagree, cause I've probably read a lot more

oh, you get it for violence of my. Yeah, too, all right, and it it. And the criticism would be what, that it's gratuitous or something, yeah, gratuitous yeah,

and always there and doesn't need to be.

so what do you make of that?

Uh, I, I don't think it's always there, but and I never make it gratuitous. Um, never intentionally, but, uh, I think, especially with the stage work, you know, I, I was brought up having to watch English plays, which, like people drinking cups of tea for two and a half hours. And uh, and and I, I, I always wanted to shoot them, uh, on stage, uh, so so I think that that naturally, uh, evolved into the plays I made.

Um, I'm being a bit glib about that, but sort of. But I did think you can. A play should be as excite as exciting as the best films, and that meant you should be able to do anything on stage that you can do in a film. Um, which? Which led to a little violence now and then, um, but um, but always, I think, with a moral um dimension to it, you know, I, I would never again want to be offensive with it.

But I think they've been getting less and less violent, you know, if you, if you discount all the fingers in Banshees, there's hardly any violence at all. Um, uh, I guess the donkey gets it, but um, uh, by accident, off screen, um, but. But I think they have been going that way, like even with guns, you know, I I think my early like Bruges was kind of happy go lucky with the gun stuff. But I kinda, eh, tried to go against that a little bit and question it.

you know, Wild Horse Nine is also, uh, a film, uh, like The Banshees of Inisherin, which is about, uh, uh, a character, um, in the case of of Wild Horse nine, John Malkovich's character, in the case of, uh, Banshees, Brendan Gleeson's character. Who is who is thinking about legacy, about, you know, what they're leaving behind and sort of what their life has or or will amount to. Um, is is that a question that you think about?

Oh, I knew you were gonna go there. Um, I think so. I think, like every piece of work is, uh, you're sort of hoping to add to your canon of good stuff, I guess. And I think if you do enough of them or ha, leave behind enough of them. Um, that that there's a route to happiness there, you know? Um,

but why would that be a route to happiness, leaving behind good work?

um, well, you gotta have something, I guess, you know, you got to, and it gets comes back to, like, the hope of of putting a good piece of work out there. Uh, is is sort of what I'm striving for. I think the more I've done it, and the more. And maybe it's kind of having moved into films after like ten or 15 years of doing plays. When you get a play right, it's it's gone forever, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's beautiful in the moment.

But you know, I can't show you the beauty, Queen of Lennon from 96 or the Pillerman from London or here in 2001 or whatever. So that's weirdly, you put all your energy into those pieces of hopeful art and they're gone. But and I think that's probably why I've I've stuck with films lately, and why I'm probably more happier artistically. Is that that they're there and I can see them, and I know the people are gonna be able to see them.

Um, in answer to the legacy bit of of the question, so, um, but but it's not a bad thing, though, is it? I mean, it's a pretty good thing if that's what your role has been in in the artistic world is just leaving some good films behind. And what they take from a good one, I, I, I don't mind. But I want them to be full of good acting and and funny moments. In this one, you know, a bit of truth about history, um, that maybe isn't spoken about enough, um, and in the previous one, Banshees, you know, a a take on, you know, breakups or or male friendships.

That's, uh, not talked about or not explored too much, you know?

Well, I, I wanna ask a a question about that. So the new film is also about a central male friendship. Uh, what ideas were you interested in exploring this time around?

Um, w weirdly, because the pre the last one was Banshees, was sort of the end of a loving male relationship. This is like, right, still in the middle of of, uh, a love affair, almost, you know, sometimes I think of these two guys, Sam Rockwell and John Malkovich, as, um, you know, this old married couple in a way, you know, who bicker and who drive each other nuts. But there's a love that's fundamentally there in every scene.

Um, again, as as as horrible as their jobs have been, to get that right was the most important part of this film. Cause my male friendships are, are, you know, quite deep and sad and open, and and everything that, you know, uh, a a female friendship can be. But is acknowledged to be and is seen as being in in the culture. I I like the gentleness of my male friendships. And I, I guess to show a bit more of that, you know, not this.

Just to have, like a buddy movie where that's sort of empathy or surface is what I was trying to get at with this film.

A lot of your male friends are, um, I in your work, are exploring ethical dilemmas. Ha, have you and a friend had to, like, work through an ethical problem in your life?

Uh, I don't think so. I couldn't, I couldn't, I can't couldn't put my finger on any. Have you

Oh well, um, yeah, of course, yeah. I think the sort of great ethical dilemma of my life is, uh, if it makes sense to say, sort of a a postmortem ethical dilemma. Where, um, I really can't believe I'm wasting your time talking about this loving right now. But uh, where, you know, my my best friend from growing up, uh, died from suicide. And and I had no idea that it was that was a possibility that he was hurting that much.

And then trying to think through after the, I mean, this was a few years ago now, but after the fact, sort of, what were my ethical responsibilities there? How did I fail? W You know, what was I culpable for, if anything? And then also, um, how I understand, sort of how much blame or not to apportion to him for his for what he did. It feels like a an ethical dilemma that I, uh, still think about.

So,

And do you talk about that with your friends, your male friends, and do you have a similar

we have no, we have

feeling about it?

d. We have pretty different feelings. Uh, uh, one of my good friends, he says, You know, this was a an instance of mental illness, and, uh, m. My friend sort of had fallen through the the um care cracks a as it were. And you know, how can? How can you really blame someone for that? And then, you know, probably too harshly or ungenerously, I can think. I don't think he was m mentally ill, or or if he was, like, really, what is mental illness?

Um, and so I think he there is my friend who died does have some responsibility for what he ultimately did. And that's, you know, it's, I don't think either one of us are incontrovertibly right. But

Yeah, yeah, but but like, even that right there is a fascinating discussion you've had with your close male friends. And that's not necessarily s necessarily something you ever really see in in a Hollywood movie, necessarily. And that's sort of, in a very different way, is sort of what I've trying to ex tried to explore well, and from Bruges e, to now.

you know, I read a, um, well, a a couple. But there was one particular collection of academic essays, uh, that I read about your work. And at the at the back, there's like a a biographical, critical timeline. So in in this book, it says 1982, and then in in a way that's so plain spoken, it's funny. It says, uh, uh. At twelve, loses Catholic faith, begins listening to punk rock.

Oh, that's, that's probably pretty accurate, But what was going actually.

on when you were twelve, and do were those things related to each other?

Uh, I think they were very good question, I think they totally were. I think I got into the clash particularly around that age, twelve or 13, and they were s such a great band to help a kid question everything. I think, you know, like I was a working class kid who had no, as Johnny Rotten would say, had no future. Um, apart from a dead end job or a boss, or, well, you know, and I left school very young, I left school at 16.

But I think bands like the clash showed you that there was another way. You didn't have to have a life that was, you know, dictated to you. That you didn't have to work in a factory or an office that you didn't want to do. There's, there, there was hope, you know, so so, yeah, I grabbed onto that with both hands at the age of twelve. And the Catholic thing, I think, if you're starting to question governments and and people who force you to do things against your will, um, which is sort of the p the punk rock ethic.

Naturally, the Catholic Church are gonna be right in the firing line.

Have you ever regained your faith?

No, I mean, there there are parts of it that never fully go. You know, I, I, I'm sure my sort of moral sense is sort of inform formed by the good stuff I took from the stories of Jesus or whatever. Um, but, uh, but no, I think I'm getting more and more sort of entrenched in, uh, in some kind of anti religious feeling in general. I don't. I think it is one of the worst things that's happening in the world.

And then it seems to be getting worse. EV everywhere seems to be getting more and more fundamental and less and less analytical. Yeah, like, I mean, it feels like we want them to, w but women's rights seem to be going down in, you know, this country, most of Middle East, you know, and that's all be, I think, because of religious issues.

you know, when I did go back and read, um, sort of early profiles of you, you were very, you know, sort of positioned as like a, you know, a a anti establishment punk rock theater person, like someone's coming to, you know, rip it up and start again. Yeah, an anti Um, anti theater person, you mean, theater person. And then there were there were, you know, stories of you that, you know, people probably made too much hay of.

But like, uh, what's the, you know, you were drinking at an awards show? And Sean Connery said, Be quiet and you told him to f off. Or. But did you feel as if you were were trying to cultivate an image, or there was something useful about being perceived a certain way? Or maybe you were insecure, and that's how the insecurity showed up?

all of the above, I think, yeah, yeah, but I did. I I mean, I used to read, you know, interviews with playwrights at the time, and and I, I'd read them and feel like, I don't wanna go see your play. You're so, you know, you got nothing, nothing interesting to say, and the way you're saying it is is really dull too. So I was like, even at that that time, quite a shy person, um, but I thought you don't want to be that in an interview.

So you go out, you would go out and say, you know, I think this is best play anyone's gonna see for the next ten years. Deal with it. It, it, that kind of thing is funny, probably born out of some kind of insecurity. But I I, if I was reading that, I'd I'd think I wanna go see that play, you know? So it, I, I. I always had my tongue firmly in my cheek with most of that stuff.

Um, and sort of the last 20 years sort of been doing less of it

when you, uh, alluded earlier to, you know, you left school at 16, maybe didn't have a lot of prospects. Um, you know, my understanding is that you were on, what do they call it in UK, the dole,

on the dole. the dole, uh, unemployment Yes,

insurance, we call it here, uh, but when, when I've read you, sort of, uh, in old interviews, talk about that time, it doesn't. You kind of make it sound like you were getting along okay, um, but w did. Did you feel like you, you would've been okay staying in that life, or or were there things about it that you you liked, or or did you feel like you were someone who was, like, desperately trying to make a new life for himself?

Oh,

no, tho. Those are pretty bleak, sad times, you know, sort of no friends, no money, um, no prospects. And that's when I started writing at at 16, and it was through that process that I kind of found a voice and an ambition, uh, to get that voice out there. I suppose I did have, you know, jobs here and there, um, um, but always pretty mundane ones, and would always write through those. And at 2024, my first play, I think, went on, and and that started everything, you know, that went to the West End and it came off Broadway and then went to Broadway for a year.

So I was like, I went from completely unemployed, unemployable and poor to having a play on Broadway for a year within the space of a year. Um, which probably added to the arrogance.

but you know, it's pretty wild what you just described. A young man, sort of, uh, underemployed, no friends, not a lot of prospects. Think I gotta change my life, I'm gonna do it by writing plays. Do you I mean that? Stupid, I know, Is that?

but it worked.

What are aspects of your current self that, you know, the uh, clash loving teenage Martin McDonagh would feel most proud of? And and what are the aspects that would make him think, like, Oh, that's who I turned out to be? Oh God, If, if, if any, I don't want to assume you've betrayed any youthful ideals.

weirdly, uh. The first time I learned about, uh, Chile and Allende, and um, Victor Jara, and um, all the things that this film talks about. Was it from a clash song called Washington Bullets and Sandinista? Um, and uh, again, I was like twelve or 13 when I first heard. It didn't know any of these people or any of those situations, and started reading up about it. You know, that's the first time I learned about what the CIA did in Chile.

You know, Joe Strummer was sort of a a god to me, and his passion and his morality was always an inspiration. And I always sort of wanted to do something like that, I think, you know, and I might have done it in one or two plays, but never in the films. Have I kinda had a a a place of anger or or or wanting to help, I guess so, and I feel like for the first time, Joe might be proud of this one, you know?

Um, in terms of that anger and political viewpoint, you know,

and then, but, you know, the flip side of that, what would make the teenager roll your eyes at who you've become?

what I? I probably don't do enough to help in real life, uh, don't, you know, have made too much money from it. I mean, I don't, I, I don't have too much guilt about that, cause I've. It's not like I'm killing anyone, I'm just making film. But but that is probably what I w if, if, if. The complacency in general in real life is is what a proper punk rocker should be.

you can change that now,

I can change that this afternoon. I you could can go, don't know what I'm gonna do. What should I do?

figure out what matters to you and find out how to help.

But I think that would be making another film, you know, you can get a viewpoint across to millions of people by making a a a film. Um, ho, if that's gonna help or not, we, we don't know, but um, but I would always come back to that. I think, you know

On the interview, we talked to our guest twice. So the next day, I spoke with Martin McDonagh again about Quentin Tarantino's influence, his partner, Phoebe Waller Bridge, and what it's like to be part of the Hollywood Awards circus. Just a heads up, this part of the conversation is audio only.

I'm Deborah Kamen. I'm an investigative reporter for The New York Times. One morning a few months ago, I got an email and this person said to me, Hey, I have some documents I think you wanna see. So I got on a plane that afternoon and I met them in person and I photographed the documents. And we were able to tell a story that moved our reporting forward in a really significant way. When you subscribe to The New York Times, you're getting a whole team of reporters who are willing to jump and go verify information and bring back documents and shine light on things that other people would like to keep hidden.

If you're a subscriber, thank you for being a part of that.

Martin, it's nice to talk to you again, thank you. you too, David, All right. So, you know, making someone squirm is not my favorite part of the job, but there's there's. I just really need a straight answer about this. I've seen the new movie twice now. I don't understand why it's called Wild Horse Nine. I get the wild horses. Where does the nine come from?

I, I. Honestly, my pat answer is I kinda want to leave it mysterious. F um, for an audience to

on their 3rd viewing, so, uh, decide. that could be cause I don't know what the hell it means, or it could be true. Wait, are you actually suggesting that on the 3rd time, I'll pick up something that I missed the 1st few times? Why not? Oh, good, but can I ask? I wanna ask about your titles generally. Yeah, Um, because, you know, I, I. Obviously, the name of the movie is a main part of the marketing, I assume in Hollywood, these things are often the subject of discussion or or focus grouped.

And I was thinking about your titles, that I didn't get the memo from that you didn't Hollywood about, get the memo. The Banshees of Inisherin and In Bruge yeah, are, so so f uh, foreign words. The only words that you can definitely count on everyone knowing are, you know, the in and of three billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri. It's obviously a mouthful, you know, seven psychopaths. It's relatively straightforward, kind of sounds like a horror movie, though.

but sellable, it's sellable, even though we didn't manage to sell it.

But how how do you think about naming your films?

Weirdly, three billboards was the most successful, and that's the most long-winded. And I had a joke, I think in the pillerman, that you, you can't have a comma in a title, and then I put a comma in a title. It's always me, these titles, it's always, and it's always something vaguely poetic or not not too. Hollywood, I guess, is is is kinda what I'm always going for. Um, and there's usually a number or a place in it.

Um, yeah, I guess it's born out of some kind of laziness.

Do do the studios oh or or anyone? Um, oh, do they ever push back? okay,

No, the very original title of this was, uh, Wild Horse Nine, Easter Island, and there was just the discussion about I couldn't quite work out what was preferable. And, uh, it ended on Wild Horse Nine.

Uh, Wild Horse Nine is definitely better than Wild Horse Nine, Easter Island. Thanks, Which,

thanks, Hollywood. No, I, I. I think they knew it was deliberately long-winded and peculiar, and that was that was okay, you know,

And so titles aside, uh, wasn't that a a skillful segue? I think of, um, I really think of your dialogue as as being stylistically identifiable, like s, uh, Martin McDonagh dialogues to me, y, you know, sounds only like Martin McDonagh dialogue. Um, and do you feel like you, you like? There are elements that you understand that constitute your style when it comes to dialogue? Are there things that you know, you, you like to do?

I. Well, I couldn't put my finger on exactly what it is or what they are. But I know it's always in the ballpark of something just slightly overly theatrical, maybe, uh uh, heightened in some kinda, some kinda way. Um, I kn. I know I use repetitions quite a bit, um, and some lines that al almost feel like they could be quotes. But that could be like, because some of them are setups of a joke or the punchline to a joke.

But I I always hope that at the kernel of of what they're about is is how people really speak in a weird way, even though it's heightened and and flowery. Um, i, i, it, it, cause it's not the most easily palatable way of speaking, but I think the way we speak isn't simplistic, it's kind of a little peculiar. I think it was like Pinter and Mamet particularly, who who made me think that there was like a poetic heightening of how people really speak.

That they had, that I thought is the way to go.

You mentioned, uh, Mamet and Pinter, and I, I can hear those references or those influences in your work. There's kind of a. I think the attention to rhythm, the use of vulgarity, the interplay between w sort of a sophisticated wit and also kind of like a low comedy. But I, I also, you know what, I, I don't mean that pejoratively, like, I, yeah,

that's I. I agree completely.

uh, but I, I really also see your work as coming out of Tarantino. Just the sort sort of the explosions of violence, sometimes the shocking, uh, explosions of violence. W Was he not a an an influence early on?

I I think early on, I guess pulp fiction was sort of 94, and Yeah, Reservoir Russell Crowe was

Oh, good, Dogs in 92.

maybe 92, yeah, so I think that was around the time I was starting to write the plays, so maybe hints of it, um, but over time, I, I, I don't really see it any anymore. I remember the early reviews and early interviews I did. I, I kind of name-checked him a bit, but um, I I think my stuff has sort of changed since then. That was the only reason why I sort of, um, bristled at that, cause I don't quite see it anymore.

And I don't think our approach to violence is quite the same, even though it might appear to be the same.

Oh, h How do you see them as different?

I I think it's, it's, it's that thing I was probably saying yesterday about the coolness of cinematic violence. And I, J. I'm sort of s trying to walk away from that a little bit. Um, perhaps, and I don't know if, and I think Quentin might be in the same place with that. But um, yeah, yeah, I, I, I. We talked yesterday about gratuitousness and and all that stuff, and it's it's definitely something I'm trying to steer clear of these days.

So you, you and, uh, Phoebe Waller Bridge have been together for a a decade. You're both private about your relationship. But I read a quote that she gave, uh, about your work, about being inspired by the Pillerman. And and the quote was It was the first play I saw that made me think theater can be really exciting. Sometimes you need to see something like that, a piece of work that wakes you up, that makes you go.

Yes, of course, that can be done and gives your imagination permission to go 17 million other places. Um, w What of her work has inspired you?

Well, feedback was like game changing and eye opening, and, uh, just so insightful and and funny. And I just learnt so much about that woman and women and feminism and um, storytelling, um, and then feedback two took it to an even more beautiful place. And I think I learnt a lot about love through feedback two. Um,

Ah, what, what did you learn about love?

um, just about how important it is, and, uh, how lovely it is when you get there, he squirms.

right, I wanna, uh, return a little bit to the, uh, sort of punk rock informed, uh, portion o of the interview. You know, people, people are are talking about Wild Horse Nine as, uh, you know, a a an award season contender. And and you know, you've been fortunate enough to be in that position a couple times in your career, having made movies that people thought were award worthy. Like, what's the punk rock, you know? Sean Connery telling off part of Martin McDonagh's soul that that, um, like, what about award season makes you blanch?

It's like, I cannot believe I'm, I'm like, in here doing this. There must be moments, right?

I, I knew you were gonna go that way with the, uh, the question, I knew it, uh, I. What? What's what's a punk rock boy like you doing at the No, I'm just Oscars? Basically,

trying to, I'm j uh, no, no, no, it's not what's a punk rock boy like you doing at? I'm, you know, good for you cause I, for at the Oscars. That's

I do ask myself that same question,

so I'm trying to locate that part of you that's still a alive and and trying to understand, like, where it, where it manifests. O out in, out in the world, outside of the work, outside, I can see it in the work.

but that's the thing I think. Um, no, it's a very good question. I'm not taking the piss or anything. Uh,

You can, you can take the piss, that's okay, I've done it to you, you can do it back to me.

that's true, um, but I I think the young me would never give a damn about any kind of awardsy things. It's all kind of irrelevant and all that. Um, but once you, once, once you start getting nominated, I find it fascinating. I just find, like, the odds changing as the season goes on. Like, I'm all. I'm always googling, you know, is is John Malkovich still the leading contender? Who's who's coming up? Shit? Andrew Scott's coming up.

What can we do to destroy his race? Not really, but um, but because it's again, even making films is like so far away from anything I'd ever thought I'd be involved in. If you double that and think that the Oscars and the os an Oscar race is something you never thought you'd be involved in. I. J. I just kind of find it fun and enjoy it because the work is the work. I would never change what the work is to get one or make something Oscar baitty or any of that.

So a as long as that is integral, what happens afterwards is is I. I enjoy it, I find it fun.

I would actually really like to see Martin McDonagh's version of an Oscar bait movie.

Jesus Christ, what would that be?

We call the orphan of Inisherin.

Who's gonna play it? Timothy Chalamet?

there you go, look at that,

But hang on, he, he doesn't win, though, so hang on. No, no, I gotta get anyway.

no. But by the time he does your movie, he'll be, he'll be due one. It's all about the the

The timing. the long game. Yeah, Yeah, true,

yeah, but what you know, when we were talking about how your younger self would view your older self, you know, uh, uh, or, or what? The younger you might question about the contemporary you, you said, Um, you know, maybe you should be doing more to help, uh, the things that you care about. But then you kinda landed on, you know, probably making art is what you can do to help. And it actually made me think a little bit about, um, a scene in Wild Horse Nine, where John Malkovich's character is actually, maybe there's two scenes where where this occurs.

Is talking to to a a young left wing student about going on a march, and he's, you know, so, uh, sort of cynically sarcastic about, you know, w what do you expect to accomplish going on a march? You know? It's like the thing that accomplishes your goals is violence, basically, guns, power. Uh, and I could imagine that the Malkovich character is even more cynical about the possibility of art changing anything or changing the world. oh God, yeah, Yeah, um, but who who in your heart, who do you think is closer to the truth, you or him?

ooh, ooh. I think art has changed things, but I think murder has probably changed a lot more things. That's a terribly bleak thing to terribly bleak answer, but I, uh, I ain't gonna murder anyone, so I gotta keep plowing on.

but, you know, I was also thinking about why, uh, I, I was feeling so pessimistic about, you know, the possibilities of of art. And think, do I like, do I? Is that actually how I feel about it? And and thinking about that? And then I realized that I think the a powerful counterargument is actually already in your film. And that's, uh, Victor Jara, who, uh, you know, a Chilean activist, folk singer who was targeted and killed by the Pinochet regime.

And I thought, Well, you know, if the Pinochet regime didn't think it mattered, they probably would've left that guy alone.

Totally, totally. Um, and the Pinochet regime is gone, and we still have his songs, so that's something in terms of, like, changing the world, can can art change it? All of the art we've seen, all the films we've loved, all the paintings, you know, they have changed the world. Cause they're in it, you know, they. They mightn't have changed things politically, but this world is better cause of the poems we love and and the books we love, and the films we adore.

So that is, it's not some wishy washy. It's gonna change, it's gonna affect Trump or or society necessarily, but it is a new piece of beautiful art or beautiful whatever. Um, that's out there, and I think that is, hm, always hopeful.

Martin, I, I, uh, really, very much appreciated talking with you, so thank you for the time.

This really has felt like a proper therapy session, David. I'm gonna, I feel changed. I'm not sure if I, I'm not sure if no, I'm not sure if I like it. Um, cause I, I liked myself before I came in. Now I'm like, Oh, hang on, I'm not, I'm not doing enough to help. And uh, and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, no, I've loved it.

that's Martin McDonagh. His new movie Wild Horse Nine is in theaters November 6th. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/at symbol the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John Wu, mixing by Sophia Lanman, original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano, photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Wyatt Orm, Paola, Newdorf, Maya Tepler, Rachel Whitaker, Gabby Contreras and Catalina O'Brien.

Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. I'm David Marchesi, and this is the interview from the New York Times. This week on the Wirecutter show. You don't need to be afraid of a pressure cooker. We are in the second generation phase of stovetop pressure cookers. So if you walk away and you leave it over too high of a heat, it's gonna vent itself. We're talking about one pot meals and all the ways to make them. Find the Wirecutter show on the New York Times app or wherever you like to listen.