# The Best TV Shows of the 21st Century - **Show:** The Daily - **Published:** 27 Sep 2026 - **Source:** https://www.nytimes.com/the-daily - **Transcript:** https://podcasts.opennash.com/shows/the-daily/the-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century-e617c7/ - **Provider:** OpenNash Podcasts (machine-generated) ## In brief The New York Times asked more than a thousand TV insiders to name their favorite shows of the 21st century. The resulting top 100 shows that the best modern TV mixes comedy and drama, centers flawed or unlikable characters, and grew out of an era of huge creative freedom and sheer volume of shows. The tension runs between consensus and quarrel. Critics Gilbert Cruz and James Poniewozik defend the top ten but argue about what is missing. Some are surprised The Wire was not number one. Others note The Sopranos, which began in 1999, falls outside the cutoff yet shaped nearly everything that did make the list. ## Key insights 1. **Great shows blur comedy and drama** Gilbert Cruz says Atlanta, a comedy, had some of the creepiest episodes he saw, while top-five dramas are full of laughs. That blurring helps explain why comedies and dramedies did well in the top ten. 2. **Peak TV gave idiosyncratic voices a platform** FX's John Landgraf coined 'peak TV' in 2015, describing networks, cable and streamers racing to put out good shows. Cruz argues that glut of platforms let Phoebe Waller-Bridge's very personal Fleabag get made. 3. **Likable protagonists stopped being required** Poniewozik says Fleabag would not have survived a 1992 pitch to CBS. Succession and Breaking Bad also rely on people we may not like but still follow. 4. **Binge-watching may change how Breaking Bad reads** Poniewozik suggests weekly viewers see a good man turning bad, while bingers are more likely to see Heisenberg as there all along. The show's central question is whether circumstances changed Walter White or revealed him. 5. **The Sopranos shaped the list without being on it** The list excludes it because it began in 1999. Poniewozik argues it brought the anti-hero, long-running storylines and cable's rise over network TV, so its influence shows up across the top 100. ## Questions this episode answers ### How was the New York Times list of best TV shows of the 21st century made? The Times contacted over a thousand TV figures, including showrunners, writers and actors, and asked each to pick their favorite shows of the past 26 years. It compiled their votes into a list of 100. ### What are the top five shows on the list? Breaking Bad is number one, followed by The Wire, Mad Men, Succession and Fleabag. Numbers 10 to 6 are Atlanta, Curb Your Enthusiasm, 30 Rock, Veep and Game of Thrones. ### Why isn't The Sopranos on the list? It debuted in 1999, before the 21st-century cutoff Gilbert Cruz says the editors set. James Poniewozik adds that the whole list reflects TV after The Sopranos changed what television could be. ### What does 'peak TV' mean? It is a phrase John Landgraf, head of FX, coined in 2015 for a time when broadcast networks, cable channels and streaming services were all racing to make good shows. The result was more TV on air than ever before. ### What does 'joke density' mean, and why did 30 Rock get praised for it? It means how many jokes are packed into each minute, sometimes several punchlines in one joke. Comedy voters such as Brett Goldstein admired 30 Rock for having so many. ## Facts - **Natalie Kitroeff** [0:01:37]: "The Weather Channel debuted a new show called Your Weather Today." - **Natalie Kitroeff** [0:02:25]: "They contacted over a thousand TV luminaries, showrunners, writers, actors, and asked them to pick their favorite TV shows of the last 26 years." - **Speaker 3** [0:04:53]: "At number 10, we have Atlanta. At number nine, Curb Your Enthusiasm. Number 8 is 30 Rock, number seven is Veep, and number 6 is Game of Thrones." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:13:10]: "Curb Your Enthusiasm comes, of course, from Larry David. He created Seinfeld with Jerry Seinfeld." - **Speaker 3** [0:13:27]: "But Curb Your Enthusiasm, the sort of freedom and range of expression that he got from doing this show for HBO allowed him to create this pure, raw, uncut version of it." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:24:09]: "2015, the phrase peak TV was coined by the the head of FX, this guy John Landgraf." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:24:09]: "streaming TV services like Netflix and Amazon, where Fleabag debuted in the United States, were all in a race to just get good stuff out there." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:28:03]: "It is amazing to have this show, which is about this media titan, Logan Roy, and his kids who are all trying to take over his company." - **James Poniewozik** [0:31:26]: "an impeccably cast, beautifully crafted, brilliantly imagined picture of the advertising industry in the 1960s and very early 70s in New York." - **James Poniewozik** [0:31:56]: "Jon Hamm gives an amazing performance, Don Draper, the dashing protagonist with a secret past." - **James Poniewozik** [0:35:43]: "In terms of just telling this all encompassing story of the dysfunction of cities and of systems." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:41:26]: "So Breaking Bad show created by Vince Gilligan is essentially the story of Walter White, uh, who, when we start the series, is a chemistry teacher." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:41:26]: "Get a bunch of money, leave it for his family. And along the way, he turns into essentially a kingpin in Albuquerque." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:42:17]: "starring with Bryan Cranston, uh, it has amazing villains, including Giancarlo Esposito as, uh, Gus Fring." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:44:52]: "Vince Gilligan, who wrote one of this era's great anti-heroes, was raising the question of Have we done it enough?" - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:49:45]: "The Sopranos, which is a great show, one of the best TV shows of all time, came out in 1999." - **James Poniewozik** [0:50:30]: "The Sopranos debuts in 1999. It's one of the 1st big sort of cultural phenomenon shows on HBO." - **Gilbert Cruz** [0:52:48]: "it was, uh, TV version of the story that we saw on the big screen in the movies Manhunter and The Silence of the Lambs about the character Hannibal Lecter." - **James Poniewozik** [0:56:05]: "that was about a man who had been released from prison and returned home and was trying to get his life together and possibly clear his name." ## Transcript **[0:00:00] Peter Baker:** I'm Peter Baker, I'm chief White House correspondent for the New York Times. I cover the president of the United States, and I've covered every president since 1996. The pressure on an independent press today feels greater than at any time I've seen it in four decades as a journalist. All that pressure, though, is just a reminder of why journalism matters. Our job is to bring home facts, help our readers understand what's happening, regardless of what the consequences may be to us. **[0:00:25] Peter Baker:** And if they punish us, so be it. We will still go out there and report as honestly and aggressively and fairly and truthfully as we can. I mean, look, if the New York Times were not at the White House asking the hard questions, looking for stories behind the stories, trying to understand what's going on, it's possible these questions don't get asked. Independent reporting requires resources. You can support it by subscribing to the New York Times at NYTimes. **[0:00:50] Peter Baker:** Com. **[0:00:55] Natalie Kitroeff:** Hi everyone, it's Natalie. If you're not yet a Times subscriber, we have some news for you. You can enjoy full access to The Times without a paywall for 30 days. All you have to do is download the app to get your first month completely free. And if you're already a Times subscriber, thank you. Okay, here's today's show. From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroeff. This is the Daily on Sunday. **[0:01:30] Speaker 8:** Your weather today The best way to plan your day. Join Heather Tesh and Michael On January Bell every weekday morning 3rd, 2000, from eight to nine on K **[0:01:37] Natalie Kitroeff:** The Weather Channel debuted a new show called Your Weather Today. **[0:01:42] Speaker 8:** Dallas. You're looking at another record-breaking day without rain **[0:01:45] Natalie Kitroeff:** It was a show about **[0:01:46] Speaker 8:** in sight. weather. **[0:01:47] Speaker 6:** We have the forecast for you, plus an update on conditions in your town in this edition of your It was, weather. Today. **[0:01:53] Natalie Kitroeff:** we think, the very first new television show of the 21st century. In the 26 years that followed, we got a lot more new shows. **[0:02:03] Speaker 5:** More Yolobos coming, man. **[0:02:05] Speaker 8:** Oh, hello you. I'm filming television's Moira Rose. **[0:02:09] Natalie Kitroeff:** Some of them better than your weather today. **[0:02:12] Speaker 5:** Gentlemen, start your engines and may the best woman win. **[0:02:16] Speaker 3:** Put my saber inside the jelly again. Clear eyes, full hearts. Let's go. **[0:02:22] Gilbert Cruz:** So put that in your pipe and smoke it. **[0:02:25] Natalie Kitroeff:** Here in 2026, TV is now firmly a prestige art form, with big stars, auteur creators and huge production budgets, and it's become absolutely central to the cultural conversation. So, to commemorate that evolution of TV over the last quarter century, my colleagues here at the Times undertook a little project. They contacted over a thousand TV luminaries, showrunners, writers, actors, and asked them to pick their favorite TV shows of the last 26 years. And they heard back from a lot of them. **[0:03:00] Natalie Kitroeff:** People like Lena Waithe. **[0:03:01] James Poniewozik:** BoJack Horseman is like this crazy experiment that should've gone awry. Adam Scott **[0:03:07] Gilbert Cruz:** The good wife is that legal procedural, but it cuts way deeper. **[0:03:14] Natalie Kitroeff:** and Mad Men creator Matthew Weiner. **[0:03:16] James Poniewozik:** I loved Orange is the New Black the minute I saw it. **[0:03:20] Natalie Kitroeff:** Then they took all that data and compiled a list of the 100 best TV shows of the 21st century, a list we've been slowly rolling out over the course of this week. But now the whole thing is officially out, which means that the fun part can start picking that list apart. And that's what we're here today to do. I've invited two of my colleagues to the show Gilbert Cruz, who's our canon editor, and James Poniewozik, our chief TV critic. **[0:03:47] Natalie Kitroeff:** Both of them are TV fanatics, but neither of them picked the shows for this list, which means that they are free to debate it as much as they want. It's Sunday, September 27th. Jim Gilbert, welcome to the Sunday Daily. It is wonderful to have you both here. **[0:04:09] Speaker 3:** Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. **[0:04:12] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, I've set everything up in the intro. What the list is, the fact that neither of you can be blamed for it. **[0:04:18] Speaker 3:** Yeah, high five, Jim. Thank I you. **[0:04:20] Natalie Kitroeff:** think the thing that we should do is just dive right into the list itself. Give the people what they want. I wanna focus on the top ten shows and what they tell us about what's happened in television over the last 25 years or so. I think we should start with numbers six to ten, and we'll save the top five for later in the show. Gilbert, would you please give us the tenth to sixth best TV shows of the 21st century, as voted on by our respondents? **[0:04:53] Speaker 3:** At number 10, we have Atlanta. At number nine, Curb Your Enthusiasm. Number 8 is 30 Rock, number seven is Veep, and number 6 is Game of Thrones. **[0:05:07] Natalie Kitroeff:** The first thing that grabbed me about that rundown is just how many comedies are in there. There aren't actually a lot of comedies in the top five. And I don't mean to sound like Larry David here, but I do love complaining. It's one of my hobbies, and so I do wanna start with a complaint. Why are the comedies in the lower half of the top ten? Why aren't they in the top five? **[0:05:33] Speaker 3:** Oh my God, I I have an opinion on this, and I know Jim has a very strong opinion on this. And and and what I'm gonna say is, yes, some of the titles that, uh, ten through six are quote comedies. But I think something that this top ten shows overall is that there's a way in which great shows always mix comedy and drama. I Oh, God, think if no, **[0:05:58] Natalie Kitroeff:** I knew you were gonna say that. **[0:05:59] Speaker 3:** I, I'm gonna say, cause it's right. Um, if you look at Atlanta, for example, the number 10 show, it is a quote comedy. But some of the creepiest, most dramatic episodes I remember watching through that period came on Atlanta. Congratulations. For what? **[0:06:23] Natalie Kitroeff:** I choose you. You're my sacrifice. **[0:06:28] Speaker 3:** Conversely, if you look at some of the episodes from the top five shows, they are full of laughs, even though they are dramas. So I think sort of dividing it in that way, I think, is a little bit more complicated than that. With all due respect, Jim **[0:06:40] James Poniewozik:** Um, it actually surprised me that there was this much comedy in the top ten. **[0:06:46] Natalie Kitroeff:** Why? **[0:06:47] James Poniewozik:** You think of a lot of the most talked about television shows as being dramas from this period. On top of which you have that sort of ingrained bias, you know, you look at the Oscars, you know, dramas win best picture. Comedies, it's an honor just to be nominated. It honestly was a bit of a surprising showing to me that this many comedies or dramedies, or quasi comedies, or part of its comedy, made as good a showing there. **[0:07:16] James Poniewozik:** And to me, part of that is, I think, because people develop an affection for these kinds of shows. And maybe that gives them a little more staying power. I think one very big and interesting question within television of the past quarter century has been, you know, how funny does a comedy have to be? You know, do you really define comedy as just, you know, the highest number of jokes per minute? **[0:07:47] Natalie Kitroeff:** yeah, no, but I mean, you can't deny that there is a particular joy to a show that is only trying to make you laugh. Gilbert Around this project, you talked to a bunch of people who cast ballots for the best show. I've been watching these interviews, and so many of the respondents talk about being bowled over by just how many jokes are in a single episode of 30 Rock. Like, particularly the comedy people that you spoke with. **[0:08:10] Natalie Kitroeff:** I remember Brett Goldstein from Ted Lasso and Joel Kim Booster and Jesse Armstrong, who created Succession. They are all so clearly enamored with 30 Rock. **[0:08:28] James Poniewozik:** The amount of genius jokes per second is infuriating. I think the jokes per minute on that show are probably the highest of most comedies, certainly higher than a lot of comedies that are airing right now. **[0:08:49] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, I was going down some very enjoyable YouTube rabbit holes in prepping for this conversation. And I found, I think, what is the perfect example, which I'm gonna play for you. Tracy Jordan, played by Tracy Morgan, is talking to his doctor, Dr. Spaceman, AKA. Dr. Spaceman. Here we go. Tracy, you are going **[0:09:09] Peter Baker:** to die. What? No, When I tell you who I'm dating, I **[0:09:10] Natalie Kitroeff:** what? **[0:09:10] Peter Baker:** Squeaky Fromm, she is difficult. Anywho, do. Anywho, I I have the results of your physical, **[0:09:20] Speaker 5:** Tracy, you are going to die. What? No, What? No, you have no reflexes. Your blood tastes like root beer, and some of your bones appear to have vanished. **[0:09:30] Natalie Kitroeff:** I. I. The reason I think this is the perfect example is that I think there's six jokes in 10 seconds. Like every single thing that was said minus one word is a joke. **[0:09:41] Gilbert Cruz:** I didn't understand the phrase joke density, which a lot of people use in reference to the show, um, until I watched 30 Rock. The idea that every joke maybe has three punchlines within it. **[0:09:54] Speaker 5:** Lemon, you look terrible. And I once watched you eat oysters while you had a cold. We had him, Jack, and we lost him. So Kenneth and I had to spend the rest of the afternoon trying to think like Tracy. I ended up eating a swordfish dinner at a strip club, and Kenneth grabbed a cop's gun and shot a blimp. Well, tomorrow's another There's something a day. **[0:10:10] Natalie Kitroeff:** little bit overwhelming about it, that's what I will say. For the people that might not have this in their very top, it's like, you know, it's a lot. I mean, it's hilarious, it's also a lot. **[0:10:19] Speaker 5:** You know, I, I, I will say 30 Rock is one of these shows that I just, I mentally quote lines from and jokes from to myself over and over again. You know, Siri, kill Jenna. Uh, you know, so, uh. I also think that that is a difficult thing to pull off successfully. And, you know, for me, that's a that's a thing. **[0:10:40] Speaker 3:** I'm gonna offend some of our listeners, but it turns me off about a show like Family Guy, for instance. You know, I think that there is a there, there is a line where, you know, if you are just the unending joke machine, you end up with Family Guy. But, you know, 30 Rock, I think, also had a take. It had things it wanted to say about the media and the culture at the moment. And it w it was funny and it, and it always had something to say. **[0:11:01] Speaker 3:** Which, you know, I think is the difference between a show that you will laugh at and then immediately forget, and a show that sticks with you. **[0:11:09] Natalie Kitroeff:** I'm just interested with this one where you guys would have put 30 rock on your list. **[0:11:15] Speaker 3:** I'd have put it in the top hundred, the top 50. But I mean, look, we're talking 26 yikes. years here, right? That's an average of less than four shows per year. To say that, you know, something would be in the top 50 is to say that, you know, it would be one of the best one or two shows of, like, one year out of those 26. **[0:11:34] Gilbert Cruz:** Thank you, thank you, thank you, Jim. Because I say now to all of our wonderful commenters, you're like, why was this show so low on our list? Brothers and sisters, like being number 80 on a, uh, in a period when thousands and thousands of shows have come out across English language TV. Uh, that's quite impressive. And so, uh, I probably would've put 30 rock in in my top ten. But I am, uh, a simple man, not as sophisticated as Mr. **[0:12:03] Gilbert Cruz:** Poniewozik here. **[0:12:04] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay. I wanna talk about a show that I personally would've put in my top five, which I think is very different comedy wise, I think, than 30 Rock, which is Curb Your Enthusiasm. **[0:12:15] Speaker 3:** Why? Why do I have to thank you? For dinner that Oh, **[0:12:22] Speaker 5:** my husband and I treated I you to. **[0:12:25] Speaker 3:** thought he treated me to it. **[0:12:27] Natalie Kitroeff:** It's like one joke that lasts a half an hour, like a bit is basically the same bit every time. Larry is having a bad time doing something, you know, He's **[0:12:36] Speaker 3:** Using our money to pay for it. he's So you can thank us. **[0:12:42] Speaker 5:** well, you can call it our money. But just for the sake of discussion, he's the one who who goes to work and and earns the money. You don't, you don't work. it builds **[0:12:48] Speaker 3:** All right, what about you? **[0:12:49] Natalie Kitroeff:** you experience his particular point of view about the world. **[0:12:54] Speaker 3:** Is it in your house? **[0:12:57] Speaker 8:** Honey, it, it's our money. **[0:12:58] Speaker 5:** Well, this show sucked, you know, **[0:12:59] Speaker 8:** No brother. **[0:13:00] Speaker 5:** I, I've earned the money. **[0:13:00] Speaker 3:** Oh so, what do you do? You pay her a salary and then she buys things. **[0:13:03] Natalie Kitroeff:** talk to me about why that show ranked so high on everybody else's list. **[0:13:10] Gilbert Cruz:** okay, so so so I think Curb Your Enthusiasm gets at one of these questions of what is 21st century TV? what was great in 21st century TV? Because Curb Your Enthusiasm comes, of course, from Larry David. He created Seinfeld with Jerry Seinfeld. **[0:13:27] Speaker 3:** A lot of the same themes, a lot of the same sort of, you know, uh, attention to faux pas and gripes and personal minutia. But Curb Your Enthusiasm, the sort of freedom and range of expression that he got from doing this show for HBO allowed him to create this pure, raw, uncut version of it. That, I think, in many ways, maybe not by itself. You can also, you know, throw in shows like The British Office here and so on. **[0:13:58] Speaker 3:** It kinda defined this genre of cringe comedy, for lack of a better word that you see coming up in show after show after show on the larger list here. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and guess what? I'm in the New York Times best TV shows of the 21st century. Imagine that the idea of nothing, to a certain extent, is taken to the 10th power or 100th power on Curb. These these small conflicts that are usually nothing are exaggerated **[0:14:39] Speaker 8:** And put under a microscope and made large. That idea existed on Seinfeld, of course. They're completely related. It's like same genus, same species. I don't know how else to say it, you know? **[0:14:59] Natalie Kitroeff:** when I think about Curb, I feel like, is this? There's a degree of cringe comedy mixed with, I think, wish fulfillment in it. Because you're watching someone have reactions that you might have to something like, for example, the stop and chat. Hotel. **[0:15:13] Gilbert Cruz:** Why didn't you say I love him? You know him? **[0:15:16] Speaker 5:** I know he w he wanted to do a stop and chat. I didn't want to do a stop and chat. **[0:15:20] Natalie Kitroeff:** When you're walking on the street and you pass an acquaintance, you should not have to respect the social more of stopping and talking to that person. **[0:15:28] Gilbert Cruz:** Is that why you never talk to me at our local train station? I I'm being exposed Will we see each other **[0:15:34] Natalie Kitroeff:** to it. **[0:15:34] Gilbert Cruz:** in the morning? **[0:15:34] Natalie Kitroeff:** I don't think I agree. Okay, the stop and chat, it's that we shouldn't have to do that, No, I agree right? **[0:15:40] Gilbert Cruz:** with you, you're absolutely right. **[0:15:40] Natalie Kitroeff:** Don't you? And Larry's right, it's Larry. for a stop Well, hello, **[0:15:43] Speaker 3:** and shop. **[0:15:43] Gilbert Cruz:** hi, how are you? Nice seeing you too. Take care, bye. **[0:15:46] Speaker 3:** it's more than that. I don't, I don't. For him, all I need to do is just say hello. Yeah, but that And we're **[0:15:49] James Poniewozik:** was kind of rude. **[0:15:49] Speaker 3:** that was not rude. I mean, Uh, you know, and and what? Humor comes from pain, right? Humor comes from discomfort, and this is humor about discomfort. And it is a thing that he is just a a poet of. Oh, okay, **[0:16:02] James Poniewozik:** I see what's going on over here. **[0:16:04] Speaker 3:** no, yeah, I'm sorry, I I didn't recognize. **[0:16:06] Speaker 5:** she's doing a chat and cut chat and cut. So, yeah, Really sustaining familiarity with someone she vaguely knows for the sole purpose of cutting in line. Puss, she'll be picking up a plate any second. you look, you're like, Watch. **[0:16:17] Speaker 3:** you need a flight. **[0:16:18] Speaker 5:** Yeah, yeah, there she goes. Yeah, **[0:16:20] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, there's one more comedy here. Veep. Veep. Who wants to say a word about Veep? **[0:16:28] Gilbert Cruz:** Veep Veep is just master of the insult and master of the curse word. And there's just, uh, just that alone, not even talking about the cast, which is incredible. Um, is J just makes this so rewatchable. The the cynicism that it has about politics, uh, possibly like, appropriate for the era, **[0:16:50] Natalie Kitroeff:** What? **[0:16:51] Gilbert Cruz:** uh, was just perfect. It's a bad look. **[0:16:54] Speaker 8:** That's how he looks, that's his face. Why did you just take the good one of me? Photoshop it in. **[0:17:00] Speaker 5:** I can't airbrush history, ma'am. I'm not Joseph Stalin. **[0:17:03] Speaker 8:** No, no, that's true, you're not. You don't have a tenth of his charm. **[0:17:07] Speaker 3:** It's a show set in politics, uh, but it comes from this, this beautifully cynical notion of human nature. That that people are just, you know, grasping and inept, and will say what they need to say and do what they need to do to get ahead. And and you know, especially in a setting where there's such a history of, you know, just d hypocrisy and platitudes, and, you know, uh, just just the way that it's able to kind of puncture, that is beautiful **[0:17:37] Natalie Kitroeff:** It doesn't feel accidental to me how many times in the last several years people have pointed out that some scene in Washington seems like it's straight out of Veep. And I think that just keeps coming up because the show hits it so hard and on that one did **[0:17:51] Speaker 3:** such a human level. I'm Padma Lakshmi, and I voted on the New York Times best shows of the 21st century. I do think Veep tapped into a kind of cluelessness that many people in various fields, including being a chef or any other high profile, uh, leadership position. They slip into an in, uh, like, um, an ignorant bliss. Because there's so many people clearing their path, and they got there because they're smart, but then they're sort of infantilized by the people who are supposed to smooth their path or make their lives easier. **[0:18:33] Speaker 3:** But it's set in this cesspool of Washington politics and backbiting and everybody really just trying to protect their own job. And that is not just particular to Washington, I can tell you, that's very particular to Hollywood. **[0:18:54] Natalie Kitroeff:** all right. We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, we will talk about the top five TV shows of the 21st century. I'm so excited. We'll be right back. **[0:19:14] Speaker 3:** I'm Deborah. **[0:19:22] Natalie Kitroeff:** One morning a few months ago, I got an email and this person said to me, Hey, I have some documents I think you wanna see. So I got on a plane that afternoon and I met them in person and I photographed the documents. And we were able to tell a story that moved our reporting forward in a really significant way. When you subscribe to The New York Times, you're getting a whole team of reporters who are willing to jump and go verify information and bring back documents and shine light on things that other people would like to keep hidden. **[0:20:11] Natalie Kitroeff:** If you're a subscriber, thank you for being a part of that. Okay, let's get into it. We are here. Top five very best TV of the 21st century, according again, not to you two, but to industry insiders. Gilbert, what is number five? **[0:20:12] Gilbert Cruz:** At number five, we have the show Fleabag. **[0:20:12] Natalie Kitroeff:** Fleabag? I love Fleabag. I am so happy to get to talk about Fleabag. I did a fart **[0:20:12] Speaker 8:** It's a bad look. **[0:20:12] Speaker 3:** the other day that was exactly like Mums **[0:20:14] Speaker 8:** A door opening, or suspicious dark door door opening opening. means you're getting mums Hm, hm. **[0:20:19] Speaker 3:** bum. God, I'm bit lucky. I bought them dropped ages ago. My flat seems to be like now they're just sort of fighting their way out. **[0:20:29] Speaker 8:** I haven't fasted in about three years. **[0:20:33] Natalie Kitroeff:** A thing that came up a lot in the interviews about this show is that people really connected to this particular portrayal of a very particular woman. **[0:20:45] Speaker 3:** I'm Alexis Bladel, and I voted for the New York Times best TV shows of the 21st century. And Fleabag, um, it was just remarkable how deeply funny and unashamed the whole piece was. You know, it's so unapologetically self expressive. She's incredibly vulnerable while being completely irreverent, and I don't know how she does that because that's I don't. I don't think I've ever seen that done so precisely, um, or pitch perfect before. Um, in all the world, she's just graciously self possessed, and, you know, presenting something modern and and fresh to everybody to kind of shake us up. **[0:21:34] Speaker 3:** Fleabag is a **[0:21:36] Gilbert Cruz:** dark comedy, comic drama, another one of these hybrids about a woman who is sort of on a journey of forgiveness, has done some terrible things in her life and is trying to move on and find some sense of completeness. **[0:22:00] Speaker 5:** People make mistakes. **[0:22:09] Speaker 6:** That's why they put rubbers on the ends of pencils. **[0:22:13] Speaker 5:** Is that a joke? **[0:22:16] Speaker 6:** I don't know. **[0:22:18] James Poniewozik:** I mean, I I think that that Fleabag, which I was delighted to see and delightedly surprised to see Lynn is high on the list. Uh, kind of wraps up a lot of things that are great about television of this era. Number one, playing with around with the idea of, like, w, what is a protagonist that people will identify with, right? Like, Fleabag is somebody. If you pitched this, you know, to CBS in 1992 or whatever, you know, you were, you were, you were not surviving that pitch meeting. **[0:22:46] James Poniewozik:** Well, **[0:22:48] Speaker 3:** She is not, you know, what, in classic TV terms, you would identify as likable, or, you know, have having the attributes that you would usually associate with a TV protagonist. **[0:23:01] Speaker 8:** You're almost late. **[0:23:03] Speaker 5:** Flash? **[0:23:04] Speaker 8:** Christ, did you wash your hands? Of course not. Oh my God, **[0:23:09] Speaker 3:** Um, but she's real, she's well drawn, and, uh, Phoebe Waller Bridge, who created the show. It is just chock full of voice, **[0:23:21] James Poniewozik:** I think, is really one thing that marks a lot of the the the best shows of the last quarter century, the best shows on this list. **[0:23:29] Speaker 8:** what? really? oh my god, that's amazing. What does he do? He's a priest. **[0:23:39] Speaker 3:** This was a a story that she wanted to tell, that she had in her mind. And, you know, it turns out that you could tell a story like this on television that was that specific and personal to your vision, and people would find the universal in it. **[0:23:53] Speaker 6:** Big reader with no friends. Are you a cool person? I'm a pretty normal person. A normal person. What makes you a normal person? **[0:23:59] Speaker 3:** I don't believe in God. **[0:24:00] Speaker 6:** I love it when he does that. **[0:24:09] Gilbert Cruz:** I think it's also interesting to think of the economics of TV that led us to the point where someone like Phoebe Waller Bridge could have this show, right? In in 2015, the phrase peak TV was coined by the the head of FX, this guy John Landgraf. And then this debuts a year later. And what he was describing was this era in which network TV, cable TV, and then the the the rapidly growing streaming TV services like Netflix and Amazon, where Fleabag debuted in the United States, were all in a race to just get good stuff out there. **[0:24:46] Gilbert Cruz:** So, at a certain point, there was more TV on air at at any given time than had ever been on TV before. And those were part of the circumstances that allowed someone like Phoebe Waller Bridge, with her incredibly idiosyncratic voice, to have sort of this platform to to to have her show on. **[0:25:06] Natalie Kitroeff:** you mean? She's both a product of and a reflection of the era that so defined the last ten or 25 years. **[0:25:15] Speaker 3:** Yeah, are you a lesbian? Not strictly. You do you like all films? Some? And what's your favorite period film? CARRIE **[0:25:30] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, moving to number four, we have Succession. **[0:25:34] Speaker 5:** Did you ever think I could do it? **[0:25:38] Speaker 6:** Do what? The top job? Oh, I don't know, maybe. **[0:25:46] Speaker 5:** You can say, Well, I just, you know, you're smart, you're good, but I, I just don't know. What? Come on, you're not a killer. You have to be a killer. **[0:26:11] Natalie Kitroeff:** okay. This is one that I think you might have been thinking of as a drama that is also a comedy. And I would agree that I have laughed harder watching this show than I have watching many, many comedies. It is funny, it is really funny. But the thing that came out most from those interviews, and that stuck with me as well, is that basically this is a show about horrible people, just really, really bad people, the worst people. **[0:26:40] Natalie Kitroeff:** They kill, they cover up vast conspiracies, they run the entire world for their own benefit. And yet, somehow, and this is the thing that a lot of people try to wrestle with, you kinda end up rooting for them. **[0:26:54] Speaker 5:** I'm Andy Cohen and I voted for the New York Times best TV shows of the 21st century. I've known people like the Roy's, and, uh, I thought that the depiction in Succession was pitch perfect, the lifestyle and the world. It was, it was, it was exactly, uh, as some rarefied people live. I thought it was interesting because there's absolutely no one to root for on that show. You kind of root for Shiv, uh, for, you know, in and out for a few seasons, and then you kind of realize she's as bad as the rest of them. **[0:27:38] Speaker 5:** I mean, they're all truly horrible people. So, um, eh? Which is fascinating that a show with no one to root for could resonate and be so thrilling to watch. But it was, and I thought it was a great statement on media and culture and politics today. Boy, did they nail it. **[0:28:03] Gilbert Cruz:** It is amazing to have this show, which is about this media titan, Logan Roy, and his kids who are all trying to take over his company. And they're, as you say, they're all terrible, right? And yet, you don't necessarily need to have likable people to be invested in their stories, to be invested in their lives. **[0:28:26] Speaker 3:** Yeah, I, I, I love succession. I'm not sure that I would say that I I liked any of the Roy's, but I was, I was fascinated by them. There are these people who live in almost a different universe than the rest of us do, and **[0:28:40] James Poniewozik:** The rest of us are just ants to them. Yet they also have these desires and aches and motivations that you can recognize. You know, not being loved by your father, want, you know, feeling like a failure, want, you know, f the feelings of competitiveness and needing validation, uh, the beauty of it, I think, is that it was able to make all this very real without excusing any of the horribleness. Uh, you know, you just had to to y. **[0:29:14] James Poniewozik:** You had to live with both of them possibly. and **[0:29:16] Speaker 3:** And let them sit side by side. **[0:29:17] Natalie Kitroeff:** You. You took away the last six months I could have had with my dad. Yes, yes, you sucked up to him and you cut me out. **[0:29:28] Speaker 5:** it's not my fault that you didn't get his approval. **[0:29:34] Natalie Kitroeff:** And like Veep, amazing one liners that you will never forget. I mean, Logan Roy saying to his children, I love you, but you are not serious people. That will stick with me forever. I mean, the **[0:29:45] Gilbert Cruz:** Do you use that in your life? **[0:29:46] Natalie Kitroeff:** you know, I don't, but I think about it a lot. **[0:29:51] Speaker 5:** You are not serious figures. I love you, but you are not **[0:30:02] Speaker 3:** Serious people. **[0:30:06] James Poniewozik:** it's like a mythological kind of cruelty. I think, I think, I think, I think a lot of this show is sort of operates on kind of a mythological level. Where th these people are so powerful that they're almost transhuman for all their human frailties. **[0:30:25] Speaker 3:** Well, here's news. We are going after it. And what's more, I will win. **[0:30:46] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, number three. **[0:30:49] Gilbert Cruz:** Mad men? **[0:30:51] Speaker 3:** Every woman wants choices, but in the end, none wants to be one of a hundred in a box. She's unique, she makes the choices, and she's chosen him. She wants to tell the world he's mine, he belongs to me, not you. She marks her man with her lips. He is This her possession. **[0:31:13] Natalie Kitroeff:** was a show I liked, but I did not love as much as other people loved it. So tell me what people love so much about this show, because I understand that it is one of the best shows of all time. **[0:31:26] James Poniewozik:** I loved it like other people loved it, I loved it, maybe more than other people loved it. I may have loved it more than other shows that ended up higher than this show on the list. But but, you know, uh, th this show, which was an impeccably cast, beautifully crafted, brilliantly imagined picture of the advertising industry in the 1960s and very early 70s in New York. It worked on a lot of levels that great TV works on. **[0:31:56] James Poniewozik:** You know, Jon Hamm gives an amazing performance, Don Draper, the dashing protagonist with a secret past. **[0:32:05] Gilbert Cruz:** Get out of here and move forward. This never happened. It will shock you Hm, **[0:32:17] Speaker 3:** how much it never happened. **[0:32:20] James Poniewozik:** It's also a story about stories, because, you know, as it reminds you over and over, people in the advertising industry are basically people whose job is to tell America its stories and its myths to itself. **[0:32:37] Speaker 3:** Advertising is based on one thing happiness. **[0:32:43] James Poniewozik:** Maybe I'm a sucker for that because I was an English major, and so, you know, I just I, I sort of eat up that that kind of of rich text. **[0:32:52] Speaker 3:** It's a billboard on the side of the road that screams with reassurance that whatever you're doing, it's okay, you are okay. **[0:33:06] James Poniewozik:** I've watched this show probably more times than anything on the top of this list, **[0:33:12] Natalie Kitroeff:** How many times? **[0:33:13] James Poniewozik:** and at least four or five times in full. Um, you know, I've had family members who have re watched it, and so I've re watched it with them. B Besides **[0:33:20] Natalie Kitroeff:** that's amazing. **[0:33:21] James Poniewozik:** going back and re watching individual, there are great TV shows that, you know, I've seen, and I don't necessarily need to see them more than once. You know, I feel like I'm seeing new layers of craft and construction and artistry every time I watch the show. Gilbert **[0:33:38] Gilbert Cruz:** I've watched Mad Men all the way through several times as well. Um, and it it is just. It's wonderful to look at. Everyone looks so cool and stylish, and there's something about the 60s and people smoking and drinking, and there's a little fantasy fufillment there. But there is also a way in which this show is just as psychologically perceptive as any other show I've seen on TV. And I think it does have to do with the underlying conceit that Jim talked about. **[0:34:07] Gilbert Cruz:** It is about advertising, it is about, in a way, lying to people in order to sell a product. It's also about people lying to themselves and each other about who they are, who we are. It's very deep, amazingly performed, very funny, very funny show. Um, and and I, I just love it so much. **[0:34:27] Speaker 5:** I'm Coleman Domingo, and I voted for the New York Times best TV shows of the 21st century. **[0:34:33] Speaker 3:** Well, Mad Men ushered in the golden age of television, it really did. It was groundbreaking for AMC, and it really gave us characters like, uh, central characters that you can you sort of, um, believed in, but then you were conflicted by. You're looking at our culture, you're looking at how women are treated in our culture and how the things that they had to do. Um, the character Peggy is one of my favorite characters to watch her start from where she was starting, and then watch her evolve and find her voice. **[0:35:05] Speaker 3:** And also Don Draper, to see, like, you know, all his, uh, pitfalls, and look at it's deconstructing the myth, uh, and the American dream of the 1950s. **[0:35:15] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, getting closer to the top of the list here. Gilbert, what's number two? **[0:35:21] Gilbert Cruz:** The wire. **[0:35:27] Natalie Kitroeff:** This feels like the ultimate we don't really have time to dig into this show kinda show, but let's do what we can. **[0:35:34] Speaker 5:** Hey, yo, listen here, bash, you come at the king, you best not miss. **[0:35:43] James Poniewozik:** Um, I should start off saying that I was actually really stunned to see that the wire did not end up as number one. Same. That's it's not just because I think it's one of the most amazing achievements that's been accomplished on TV. Or, you know, maybe any popular art form. In terms of just telling this all encompassing story of the dysfunction of cities and of systems. And it was so broad and sprawling, and yet never felt like it was wasting your time or losing focus. **[0:36:18] Speaker 6:** I'm D. B. Weiss, and I voted for the New York Times. I'm David Benioff, and I voted for the New York Times best TV shows of the 21st century. I think the fourth season of The Wire is the greatest season of television, um, that I've seen. I just think it's, uh, kind of like a novel from beginning to end. The wire asks a lot of you, it demands a lot of you, and it deserves that from you. **[0:36:46] Speaker 5:** That season for me is just kind of shows what what television is capable, what a season of television is capable of, um, at its highest powers. **[0:36:55] Speaker 6:** Reading War and Peace isn't easy, it takes a lot of your time and a lot of attention. And ultimately, when you finish reading War and Peace, you're damn glad you finished reading War and Peace. And I kind of felt the same way about The Wire, which, on the upside, I think takes less time than reading War and Peace. **[0:37:14] James Poniewozik:** First of all, it's just got tremendously rich, flawed characters. Um, you know, on very rarely for TV, on one side of the law as much as on the other. Uh, you know, the the the criminals in this show are not just perps, they are people with ideas and motivations and backstories. **[0:37:37] Speaker 5:** I win if you catch the other dude's king and trap it, then you win, all right. But if I make it to the end, I'm top dog. Nah, yo, it ain't like that. Look pawns, man, in the game, they get capped quick, they be out the game early unless they some smart ass pawns. **[0:38:04] Gilbert Cruz:** The way that the show digs into the systems of America at all levels is what makes it so unique and so special. Uh, people have used the word novelistic to refer to this show, and I I think some people use it because books are fancier than TV. And so to call something novelistic means that you're giving it a level of appreciation that TV doesn't usually get. But I think it is appropriate in the way in which, unlike almost any other TV show, it it sort of moves between all these different levels. **[0:38:38] Speaker 5:** I'm Brett Goldstein, and I voted for the best TV shows of the 21st century for the New York Times. I'm not joking when I say this. The wire is how I understand the world. I I, I truly think it taught me how the world works, and what I mean by that is how people work. How not just the show shows you how the police work, how the government works, how the press works, how the drug dealers work, how the the stevedores work. **[0:39:10] Speaker 5:** It t shows you all of that, it shows you all the elements that make up a city. But the way that it expresses how hard it is to achieve anything good is so clear. It really did change how I saw the world and how people work, and how 90 of people are just trying to protect themselves. And and that's why it makes it impossible to achieve anything. **[0:39:40] Speaker 3:** And any small incremental change for good is a miracle. **[0:39:50] Gilbert Cruz:** I feel like this show more than any other show I've seen, uh, shines a very entertaining but very serious and very perceptive light on, like, **[0:40:00] James Poniewozik:** A dark corner of the American experiment. **[0:40:03] Speaker 6:** The job will not save you, Jimmy. It won't make you whole. It won't fill your ass up. I don't know. A good case ends. They all end. The handcuffs go click and it's over. And the next morning, it's just you in your room with yourself until the next case. Boy, you need something outside of this here. **[0:40:27] Natalie Kitroeff:** okay. I feel a little bit like we're saying that's enough about Hamlet, let's move on. But we do have to talk about number one on this list, which is Gilbert. **[0:40:40] Gilbert Cruz:** Breaking Bad. **[0:40:41] Natalie Kitroeff:** Who are you talking to right now? Who is it you think you see? What makes this the best show? And I'm asking you to embody the best case. I understand you may not agree, but make the case. **[0:40:57] Speaker 3:** Pfft business. **[0:41:03] Natalie Kitroeff:** Wow, do we have two non agreeers on the panel? Just to check? **[0:41:05] Gilbert Cruz:** I mean, it's I l it's. It's an Yeah, I just wanted incredible show. I've to, Yeah, just, you know, it's I, you know, not just not the wire, right? **[0:41:10] James Poniewozik:** it's a yeah. It's a show that I probably would've put in my top five or top ten. **[0:41:14] Speaker 3:** I am not in danger, Skyler, I am the danger. A guy opens his door **[0:41:19] Speaker 5:** And gets shot. and And you think that of me? No, I am the one who knocks. **[0:41:26] Gilbert Cruz:** So Breaking Bad show created by Vince Gilligan is essentially the story of Walter White, uh, who, when we start the series, is a chemistry teacher. He finds out that he has cancer, doesn't have that much longer to live, and he decides to get into the meth business. Because he knows chemistry so well, he is gonna produce the finest meth that has ever been produced. Get a bunch of money, leave it for his family. And along the way, he turns into essentially a kingpin in Albuquerque. **[0:42:00] Speaker 5:** That's right. Now. Say my name. Heisenberg, you're goddamn right. **[0:42:17] Gilbert Cruz:** It is a crime show, people love crime shows. It has an amazing cast, uh, you know, starring with Bryan Cranston, uh, it has amazing villains, including Giancarlo Esposito as, uh, Gus Fring. It is tense, it is violent. It arrived at a perfect moment for the binge age. This show is made to be binged. It has incredible cliffhangers, it has incredible energy and forward motion. Um, it, **[0:42:46] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, can I just say I, um, had watched what I thought was almost all of Breaking Bad, um, and then stopped watching it because it was too intense. And so in preparation for this, I fired it back up. Because I was like, I have to see the end. Turns out, I was not as close to the end as I thought. So then I had to binge basically all of the last season of Breaking Bad. And can I just say it's not an enjoyable experience? **[0:43:15] Natalie Kitroeff:** Um, I hear you that those cliffhangers, so you just wanna keep eating it up, but it does something to you, it messes with your head, I think I think, **[0:43:22] Gilbert Cruz:** a lot of people like that, just just to be clear. **[0:43:25] James Poniewozik:** yeah, I. I also think that that kind of points up something that was really interesting in the experience of TV and how we watched TV in the 21st century. Which is okay. A lot of people watched Breaking Bad slowly, the old fashioned TV way. They watched one episode a week and then another one the next week, and then they waited a year or whatever, and they watched the next season, right? And some people did what you did, and you know, you know, uh uh, enjoyed it better than you did, maybe, but, maybe you know, re really plowed through this, uh, now, now, now, what's the difference between those? **[0:43:55] James Poniewozik:** Well, uh uh, as Gilbert was saying, what Breaking Bad is really rooted in is a moral question. And I think the interesting question that Gilligan raises in the show is, did Walter White's experience turn him from a good person to a bad person? Or was there this potentially bad person all the time in him? That had the opportunity to get out because of his circumstances? And I honestly think that the way you see that might well depend on, you know, how you watched the show. **[0:44:30] James Poniewozik:** If you watch it slowly over time, that's so it can seem more like it's a good person turning into a bad person. If you binge it, you may be more likely to see that. No, this is actually the story of somebody who, you know, Heisenberg was in him all along, uh, and was just waiting to bust out. **[0:44:45] Natalie Kitroeff:** Heisenberg being his uh nom de guerre, uh, his **[0:44:49] James Poniewozik:** His nom de meth. **[0:44:52] Gilbert Cruz:** As part of this project, our TV editor Jeremiah got to interview Vince Gilligan and a couple of castmates of Breaking Bad. And the subject of the anti-hero came up, and Vince Gilligan, who wrote one of this era's great anti-heroes, was raising the question of Have we done it enough? Has, in a way, reality and fiction started to come together? And maybe we don't actually need to to sort of, uh, laud people who are doing bad things. **[0:45:24] Speaker 6:** The whole anti-hero thing in general, it was still a pretty new thing. I'm kind of thinking now, seeing the world the way it is, if I had my druthers, they'd be considered cautionary tales, not aspirational. I, I don't know. Maybe we've had enough anti-heroes for a while, seeing the country the way the shape that it's in. **[0:45:43] Natalie Kitroeff:** I think that Vince Gilligan gets to do that because he did this thing better than a lot of people did it. And part of the trick, I think that he used at several moments during that show, was putting Walt up against someone who was more Worse than him. Yeah, evil, right, **[0:46:01] James Poniewozik:** yeah, uh uh, which, you know, is probably a a trick that a lot of these anti-hero dramas that we see represented on this list do from time to time. And it's a way of keeping you invested, of wanting you to see the thing that Walt is trying to accomplish, you know, get accomplished. And and pulling you along to the point where, at some point, you have to stand back and you think, Oh my God, like, what am I doing? **[0:46:27] James Poniewozik:** Why am I? Why am I behind this guy? You know, is, you know, at what point does he go too far? It's it's really a difficult trick to to pull off without either rationalizing evil or turning off your audience. **[0:46:46] Speaker 6:** I'm Matthew Weiner, and I voted for the New York Times best. **[0:46:48] Gilbert Cruz:** I'm Debbie Jacobs, and I voted for **[0:46:50] Speaker 6:** I'm Richard Gad, and I voted in the New York Times top 100 best TV shows of the century. **[0:46:57] Speaker 5:** Nobody, I don't care what anybody says, nobody but Brian knew that he had that in him. **[0:47:03] Gilbert Cruz:** I don't know if my loyalty shifted watching Breaking Bad, um, as much as it was interesting to gauge where culture was at. **[0:47:11] Speaker 5:** It was a real parody on sort of the health system in America and the kind of ludicrous lengths some people have to go to to get help and look after people when they're gone. And he's a model for casting against type, or for the philosophical reality that everybody has that kind of violence in them. And if they're pushed to it, **[0:47:33] Gilbert Cruz:** But I think it's some of the best examples of television, right in Golden Age. Um, really getting to dive into anti heroes and questionable morals. And **[0:47:43] Speaker 5:** right at the heart of it was intense, brilliant, uh, social, political commentary, alongside, you know, the best acting and best storytelling you'll ever see. It's an unbelievable show. **[0:48:00] Natalie Kitroeff:** All right, we're gonna take another quick break, and when we come back, we're gonna talk about what's not on this list. We'll be right back. This week on the Wire Cutter show, you don't need to be afraid of a pressure cooker. **[0:48:22] Speaker 3:** We are in the 2nd generation phase of stovetop pressure cookers. So if you walk away and you leave it over too high of a heat, it's gonna vent itself. We're talking about one pot meals and all the ways to make them. Find the Wirecutter show on the New York Times app or wherever you like to listen. **[0:48:45] Natalie Kitroeff:** So we're getting near the end here, and I feel like we need to take a second to talk about what this list, in all its great wisdom, may have gotten wrong. So I want each of us to talk about a show that should be on the list or should be higher on the list, but isn't. I'm gonna start with my favorite show in TV history, The Sopranos. **[0:49:08] Speaker 5:** They said it was a panic attack, of course, all the, uh, blood work and the neurological work came back negative. And they sent me here. **[0:49:18] Speaker 3:** You don't agree that you had a panic attack. How are you feeling now? **[0:49:26] Speaker 5:** Good, fine, back at work. **[0:49:29] Gilbert Cruz:** what line of work are you in? **[0:49:34] Speaker 5:** Waste management consultant. **[0:49:37] Natalie Kitroeff:** Gilbert, I get the sense you've been hearing from readers about the fact that The Sopranos is not on this list. Would you care to quickly just set the record straight about that? **[0:49:45] Gilbert Cruz:** I would like to set the record straight. The Sopranos, which is a great show, one of the best TV shows of all time, came out in 1999. 1999, um, was before our cutoff, and, uh, one could say, why did you have that cutoff? And I would say, because we need rules in this world, and this is the rule that we came up with. **[0:50:06] Natalie Kitroeff:** Jim, how do you feel about that cutoff issue? **[0:50:08] James Poniewozik:** oh, I, I actually argued for it. I think a list of 21st century shows means shows that you could not have watched in the 20th century. But I think we also pulled off a little magic trick here. Uh, the Sopranos is not on the list, but also it is everywhere on the list. **[0:50:28] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, say why, explain that. **[0:50:30] James Poniewozik:** What this list really ends up being because of the peculiar nature of when the 21st century happened to begin is a portrait of TV after the Sopranos changed much of what TV could be, right? The Sopranos debuts in 1999. It's one of the 1st big sort of cultural phenomenon shows on HBO. It ends up bringing in an era when cable starts to surpass network TV, uh, as a creative force, which we see all over this list. **[0:51:10] James Poniewozik:** It introduces the idea of the anti-hero and challenges the idea of what kind of show people will watch. Do people only want to root for the good guy? It's pretty easy to draw a line from Tony Soprano to Walter White. You know, you can see some of that in in succession. You can see it in in, uh, lesser ways, in a show like House, a show about, you know, a doctor diagnosing illnesses. That's a a classic TV genre, but it's a doctor who's kind of a jerk. **[0:51:40] James Poniewozik:** Hm, hm. It introduces an idea of that seriality, you know, uh uh, the telling an ongoing story that doesn't just wrap up at the end of the episode, but continues out over episodes and seasons. That that is something that people have the patience for and will get engaged in. This The Sopranos in 1999 demonstrates that you can do these new things in television. And this class of shows that begins in 2000 shows the after effects of this. **[0:52:13] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, well, thank you for indulging my Sopranos love, even though it had no business being on a list that was just in the 21st century. Give me your shows. What should have been on here, Gilbert? **[0:52:25] Gilbert Cruz:** This is a sick and perverse show, and I just love it, love it, love it so much. It is a show called Hannibal. **[0:52:34] Speaker 3:** You must be terribly proud that you could bring this off. What will be the first cuts of meals served? The first course, of course, will be your hands and feet sizzling on a Promethean barbecue. It was on NBC, And **[0:52:48] Gilbert Cruz:** it was, uh, TV version of the story that we saw on the big screen in the movies Manhunter and The Silence of the Lambs about the character Hannibal Lecter. Um, and it is one of the grossest things I've ever seen in my entire life. I don't know how it made it onto network TV, but it also is one of the most, I would argue, one of the most beautiful shows that has ever been put on TV. **[0:53:14] Natalie Kitroeff:** Well, there have been a recent run of cannibalistic shows that have done well on TV. So, uh, you know, **[0:53:20] Gilbert Cruz:** I'm not endorsing cannibalism, that's not what I'm here to do. I just think it's it's beautiful. Um, the acting was, uh, awesome and bananas, um, and it's just it did not belong on TV, and yet there it was. And I, uh, I just felt like it was a show that was done just for me. **[0:53:39] Speaker 3:** did you just smell me? **[0:53:41] Gilbert Cruz:** Difficult to avoid. **[0:53:44] Speaker 5:** I really must introduce you to a finer aftershave that smells like something with a ship on the bottle. I keep getting it for Christmas. **[0:53:50] Natalie Kitroeff:** Jim, how do you feel about Hannibal? **[0:53:51] James Poniewozik:** uh, it kind of just left me a little cold, honestly, but I think it was really well executed. And, uh, you know, I, I was a little surprised it wasn't on the list. I live in **[0:54:00] Gilbert Cruz:** the cold. It'll it it warmed me up, Jim. **[0:54:03] Natalie Kitroeff:** Gilbert wanted darker on this list. Jim, what about you? **[0:54:08] James Poniewozik:** Ah, Natalie, where do I start? There are so many shows that that I would have put on this list if if I were God. Uh, Adventure Time, **[0:54:16] Speaker 5:** 100 awesome. **[0:54:19] James Poniewozik:** I would have loved to seen transparent on this list. **[0:54:21] Speaker 3:** my name is not Laura. **[0:54:23] James Poniewozik:** I was very surprised that Orange is the New Black is not on. **[0:54:28] Speaker 3:** But it's just been one day and I I can't, I can't I can't. **[0:54:31] Natalie Kitroeff:** My god, these are good ones. It's stunning Wait just **[0:54:33] James Poniewozik:** that there's not more reality TV. Uh, I think you can make a strong case for putting Jackass on this is like a great work of American art. But **[0:54:40] Natalie Kitroeff:** Wow! Incredible Jackass. The but but That's not the reality TV show I expected you to say should've Know. Been on this list, but I Oh, I love Get it. it more. But Say but say why Jackass, and just make the case real quick cause I gotta hear it. **[0:54:52] James Poniewozik:** I mean, Jackass is just like it it is what it is uh, you know, which i which is this amazing anarchic prank show that like a lot of the best television is just reveling in the idea of can we have fun filming this and putting it on the air? **[0:55:13] Speaker 11:** I'm Johnny Knoxville. And this is the bear trap. You **[0:55:16] James Poniewozik:** Know? Th- that's that's, you know, Sometimes. The heart of, like, a lot of, you know, the great, like, David Letterman pranks and, uh, it is this beautiful, like, hilarious, distilled chaos. **[0:55:32] Speaker 11:** Who knows? **[0:55:32] James Poniewozik:** Uh, uh, but a show that I I not only would have put on this list that is not on it, but I probably would've put in my top 10, uh, is a show that you may have forgotten or never heard of, called Rectify. On this list. **[0:55:50] Speaker 9:** When you are alone with yourself all the time, with no one but yourself, you begin to go deeper and deeper into yourself until you lose yourself. It's a perverse contradiction. **[0:56:05] James Poniewozik:** Uh, that was about a man who had been released from prison and returned home and was trying to get his life together and possibly clear his name. **[0:56:17] Speaker 9:** And I'm not sure anyone unless they have gone through it can can can truly understand how profound that loss is. It was It's like a psychic beautifully acted, wound of sensitive, nuanced, existence. **[0:56:35] James Poniewozik:** almost like religious exploration of redemption and grace and forgiveness. That maybe for those reasons never generated that much of an audience, but I, you know, I just think was a a gorgeous character portrait that didn't get enough attention then and now, but if you can seek it out on streaming, **[0:56:59] Speaker 9:** It has. **[0:57:00] James Poniewozik:** I highly recommend you add to your List. **[0:57:02] Speaker 9:** is. But I honestly can't say that I did, in fact, kill her. Because I just don't remember. For the life of me. And that's your truth. **[0:57:29] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, well, that really makes me wanna watch Rectify. Hannibal, I'm gonna have to think about. Maybe I'll cue it up. One of the best things about this list, I understand, is that it is very interactive, right? Readers can kind of participate in it. **[0:57:42] Gilbert Cruz:** Absolutely. So, you know, we got hundreds of people in the industry to ask them what they think. But we also want New York Times readers and listeners to have their say, and so, uh, they can go and pick their own top 10 shows, and they can share that. They can also vote, and we will count all them up and let people know what the readers of the New York Times think are the top 100 shows of the 21st century. **[0:58:05] Gilbert Cruz:** And I expect there are gonna be several different titles on that list. **[0:58:08] Natalie Kitroeff:** All right, we'll see if the sopranos can make it in somehow on that That's not how List. **[0:58:12] Gilbert Cruz:** The calendar works, but sure. **[0:58:13] Natalie Kitroeff:** Okay, well, I'm gonna hold out hope. Jim, Gilbert, thank you both so much for being here. **[0:58:18] Ad read:** Thank you. **[0:58:19] Gilbert Cruz:** Thank you, Natalie. **[0:58:27] Natalie Kitroeff:** To view the full list of the 100 best TV shows of the century, you can visit nytimes.com/best TV. This episode was produced by Alex Baron. It was edited by Wendy Door. Fact-checking by Lena Richards, Tina Antolini, and Alyssa Dudley. It was engineered by Rowan Niemistow and contains music from Dan Powell, production assistance from Dahlia Hadad. That's it for the Sunday Daily. I'm Natalie Kitroeff. See you tomorrow. **[0:59:13] Ad read:** I'm MJ Franklin, and this week on the Book Review podcast, Sweetsy by Emma Klein. Hands down, the novel with the most impressive control I've read this year. Someone is losing their mind, and they're approaching their death. Completely moving, elegantly written. I just got lost in the prose of it, which sometimes feels like poetry to me. What does a life add up to? What does it all mean? Listen to the book review wherever you get your podcasts.