# Laird Hamilton: The Mindset That Changed Surfing Forever | Sean Callagy

- **Show:** Unblinded with Sean Callagy
- **Published:** 29 Sep 2026
- **Source:** https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/unblindedwithseancallagy/episodes/Laird-Hamilton-The-Mindset-That-Changed-Surfing-Forever--Sean-Callagy-e3pipmj
- **Transcript:** https://podcasts.opennash.com/shows/unblinded/laird-hamilton-the-mindset-that-changed-surfing-forever-sean-callagy-d067a3/
- **Provider:** OpenNash Podcasts (machine-generated)

## In brief

Laird Hamilton argues that limits are usually limits of method, not of human ability. Each time he hit a ceiling in big-wave surfing, he invented a new method: paddling gave way to tow-in surfing, and tow-in gave way to hydrofoil surfing. Host Sean Callagy presents him as proof that fear is often exaggerated and that mastery and character matter more than talent.

The conversation moves between spectacle and values. The spectacle is 80-to-100-foot waves, a bleeding teammate and a swim past sharks. The values are the lessons from a poor, rule-bound childhood in Hawaii: do small tasks perfectly, be generous, and work as a team. The tension is that Hamilton's feats look reckless, yet he says they rest on preparation, calm and incremental risk. Sean sets a personal goal of riding a big wave despite being blind.

## Key insights

1. **Each ceiling prompted a new method** Hamilton says paddling could not catch the biggest waves, so he and his friends began towing in behind boats and later jet skis. Towing then could not get down 80-to-100-foot faces, which pushed him toward foiling. The pattern is to treat a limit as a prompt to change the method.
2. **Seeing the finished result comes before inventing** Hamilton says an idea needs a clear picture of its end result, then patience through failed prototypes while others discourage you. Towing was dismissed for roughly eight to ten years before the Tahiti ride earned it respect.
3. **Proof of possibility spreads quickly** Hamilton compares the Tahiti wave to the four-minute mile. Once someone does what was called impossible, others follow because the mental barrier is gone. He says the earlier wave was seen as unridable until he rode it.
4. **Big-wave safety is built from skill and gear** Hamilton describes three routes into danger: denial, ignorance and experience. He trains calm in turbulence and brings newcomers up gradually, from low-consequence waves to harder ones. Flotation, airbags and fast jet skis made the sport safer, though he says they also encourage recklessness.
5. **Generosity reveals character under pressure** Hamilton says generosity predicts how someone behaves in many situations, because a truly generous person will risk their life for you. Sean's account of the rescue of teammate Brett Lickle is the example. Hamilton also carried plates and surfboards for his host.

## Questions this episode answers

### What is tow-in surfing and why did Laird Hamilton invent it?

Tow-in surfing means being pulled onto a wave by a boat or jet ski instead of paddling, which lets a rider catch waves too big or fast to paddle into. Hamilton says he reached a ceiling in paddling and began towing, first behind inflatable boats and later jet skis.

### What happened in the Brett Lickle shark-water rescue?

Sean's retelling, which Hamilton confirmed as accurate, is that Brett was badly cut on huge waves and bleeding in the water. Hamilton swam against the current to a jet ski, got it started and brought Brett in to an ambulance. He then went back out to surf, because he thought he might never see waves like that again.

### What does Hamilton mean by hitting a ceiling?

He means the point where your current method cannot go any further, such as paddling being unable to catch the biggest waves. His view is that this is a limit of method, not of what is possible, so you invent a new method.

### What is foiling and how did it come from the big-wave days?

Foiling is riding a board with an underwater wing, called a hydrofoil, that lifts it above the water. Hamilton says towed boards got stuck from friction on faces of 80 to 100 feet, and he believed only foiling could handle waves that big.

### What is Hamilton's next big wave goal?

He described a possible open-ocean attempt near Cape Horn at the tip of South America, in an area called Drake's Passage. He said that waves of 80 to 100 feet break there at sea, and that the main problems are logistics and safety support.

## Facts

- **Laird Hamilton** [0:04:10]: "We moved to the most dangerous beach in the world, and and I that I learned how to swim, uh, at the most dangerous beach in the world."
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:11:41]: "And so she started going to work and eventually started the first helicopter company, um, in Hawaii that toured, cause she had a friend that was a Vietnam vet"
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:30:31]: "So I knew how to drive, and I had another friend that had the same experience."
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:31:44]: "I did stand up paddling for eight years before anybody ever did it"
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:34:33]: "the truth is that Towing was really not respected. People were were kind of slandering it for a good solid eight to ten years."
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:36:05]: "I cried after after that, that session. I had tears in my eyes just because it had been, and that was when I was thirty-five."
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:36:48]: "And then, I mean, I describe it a little bit like the four-minute mile. After that, once they understood what was possible, it changed the whole thinking."
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:42:52]: "In the beginning, we didn't wear flotation devices. Now, all big wave riding, everybody's wearing flotation, right?"
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:44:09]: "I've been held down two waves one time, and it was, uh, it was foiling, and in the early days of foiling, we were doing, we were riding, foiling in giant surf"
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:47:11]: "So if you're doing a two wave hold down, you're gonna be down for more than a minute."
- **Sean Callagy** [0:52:40]: "And this John Brett Lickle gets cut, like from the back of his knee, you know, all the way down to his foot, and he is down to the bone, and he's bleeding to death in the ocean."
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:57:56]: "The waves were taking four to five seconds for the lip to fall, so it was one one thousand, two, one thousand, three, one thousand, four, one thousand, five before they hit."
- **Laird Hamilton** [0:59:14]: "First, we hit a ceiling in paddling, then we created towing, then we hit a ceiling in towing, then we created foiling."
- **Laird Hamilton** [1:00:25]: "we just learned recently that the surf surfers microbiome actually are v- v- very closely tied to water mammals."
- **Laird Hamilton** [1:02:41]: "There's a famous passage called Drake's Passage, and it's it's where a lot of ships sink."
- **Laird Hamilton** [1:11:43]: "I always say there's three ways people go about doing dangerous stuff. There's denial, ignorance and skill, or experience, should I say, so you have denial, ignorance and experience."
- **Laird Hamilton** [1:13:52]: "I have somebody that I've been towing with for, you know, twenty, twenty-five years."
- **Laird Hamilton** [1:16:11]: "I had one of those as a prototype and with a waist belt, and I had a fanny pack, and then had a CO2 bottle."
- **Laird Hamilton** [1:16:53]: "now the jet skis are s, you know, sixty miles an hour out of a box, and they used to be, you know, you'd be lucky to get twenty out of them"
- **Sean Callagy** [0:41:17]: "That I am 100% committing to take that to the highest level, um, and see if I could get up on a giant wave."

## Transcript

**[0:00:00] Narrator:** Some people are built by life. He built himself out of cold water, open ocean, and a refusal to accept any ceiling is final. He swam a mile against the current, injured in shark infested water to save his teammate's life. Then the moment that teammate was safe, he went back out. Not because he was reckless, because that is who he is. The truest living example of what becomes possible when identity never negotiates with conditions. Laird Hamilton

**[0:00:29] Sean Callagy:** And like, I'm gonna surf an effing big wave. So So do so, do you think we have a shot well, so my like

**[0:00:37] Laird Hamilton:** mom used to say, you know, the way God punishes you is he give you what you ask for. So we can definitely accommodate you and we'll bring you back in one piece.

**[0:00:51] Sean Callagy:** And he is down to the bone and he's bleeding to death in the ocean. So Laird gets like naked in the ocean and like, takes off his clothes and makes a tourniquet.

**[0:01:02] Laird Hamilton:** If you were naked and you were swimming a mile offshore in an area that you knew that there were some big sharks, you would be an incredible swimmer. Like, if Amen. you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for someone.

**[0:01:19] Sean Callagy:** So we said, Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen, thank you. Okay, how are you doing, sir?

**[0:01:31] Laird Hamilton:** Very well, thank you.

**[0:01:33] Sean Callagy:** Well, thank you so much for being here, and

**[0:01:35] Laird Hamilton:** Honored, I'm honored to meet you and, uh, and meet your beautiful people.

**[0:01:41] Sean Callagy:** thank you. And as these folks know, uh, cause we we're gonna surprise them with your coming today, but we decided cause it just fit in a moment. I decided to share that you were coming. Uh, you know, these folks know out there, um, how inspiring you are, uh, to me, how inspiring you are in the world. And certainly many of these people were inspired by you before hearing your name here. Some discovered it, and uniformly, these people are truly deeply moved.

**[0:02:12] Sean Callagy:** Um, so what I'd love to do, if it's okay with you, is just, you know, maybe begin at the beginning. Um, and Hawaii being born, being three, sort of, what was that journey into the water and life like for you?

**[0:02:27] Laird Hamilton:** Uh, well, my mother was met her high school sweetheart and, uh, and got pregnant. And then it was the sixties, so he wanted to be a merchant marine and she was pregnant. And so he left and she had to figure out what she was gonna do. And she went to San Francisco and, uh, I was born there. She actually worked at a fair right before and was able to get, like, a free hospital thing done in San Francisco.

**[0:02:56] Laird Hamilton:** Um, they did some experiments on her. I'm not sure if that had an effect on me or not. Um, so

**[0:03:03] Sean Callagy:** Well, it was, it was a good one.

**[0:03:05] Laird Hamilton:** exactly. And then and then she just took me, uh, you know, she she grew up in a in a surf culture in Southern California. She took me to, uh, and it was, you know, it was obviously the sixties. It was the war. It was all the stuff that was going on. And it was like, you know, they called it the surfers called it the rat race, and we need to get out of here. So she took me to Hawaii because that represented paradise, uh, and as an infant, I was kind of subjected to, you know, surf surfers and surfing.

**[0:03:42] Laird Hamilton:** Uh, I went, you know, I can remember being pushed in on little waves when I was probably two years old and falling on urchins and having both butt cheeks impaled, uh, to the point where I couldn't sit down for a couple of weeks. And, you know, left an impact on me, of course, and in me. But you know, the, uh, and then we moved to, uh, what was the most dangerous beach in the in the at the time.

**[0:04:10] Laird Hamilton:** My mother said that I could actually crawl to the pool and swim before I could, um, before I could walk. I don't know if that's a truth or not, but I would go to the pool and you. They always had to watch, cause I would always just go to the water. And maybe it's being a Pisces or something, it has something to do with it, I'm not sure. But, uh, and then I. We moved to the most dangerous beach in the world, and and I that I learned how to swim, uh, at the most dangerous beach in the world.

**[0:04:37] Laird Hamilton:** And, uh, actually, I learned how to not drown. That was really the better thing. More importantly, never mind the swimming, just don't drown. And and I got rescued a lot as a young child, and all of the men, uh, that were around me were all watermen. You know, they were all all kind of the fearless group of of surfers that were going out in the big surf in in Hawaii. And so that was, you know, I wanted to emulate that.

**[0:05:04] Laird Hamilton:** I looked at that and I was like, I wanna that's what I, you know, it'd be like if you grew up next to a stadium and you were like, Hey, I wanna be like that guy, he's the champ. And, uh, and so that was a foundation. Uh, you know, I and and I, I introduced, what? like, and I introduced

**[0:05:20] Sean Callagy:** yeah, please.

**[0:05:20] Laird Hamilton:** my dad, uh, to my mom. I liked that's the story they let me tell. I think he knew my mom was very attractive, and so he acted like he never met her. And I'm like, Hey, come meet. And and so technically, I chose someone who I thought would be like what my dad would be. And And how old were introduced him.

**[0:05:41] Sean Callagy:** how old were you?

**[0:05:41] Laird Hamilton:** I was, uh, five, probably four when I introduced her, but five when they got married. He was young and and a great surfer, um, handsome. Yeah, I mean, it's it's kinda crazy because in a ways, you know, my wife has seen pictures of him when I when he was young, and she's like, she thought that they were me, like, that's, you know, and no relation, like, no relation. But like, Oh yeah, is that you? And I'm like, No, that's Bill when he was young, and so I had that, I had, uh, I had I had that dynamic initially, and and then it turned into kind of a competition between him and I.

**[0:06:17] Laird Hamilton:** Um, in Hawaii, you know, I can I? I don't. I never cry poor me, but when you're you look like I do, and you're in Hawaii, you kinda, you know, you're like a descendant of Captain Cook who destroyed the place, so you they don't love you. So I had that, and and my family was poor. We grew up next to a pig farm, and I grew up next to kind of farming, fishing, hunting, all that kind of stuff.

**[0:06:41] Laird Hamilton:** So I had all that as I was growing up, um, to help teach me. And and, uh, and was always attracted to the ocean. Uh, because that was a place that I found equality that, you know, I always say, we're all equal before a wave. There was no discrimination. I didn't care how rich, how smart, how strong it was. The only thing that separated you from the other people was what you knew and what they didn't.

**[0:07:04] Laird Hamilton:** And so I I really liked that because that was something that I could actually perfect. So if I got better at it, the better I got at it, the more I could separate myself. Uh, and and and, uh, and and maybe it was a place to look for respect. I always would say, Hey, I don't care if you like me, but you'll respect me. And so I I worked on that, and I had a natural, uh, I had a natural inkling for danger.

**[0:07:32] Laird Hamilton:** I just was like a little daredevil. And I think that's what probably drove my mom into an early grave. I think my mom, you know, she always thought I was gonna die. She was like, Oh, he lived to six. Oh wow, he lived to eight, you know, he lived to ten. Wow, he's twelve, he made it, you know, he's fourteen. It was like, every, you know, every day, every year was it was, you know, crazy stuff.

**[0:07:52] Laird Hamilton:** And we lived like, like a little bit like wild Indians in the jungle. No shoes, no pants, maybe shorts, lucky if you had a t-shirt, usually no shirts, just surf shorts in the jungle and sharp things and coral and and strong riptides. And so that that was kind of the foundation of my, uh, uh, of my school was terrible. Um, not a place I wanted to be. You know, you're in the tropics, it's beautiful, there's surfing, and then you're gonna go sit in this like room and be with a bunch of people that don't like you.

**[0:08:21] Laird Hamilton:** And you had to ride the bus for two hours each way. And I was just like, I seem to miss that a lot, that bus, um, like a lot, like, like a lot, like most of the time, like, I just think I miss that bus. And so that so I had that as my kind of my foundation. And then, uh, and then as I grew, I just was attracted to to bigger and bigger situations. And and, uh, and I think because of my background, like all the things that we had to do, you know, we'd always have to fix everything because th- you didn't have.

**[0:08:55] Laird Hamilton:** There was no one to call, you didn't call somebody to fix things, you fixed them, or you knew somebody in your neighborhood who fixed them, so you learned how to fix them. So I think that helped me be creative. Um, they did some weird stuff to me in my education, which affected my reading initially. And my mom used to read some amazing books to me growing up. She she, uh, she read like the Lord of the Rings and Jonathan Livingston Seagull and all these beautiful books, uh, to me to expand my imagination.

**[0:09:27] Laird Hamilton:** And so, and I think we had we had TV, but we had rabbit ears with with aluminum foil, and we had a bare tin roof. So you'd watch a movie on TV that you could barely see, and then the rain would come right at the conclusion, and so you'd always just never hear what happened. You'd be over there by the speaker and you're like, Hey, what's what's the scoop? So it wasn't, you know, and then the TV went off and didn't go on till the next day.

**[0:09:50] Laird Hamilton:** Um, so we didn't have a lot of, you know, we didn't have a lot of outside interference. Uh, and then I was able to be with Hawaiians that were beautiful, the Polynesians, and and learn their. They still lived off the land at that time. There was no Costco yet. Uh, that kind of put a hammering on that, like hunting or go to Costco. Wow, easier to go to Costco. So, but I was able, kind of, like, in a a little bit of a time forgotten.

**[0:10:14] Laird Hamilton:** And I think that definitely has had a huge impact on my creativity, on on my ability to kind of problem solve all those things. It really, really helped me in in the pursuit of of kind of my passion. And you know, my mom didn't. I think the first time my mom saw me surf, she might have been, uh, like, in her late thirties or something like that, uh, maybe early forties. And we were surfing uh, jaws, it was giant, and somebody goes, Oh, Laird's on a wave.

**[0:10:48] Laird Hamilton:** And I think they said she walked out to the cliff, she looked, and she just turned around and goes, I can't watch this. And so, uh, so, um, but she, my mom, was always about just how you were as a person, you know, like, what kind of per person you were, how you treated people. And, uh, that's what, what, like, that was the rule, like it. I don't care what you do when you do it, do it the best to your ability.

**[0:11:11] Laird Hamilton:** And, uh, I don't care if you're sweeping the floor, sweep the floor perfectly, as best you can, 100%. And so it. It didn't matter what the task was, it was always about completion and and giving it your your your best effort. And so, and she worked, you know, my mother worked very hard growing up. She was, uh, my stepdad didn't just wanted to surf, and so he wanted to be on welfare. And my mom's like, I'm embarrassed to go to the store and pay with food stamps, and I'm not gonna use discount coupons.

**[0:11:41] Laird Hamilton:** And so she started going to work and eventually started the first helicopter company, um, in Hawaii that toured, cause she had a friend that was a Vietnam vet, and eventually just built a whole, um, life for herself and for us. I mean, I can remember my mom going to the laundromat. I mean, we had all kinds of rules at my house. The one I lived in had been moved twice by tidal waves, and we had like screen windows and a bare tin roof.

**[0:12:05] Laird Hamilton:** And like I said, when it rained hard, you you couldn't really talk, cause it was so loud, and it rains a lot on Kauai. It's the wettest place on in the world, and so there was a lot of not talking, you know, there was

**[0:12:18] Sean Callagy:** Can I say one thing? So so that so I want everybody to know this. I could for one sec that. So we've had a lot of incredible people, um, on this podcast, and um, they've been like nice folks. Some have acted very nicely, some have been a little more interesting. So, you know, this is Laird Hamilton, and he's in the house, like, like, taking my plate and like, I'm gonna throw this away. And no, like I, I got the water and I'm gonna help do.

**[0:12:56] Sean Callagy:** Th- I'm, uh, he's like, I'm, I'm carrying the surfboard. I'm like, Laird, please, like, I, I, I don't wanna carry a surfboard like, that's crazy. He's like, Of course, I'm gonna carry the surfboard, and he's like, What do you wanna do now? what do I do next? And I'm like, Oh, if you need a break, terrestri- no, I, I could chill anytime I want to, like, I'm here to spend time and like, let's go do stuff.

**[0:13:20] Sean Callagy:** And I just wanna say how grateful I am and how much he lives. His words, you know, we hear people say, Well, my mom taught me and we had rules, and you do things, you do it right. Like, that could sound like a cliche, except when you're actually living it. And I got to experience that, not because of him just being in the water today, which was a dream come true for me. And again, thank you.

**[0:13:46] Sean Callagy:** But I'm sitting there and he's carrying surfboards, and he's picking up plates, carrying them, and not only his own, but like, trying to take mine and take it. Um, so let's give it up for that, please. Yeah, well, thank you. And and right, so thank you. And, um,

**[0:14:06] Laird Hamilton:** we do. We do live in a time, uh, please. that when you help people, it's a novelty, and it's kind of weird in a way. I'm like, you do what you're supposed to do, and that's somehow n- a novelty. I'm like, that seems strange, like, and that's we're a little bit in that time right now. It seems it. W- my wife and I talk about it a lot, just like, you know, acting how you're supposed to, being kind, being polite, doing the things that you're supposed to do is now rare.

**[0:14:37] Laird Hamilton:** And that's that's a crazy world to live in, because that's not what the world's supposed to be, and so it's it's, uh, it's, yeah. I mean, I guess everybody has to live by their own code, but I'm just like, be how you're supposed to, and like, Wow, that's, you know. And and I'm not saying that, you know, that no one's doing that, but you if you. When you live in this world, it seems rare that when people are actually, you know, just acting like you're supposed to act, be how you're supposed to be, be polite, be helpful.

**[0:15:08] Laird Hamilton:** Do the things that you're supposed to do as a person in a community, as person, a part of the human race. It's like, Hey, somebody's hurt, help em out something like, you know, my mom used to take in stray dogs. I mean, she had this one dog that was just the most mangy dog you've ever seen, and I used to have to wash the dog. I'm like, M, they wanted to put it down, like they were like, Hey, they're gonna put the.

**[0:15:28] Laird Hamilton:** She's like, Oh, we're not gonna put that dog down. I think it was his most snags or something like that, but

**[0:15:34] Sean Callagy:** So today, I in, you know, continuing this context, um, a lot of different people are like, could we shoot a quick video? could we do a quick this? could we do a quick that? And that was certainly not with Laird blessing us with coming here within the scope of what we were talking about. And he just, no problem, no problem, no problem, no problem. And at some point I'm like, Oh yeah, no, they're also, you know, with us here.

**[0:15:57] Sean Callagy:** And he said, You know, okay, cool, he goes, but I do the same thing if they weren't right, and that's just for all of us. I I why am I saying this? Not only because, um, to acknowledge that which we would hope people would act like, but most don't. But also to let everybody know when you're interacting with people who hold a tremendous identity value, um, a lot of those folks, or at least some of those folks, will be very kind and generous.

**[0:16:35] Sean Callagy:** People like Magic Johnson was to Darren, like Laird was to people all over that beach today and p- neighbor walking down the street, you know, so don't? I invite you to not limit your thinking that because somebody's achieved a certain level of identity or relationship capital, or monetary capital, or skill set that they, um, will not potentially be an open-hearted, good person. Don't take advantage of that, right? Seek to add value to what we say, but a conversation can be opened far more often than you might think.

**[0:17:16] Sean Callagy:** So thank you Laird, well, cause it's easy, for

**[0:17:19] Laird Hamilton:** I think, to be to let judgment get in the way, right? We, we, we just think, oh, that they're like that, so this is how it is. I think, you know, I feel like you always wanna give somebody a an opportunity now that they prove you right, that what you think is right, then, you know, cool, but maybe they'll prove you wrong soon. So

**[0:17:39] Sean Callagy:** No, thank you. And so can I ask this? Um, as you were developing and surfing, I guess two-part question is like, when do you first begin to see yourself, um, separating in skill? And how does earning an income, uh, earning a living, like, at what stage does that sort of move into the equation? I know when we were, you know, joking, you know, teasing. I know modeling is there, surfing is there, like, what's the evolution of that surf separation?

**[0:18:12] Sean Callagy:** And how Laird Hamilton begins to earn a living?

**[0:18:16] Laird Hamilton:** well, uh, first of all, because my route was so unorthodox, you know, I was not participating in contests, uh, because I watched my stepdad's surfing contest. I watched the I watched the judgment and the way the system was run. I didn't wanna subject my performance to to that criteria, which made it m more difficult to, um, earn a living. And, you know, I always, I, I tell my daughters, I go find your special purpose, you know, find the thing that that that really brings you a passion.

**[0:18:51] Laird Hamilton:** I go you. If you're fortunate enough to get to do that as your as your job, shame on you, but, you know, but or you'll subsidize it. And so in a way, I the a lot of the things I was doing initially was to just subsidize. I would do anything to subsidize my ability to keep to keep, uh, pursuing my goal. And and I believed in my heart that if I could just be the best I could be, that that would take care of, you know, the monetary side of things.

**[0:19:23] Laird Hamilton:** That if I that that would be, uh, an after effect. I just I believe in ideas, and I think that, uh, that that the result, that the that the financial rewards only only confirm the idea how big it is. You know, it's like, just Steve Jobs idea around a phone, you know, that's his idea, and the result is is is it is what he thought it was. So it's really idea based. And then and then, uh, and then I was fortunate, as I went, I had I got, you know, I got sponsors, I got.

**[0:19:59] Laird Hamilton:** I mean, because the when you looked at what I was doing, it was like, well, people pay you because you get exposure, right? And so in a way, like, if you get exposure, people will pay you. And so for me, I, it was like, okay, well, if I can, if I can, you know, be the best I can be and do and do and let and let the chips fall where where they may. And I would have subsidized it.

**[0:20:20] Laird Hamilton:** I, I know how to run an excavator, I can, I can work, I'm not scared of working, and I, I do work and have worked and will work. And so I was never afraid of it, wasn't trying to avoid it. It was just that I was able to turn that into, uh, a business. I was able to turn my my art, cause technically it's my art, it's my self-expression. Riding giant waves is just I'm expressing who I am and and, uh, what's in me?

**[0:20:47] Laird Hamilton:** And so in a way that through that true pursuit of expression, it it's allowed, you know it, it turned into, it turned into a business, it, and, you know, and. And that began to change some of the ways I looked about it as well, because I then I was having to adjust what I was doing, um, for that, and took some of the some of the soul out of it, uh. But from that came a a lot of other other, uh, opportunities.

**[0:21:17] Laird Hamilton:** And so, you know, I modeled at some point for a little while, just just because that was easy money. They go, Yeah, go stand there, take a picture, and then and then, you know, you get some money and go surf for, you know, another year.

**[0:21:28] Sean Callagy:** So listen, so for everybody, this is really the point of the entire immersion is just go all, all go model and get pictures taken yourself, and then you can do whatever you want. So you go to yes, if you're up for that, say yes, perfect, okay, um, so

**[0:21:47] Laird Hamilton:** Maybe not, maybe not what you're thinking, but

**[0:21:50] Sean Callagy:** all right, so where? So, but it if I could, what? So you're surfing right, and this is developing, and your mom's like, Oh my god, he made it to like eight, and then he made it to eleven. Yay, like, Oh my god, he turned fourteen. That's incredible. Um, how was the concept? Cause, uh, i if you you're not clear, there's, um, and I don't, I don't wanna. There's a famous surfer, cause I I don't wanna say anything that Laird says.

**[0:22:17] Sean Callagy:** I mean private and say it publicly. But a famous surfer who is very competition-based and, uh, very successful, you know, surfing on much smaller waves. Then came to, like, Laird's backyard and was like, Yeah, peace out, no thanks, right? So there's a there's a world of surfing that is on a much, uh, smaller wave size, where you do cool things on waves and they're incredibly masterful, talented people. And then this other world evolved and developed that Laird pioneered of surfing on bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger waves.

**[0:22:52] Sean Callagy:** So if you don't mind taking us through how that was sort of evolving, and and prior to you coming along, like, how? And there's many different ways to measure wave size, like we've been through this. This is a very, uh, triggering dynamic for Laird, right? Of, like, what a wave size is, and that's not the measure of a wave. There could be big waves that are easier and smaller waves that are much harder. But um, what I'm looking to enter into this space of is where you started to break from the one context, which is surf smaller, you know, but good size competition surf.

**[0:23:27] Sean Callagy:** based. It's because Yeah,

**[0:23:28] Laird Hamilton:** it was more tangible, so they had surf competitions. And they they, you know, it's like gymnastics, you know, you, you bring the American gymnast to Russia and you're confused why they're losing because you have Russian judges. And so, I mean, I went, I experienced that, and and the industry was really built built around that because it was more its framework. We can have it on Sunday at one o'clock at down here at the Jersey Beach, and so everybody shows up.

**[0:23:54] Laird Hamilton:** But big waves, you have to be, you have to wait, and could be months. It could, I mean, it's they come during a certain period. But I always felt, because as a young man, surfing was evolving, and the competition aspect was growing. And so there was two groups. There was, like, what we call free surfing, which were the people that were just surfing, and then there was, like, the competition. And so I watched that and I was like, I felt like, if if I can surf the biggest waves in the world, the best, then it.

**[0:24:25] Laird Hamilton:** I don't care what you're doing, that I don't. It doesn't matter to me, like, I don't care if you're the world champ. That doesn't mean anything to me. Because I feel like, if you surf the biggest, the best, then that would, in my, in my thinking, would mean you're the best, like, like, like, you'd be the best at that point, because that's the pinnacle, right? And so just because of the danger and the and the skill and all the and the just everything about it, that it takes to do it.

**[0:24:51] Laird Hamilton:** Uh,

**[0:24:51] Sean Callagy:** okay, so I'm sorry. Can I? So, at what age did that come into your mind for the first time? That I am going to surf bigger waves and bigger waves, and even bigger waves, and bigger than that waves? Like, what was, how old were you, and what was some of the stages of well, the that journey for?

**[0:25:11] Laird Hamilton:** the first, you know, I always talk about tribal test, you know, like, when do you put a male into some tribal test? As a as a, you know, as into manhood and puberty or whatever? Like, you get thirteen, fourteen, you start getting stronger, you're like, Hey, I'm gonna go out and and push myself, uh, into bigger surf. I was, uh, younger. You're just not physically strong enough to really be able to deal with it. And and then you're competing with men at that point.

**[0:25:39] Laird Hamilton:** And so it started then. I think I I was always attracted to it, and I was building up as I went. It wasn't just a leap of I surfed small waves and then I surfed giant waves, and then, but it was. But I did have the opportunity when I was very young that there were a few a few men, um, that wou would just they wouldn't. You wouldn't even see them unless the surf was was giant, which when I say giant, I mean, like, okay, fifty-foot faces, right?

**[0:26:04] Laird Hamilton:** You? So you wouldn't see these guys. All of a sudden, they'd come out and then everybody else that was surfing all the time, that was con. That were considered the best surfers, well, they were nowhere to be found. Uh, and so I was like, uh, that's the group I'm gonna emulate. That's the well, those are the guys that I that I'm like, that's, those are the guys for me. And so I had that early, I had that as a young, I and I.

**[0:26:24] Laird Hamilton:** I think I was pretty obnoxious as a young man, cause probably cause I was scared. And, uh, which, you know, usually, it's usually when you're scared, you're obnoxious, but, uh, so so I was obnoxious and I'm gonna be the best and blah, blah, blah. I was pretty mouthy, and the adults would always say, Hey, Laird, just shut up, um, be quiet, stop it. And, uh,

**[0:26:45] Sean Callagy:** Do you think I lo- do you think that I like him even more now? So

**[0:26:50] Laird Hamilton:** so, so so then it, so then, uh, so then it starts at that age. And then I start pushing it right. I'm getting bigger, stronger, better at doing it, and I'm getting myself to a point where I start getting to the ceiling, right? I get to the ceiling. I'm in my early twenties, um, and I'm, you know, like in most sports, you know, you're in your early twenties, and you're, you're, uh, you know, you're at the I'm at the level, I'm at the h- top of performance in in my in my genre and big wave riding.

**[0:27:19] Laird Hamilton:** And so I'm, I'm just, I'm pushing that. And then, uh, and then there gets a point where there's a ceiling, right? There's a ceiling where where th- the waves on certain days are too big, uh, or too stormy to for us to go and and and ride them. And and I'm not satisfied with that. And so, and at the same time, we're we're. We're doing a bunch of other disciplines, we're windsurfing, we're doing all this crazy, crazy stuff and getting on.

**[0:27:50] Laird Hamilton:** We're going out to sea on windsurfers and getting on giant swells. And so I kinda have an epiphany like, there's another way, uh, a and I've had a few of these, uh, over the over the years, and I have a epiphany that I'm gonna be able to that. We we develop a technique to be towed on and and and so we implement that right away. And so can I I,

**[0:28:13] Sean Callagy:** ask this before you said we like so before?

**[0:28:16] Laird Hamilton:** the friends that I could suck out with me, usually I could probably convince somebody. I mean, normally, parents would always say, you can't play with Laird because I w- like, you're not allowed to play with Laird. Because they usually come home with stitches or something would happen, cause it would be like, you know, like, Hey, Laird said to, and then they'd be hurt, you know? So parents are like, Hey, you can't play with Laird. It was always like, I think for a parent, it was like high anxiety if your child was with Laird.

**[0:28:43] Laird Hamilton:** Because somewhere in there, something, it's either a bike off a giant, uh, just something bad, it's always bad.

**[0:28:50] Sean Callagy:** But here's here's the fun part, right? This is, and this is what being a g-hec we call it growth-driven, heart-centered, integrous, committed to mastery is about. I seek this out because I am that person with all the people I know is the person. It's like, don't go in the water with Sean, don't go on the ski mount with Sean. But then what I find is where I can go back to being the gecko to Godzilla, and that's what you're all doing here, and it's so exciting.

**[0:29:25] Sean Callagy:** I love meeting people who are exponentially better than me at things I love. So this is, like, complete insanity for me today. And again, thank you so much because I'm that guy that it's like, Well, be careful, don't hang out with that guy. If you heard from people at some point, don't go listen to Sean, don't go hang out with Sean and say, yes, right. So thank you, and it makes me even wanna be more like that now, cause I have a la large gap to close, cause I'm a gecko and that's Godzilla.

**[0:29:59] Sean Callagy:** So There's always a

**[0:30:00] Laird Hamilton:** a Godzilla, and we're always a gecko, so that's important, too.

**[0:30:04] Sean Callagy:** perfect, thank you. And so so as you are, and I so were was. Had anybody, to your knowledge, um, been going into waves? Tow surfing, um, on a jet ski? Or was like your crew with a first? There was a couple of other pods, like, how did, how did, when did that happen? And like, what's that backstory?

**[0:30:31] Laird Hamilton:** Well, it, I mean, it started before jet skis, so there wasn't even jet skis. And I had I had. One of my first jobs was, um, driving like those zodiacs that the Navy seals have, and I grew up dr- driving those in, kind of in and out of the surf and on through waves. So I knew how to drive, and I had another friend that had the same experience. So we started with, uh, with inflatables originally, uh, and it happened.

**[0:30:53] Laird Hamilton:** The the original thing happened in the summer, the surf was small, we were just playing around. I always say, great ideas come out of boredom.

**[0:31:00] Sean Callagy:** So I guess I so do you like, uh, do you relate to yourself? And I? And he's very humble, so I think he doesn't like these questions, but I I'm just fascinated as the inventor of tow surfing. Let's hear for that. Yes, that is amazing, and I and I related to you that way. But sometimes, you know, people can be falsely modest and no, not be like that. That's that that is unbelievable, yes, thank you, that is seriously unbelie- what?

**[0:31:32] Sean Callagy:** And

**[0:31:32] Laird Hamilton:** thank you. that, I I can take credit for a couple other things if you want.

**[0:31:35] Sean Callagy:** yeah, I want no, seriously,

**[0:31:35] Laird Hamilton:** Yeah, you want me to stand up paddling, please, don't like stand up paddling.

**[0:31:39] Sean Callagy:** stand. What about stand up paddling?

**[0:31:41] Laird Hamilton:** I'm the first guy to do stand up paddling.

**[0:31:43] Sean Callagy:** Let's hear for that.

**[0:31:44] Laird Hamilton:** I did, I did, I did, I did. I did stand up paddling for eight years before anybody ever did it, Holy shit, and I'd never seen it done before. And I w- And I saw somebody in the Middle East with a turban on paddling, and I went, Wow, I came all the way from my my driveway all the way to the Middle East.

**[0:32:03] Sean Callagy:** that's unbeliev- if you knew that about Laird Hamilton before today, say yes, I did. I didn't know that. That's crazy,

**[0:32:11] Laird Hamilton:** yeah, and I, and and I, if and I I, if and I did you wanna,

**[0:32:13] Sean Callagy:** my homework.

**[0:32:13] Laird Hamilton:** if you wanna go to another one, I could say credit for foiling, too. wow, is We were the first Fran Fernando Valencia one, we were

**[0:32:20] Sean Callagy:** in there?

**[0:32:20] Laird Hamilton:** the first one to foil.

**[0:32:23] Sean Callagy:** Yeah, so I took Fernando to Corrado Beach, um, and the and in Puerto Rico. Oh, he, well, he came to. I should've said took him, and he started foiling. So I was step off surfing, and Fernando was foiling, so I haven't foiled. He has, so, uh, Laird is convinced that, uh, foiling is my future. Fernando, Yes, yeah,

**[0:32:46] Laird Hamilton:** So, uh, so I I'm so in a in a way, you know, I think, uh, you got foiling stand up. I mean, I was involved on the early stages of kiting. Not, I wouldn't say, cause I wasn't the first g- one to do kiting, but we were involved in that. So I've been involved kind of in some in in that process. And and I and I do believe there's a formula for that, that a what, kind of system.

**[0:33:07] Laird Hamilton:** a what, a Yeah, what? Got yeah,

**[0:33:10] Sean Callagy:** you?

**[0:33:10] Laird Hamilton:** so there's I. There's a formula of for creativity, right? There's a certain thing. First, you have to have the idea, right? And but to truly have the idea, you have to the idea that you have. You have to be able to see what the idea will actually result in. You have to see the end first. You have to see if I do this and this happens, I can do that. Like, cause you don't, cause an idea without a destination is is a is a is a is a misled idea.

**[0:33:40] Laird Hamilton:** So I think seeing, uh, seeing the picture, having the light go off and go, Hey, listen, if I get pulled on, I can let go and ride this giant wave, then you implement it. But you have to see the end, the end thing, and then you have to go through the arduous process of not being discouraged, right by the failure. Because you're gonna build prototypes, they're not gonna work, you're gonna build another prototype. It might take six months breaks, doesn't work, one works, doesn't work that well.

**[0:34:03] Laird Hamilton:** Like, you just have all this, people will discourage you, you know? There was a great, uh, woman entrepreneur I heard that she's, um, they asked her, Well, what would you do if you had a really good idea? And she goes, Well, I just wouldn't tell anybody for a year. And I'm like, w- w- and and we asked why? and she goes, Well, because they'll discourage you. And so you realize that people love to discourage you because they don't take advantage of their ideas, so they have ideas and they're, they're when you have one and you're, uh, pursuing it, they don't wanna, ha- they don't, they're not pursuing theirs.

**[0:34:33] Laird Hamilton:** So then what's their excuse? So they're like, Hey, don't pursue yours too, and that'll make me feel better. So it's a it's a weird little mental game that people play. So, but I, I'm fortunate in that I'm undiscouragable. Like, you can't, like, I don't care. I mean, I've had people tell me how it sucked, and it wasn't real. I mean, and and the truth is that Towing was really not respected. People were were kind of slandering it for a good solid eight to ten years.

**[0:34:58] Laird Hamilton:** And it wasn't until we rode a wave, that wave in Tahiti. That's why it was monumental, that it really gained the respect that that it deserved. Cause we were saying, Hey, we're doing some miraculous stuff, and they just kinda kept pushing it off, like, that's not surfing, you're not paddling, blah blah. But we're like, Hey, we're, we're performing and riding on bigger waves than have ever been ridden. Is that not good enough for you?

**[0:35:20] Laird Hamilton:** And and you still have the consequences, you still have to ride the wave, you have the consequences of crashing on the wave, you know, you still have all the things, right? And it's Like bigger even worse now, and con- like bigger bigger, yeah, but bigger consequences.

**[0:35:30] Sean Callagy:** consequences?

**[0:35:30] Laird Hamilton:** So, um, so I think that was a big piece of it.

**[0:35:33] Sean Callagy:** Team, could we do? We have that picture, uh, the picture, not the video of Laird up, yes, no, yeah, make the sound of that. And is that is that the Tahiti? Yeah, and could so, cause I have the words I would say, but I wanna be really precise. How have people described that ride?

**[0:36:05] Laird Hamilton:** well, that was on the cover of Surfer magazine, and the caption was Holy shit. So that's I mean, I, I, you know, I cried after after that, that session. I had tears in my eyes just because it had been, and that was when I was thirty-five. So that came

**[0:36:25] Sean Callagy:** let's hear for that. along, that came along No one's here for after, that. And how? And and didn't people say certain things like, and I and I know that again, Laird thinks people are imprecise and say inaccurate things. But weren't there versions of that? That was the hardest, unridable, most unridable,

**[0:36:48] Laird Hamilton:** yeah, unridable. unridable Well, cause it was unridable before that w- that you, wave was unridable. before you, before Yes, yes, you, yeah, yes. And then, I mean, I describe it a little bit like the four-minute mile. After that, once they understood what was possible, it changed the whole thinking. It's like, if you know about the four-minute mile, how the first guy that broke it, once he broke it, then the next year, twenty-seven people break, break it.

**[0:37:10] Laird Hamilton:** Because it becomes in our consciousness, but it's this breaking, you know, my friend has this saying, some m someone must go first to lead the way, right? And so there's, and so there is something to that. Once you see what's possible, then you break that barrier of impossibility, because it it's what do they say? It's all mental, right? All is mental, so I. We create these barriers that we can't get past. Oh, you can't do that, that can't happen.

**[0:37:36] Laird Hamilton:** And and I think that, uh, once you see it happen, then you go, Oh, no, that can happen, and then that changes the mentality.

**[0:37:43] Sean Callagy:** yeah. And so I was chatting with Laird, um, this morning, which was just, uh, such a gift, and I was discussing my journey in surfing. And and can I ask an, uh, uh, an honest question? Um, how? When you heard, cause Laird had no idea who I was, right? Um, when you heard, like, blind surf water, and and he does not falsely compliment, nor am I looking for a false compliment at all. Zero. I'm just really curious, like, I'm relating to him now as like coach.

**[0:38:16] Sean Callagy:** Um, what were you thinking? I might look at? I, we didn't see s uh, bot board surfing, we did some body surfing today. How? What were you thinking? I might look like in the water once? We're we're going in versus what it was for my coaching, um, you know, from today's experience.

**[0:38:36] Laird Hamilton:** Well, I mean, the first thing I was thinking is, uh, what it's like to be blind. So I was like, did you see? And you know what things look like, or did you never see and not know what they look like? And then just the dynamics of surfing and the can you feel, are you feeling it? Uh, cause you can feel it, for sure, you know, surfing has a unique thing that you can sense what's happening.

**[0:39:00] Laird Hamilton:** You know, when it's gonna break on top of your head, you just do. You. I don't care if your eyes are closed, you can't see or not, you just know this thing's gonna break on top of my head right now. And so I just ran through all those, those thoughts in in my head, and and, uh, and so it's, uh, I mean, it's amazing, you're amazing, congratulations no, thank you, for your. And you know, it's a burden and a blessing, as they say, yeah.

**[0:39:27] Laird Hamilton:** And I think all how, how of it is

**[0:39:28] Sean Callagy:** about? So we? We also discussed, uh, the possibility, cause I got, um, at one point in time, when I first heard of Laird Hamilton, and I'd heard of him before this. But I really had a deeper understanding from this incredible book that was written called The Wave, which was about waves, but very much focused on Laird Hamilton, other outlying stories. But he's the core of the book, it's incredible. And, um, I was like, Wow, that really stinks that I'm blind, and it really stinks that I didn't surf earlier in life.

**[0:40:02] Sean Callagy:** I'll never be able to do something like that. And something I th- I remembered as I was in the shower getting ready to come here. Um, when I was going through, I was divorced twice, um, and in my second divorce, I remember thinking, like, sometimes you go through a moment like you wanna do something. Like, I'm gonna surf an effing big wave, like, I'm gonna do that right. And this was back, um, ten years ago, and shortly thereafter, I'm like, I'm blind.

**[0:40:36] Sean Callagy:** Like, I basically just started surfing, sort of, right? There's no way that's ever gonna happen. And a short time ago, I read about, um, this person who had surfed a giant wave who was blind. And Laird's like, Oh yeah, that's blah, blah, blah. I trained him, so, um, and now I'm I. And I asked Laird, you know, and I, I see him as a very authentic person. Um, hey, what are your thoughts? He's like, Uh, my thoughts are that incrementally, we have exactly what you would need to do that.

**[0:41:17] Sean Callagy:** So I am saying to the unblinded ecosystem to, um, you know, and here in group influence LBI and the podcast. That I am 100% committing to take that to the highest level, um, and see if I could get up on a giant wave. And I'm gonna pursue that, uh, through the ecosystem of Laird Hamilton. So, and I'm very, very grateful for that, and so that's my half. well. So my Like,

**[0:41:45] Laird Hamilton:** mom used to say, you know, the way God punishes you is he give you what you ask for. So we can definitely accommodate you and we'll bring you back in one piece. thank you. So Okay, so

**[0:42:00] Sean Callagy:** do so. Do you think we have a shot? What, what? What is your perspective? And can I ask this? What we talked about in the house and then we went in the ocean. Uh, did my stock fall, rise, or stay the same on the possibility of that accomplishment?

**[0:42:16] Laird Hamilton:** oh no, you, you're, you're. We're gonna, we can give you what you want, no problem.

**[0:42:23] Sean Callagy:** Wow, now you heard it,

**[0:42:24] Laird Hamilton:** You can, you can, you'll, you'll. We can guide you into, uh, you know, a l- A. A large enough wave that you'll be more than satisfied.

**[0:42:40] Sean Callagy:** no maniacal cackling Bella. Are we gonna put Bella on a giant wave, too? Yeah,

**[0:42:52] Laird Hamilton:** Yeah, not well, I I'll tell you a story. So once please. at one point we weren't. In the beginning, we didn't wear flotation devices. Now, all big wave riding, everybody's wearing flotation, right? And that was a really big breakthrough. Uh, in the beginning, we we'd never. We thought it was a liability to have flotation. And and, uh, and I have a friend who who's surfing with, uh, with us, and, um, his wife said, Hey, you have to wear flotation.

**[0:43:18] Laird Hamilton:** And we were like, Oh, you gotta wear flotation. He goes, Yeah, well, she said. She can't collect a life insurance unless she has the body, and she was dead serious. So, and by the way, so we took him. He surfed and he popped right up and we were like, amazing. So then after that, we started implementing flotation, and now, uh, flotation is is prevalent in all. They, I mean, now they have pull cords to create air, and and they're wearing flotation.

**[0:43:46] Laird Hamilton:** So, um, which is, which has, you know, some of these things in create, uh, in, you know, they induce greater courage, you know, like it makes people feel a little more invincible. But, uh, but you'll definitely have flotation. Let's just be clear.

**[0:44:02] Sean Callagy:** All right, perfect. So what's what's the longest you've ever been held down under a wave? Or under the

**[0:44:09] Laird Hamilton:** I mean, normally, you, you normally when the surf's big, you d if you're held down two waves, that's a problem, right? So I, I've been held down two waves one time, and it was, uh, it was foiling, and in the early days of foiling, we were doing, we were riding, foiling in giant surf, and we were booted to the board, so we were connected to the to the board and the stuff, the it was all metal.

**[0:44:32] Laird Hamilton:** It w- they were pretty heavy, and so I got held down for two waves. But you know, that's not, I mean, the the closest. I've had a lot of situations in my life, you know, like, like, I've been lost at sea. I got held under a waterfall one time on a rock, uh, in the bottom of a giant waterfall, and, uh, and held down for a l- a long time. Um, so there's been a lot, there's a long, it's, you know, now now you understand kind of how my mother felt, right?

**[0:45:02] Laird Hamilton:** So you're like, So I, I have had many, you know, many situations where I shouldn't be here. Um,

**[0:45:11] Sean Callagy:** how? How long do you think you were under the water in that?

**[0:45:14] Laird Hamilton:** yeah, you know, I mean, seconds seem like minutes, you know, and minutes seem like hours. I mean, I, I, I probably wasn't under the water more than, you know, a minute and something, maybe or something. Cause if you, but the thing is is when you have a elevated heart rate, it's a whole nother animal, you know? And most of the training that we do is is is based on elevated heart rate. So I told somebody goes, Oh, I can hold my breath for five minutes, and I go, okay.

**[0:45:43] Laird Hamilton:** So what we're gonna do is I'm gonna get this dog right here to chase you, and you're gonna run down that block. And when you finally get to the end, then you're gonna hold your breath, and let's see how long you can hold your breath. And and you know what, twenty seconds might as well be five minutes. So when you have a hello, so we're dealing mostly with that. I think more importantly than holding your breath, well, is our ability to get to the surface, right?

**[0:46:06] Laird Hamilton:** And also be calm in the turbulence. Like when it has you, don't fight against it, and that's, I think, those are the skills that you develop growing up, you know, playing in the shore break, you know, you have the wave, it's got you, you don't, you don't, you don't fight the wave when it has you. I told somebody it's like wrestling a giant guy. If you have a guy that and has you pinned, that's not the time, but when you feel him let up, then you make a move.

**[0:46:28] Laird Hamilton:** And so, uh, in the ocean's the same way. When it has you pinned, you don't, you don't resist because you're just gonna use air up. And so I I think we pride ourselves more on that skill about, you know, our eyes are always closed underwater, we never open our eyes, so we're we're blind. We can f- we feel where the surface is. We know, you know, you know how to, you know how to. When the wave has you, you know how to relax, then you know how to.

**[0:46:51] Laird Hamilton:** When it's and make a move, and you try always to get up before the next wave lands on you. And like I said, I've in my in my life, I've only had one two wave hold down. I mean, and but I'm saying, when the surf's big, you have a giant interval like today, I could dive under and you could probably have ten waves go by, and but the waves are very close together. As the waves get bigger and bigger, they get further apart.

**[0:47:11] Laird Hamilton:** So if you're doing a two wave hold down, you're gonna be down for more than a minute. And, uh, with an elevated heart rate, that's a problem. Like, that's that's where people are drowning, like, you're, you're, you're, you're drowning. If you're not caught on a coral head with your leash. Or, I mean, just the, you know, hit by the hit the bottom. I mean, there's, you know, you just choose the ways, there's a lot of, you know, the the week, the the month before.

**[0:47:35] Laird Hamilton:** I rode that wave in Tahiti, a guy hit the reef and and and, uh, tore half his head off and then eventually died in the hospital. But the, I mean, so it's like, okay, impact, hit by the equipment, held underwater. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, you know, it's like, choose the ways you wanna get it. There's there's plenty.

**[0:47:55] Sean Callagy:** Team, do we have, uh, a video of Laird ready? Okay, let's hit it.

**[0:48:01] Laird Hamilton:** I'm not even seeing.

**[0:48:07] Sean Callagy:** AG, give me some, uh, audio description of what we're seeing.

**[0:48:16] Laird Hamilton:** Oh, is this? th- this is my oh, this is, you know what, this is. This is, uh, point break two. I get blown into the sky. This is, this is a bad wipeout. Yeah, I get, uh, see how I get shot into the air. Yeah, I got, I got hurt on that. Yeah, they were filming, uh, point break. I don't know if anybody's seen point break.

**[0:48:44] Sean Callagy:** via conde, if you see a point break, give it up

**[0:48:46] Laird Hamilton:** Yeah, so they were filming point break and the scene that they're doing. And I'm not even in it, I'm just surfing. And so I did the death scene accidentally, so I didn't die. But this is where the guy goes out to go die, right? He goes out to ride the big wave and at the end die.

**[0:49:03] Sean Callagy:** of at the end of point break. When Patrick Swayze gets let go, and he said, via conde, some paddles out. This is what this is

**[0:49:09] Laird Hamilton:** this is the new point break, that version in the new one at Jaws. Because the first one was at Waimea Bay. Yeah, it was at Waimea Bay, and was Derek Donor, my a friend of mine, that did that original crash. And that wave is more than double the height of the one that, you know, Patrick Swayze supposedly dies on. I got, I got, I got pounded pretty bad on that wave right there. And I and I and I was, I deserved it, I was misbehaving, I did, that was true.

**[0:49:36] Laird Hamilton:** It's I. I was being a punk, and River so

**[0:49:39] Sean Callagy:** Adam, what'd you say? River Okay, what do you got, AG? Tell me, Go down

**[0:49:44] Laird Hamilton:** this is to you.

**[0:49:44] Speaker 6:** for eighteen months.

**[0:49:47] Laird Hamilton:** At one point, I'm on the wave and I'm having a little talk between the halo and the horns, and it's, Hey, you should jump off. Well, if I jump off, I won't make it, you know, but you better jump off and don't jump off, and, you know, back and forth. And finally, I thought, Well, if if I jump off, I'm not gonna make it, so I'm just gonna try to stay on. And if I get knocked off, well, I got nothing I can do about that.

**[0:50:14] Sean Callagy:** make the noise of what you're feeling. Wow, let's hear for that.

**[0:50:30] Laird Hamilton:** No, thank you.

**[0:50:33] Sean Callagy:** So all right, so I'm re I'm listening, right? I say, read the audiobook, listening to the book, The Wave. And the two things that I've ever, I'll, I'll go three that I've ever experienced that I thought were the craziest, um, are as follows, um, and no particular order. Um, I'll go a, um, was David Goggins running an ultramarathon on no training and having no idea of how to hydrate? So he's drinking protein drinks. And at the end of it, after a hundred-mile race, he was, um, like, basically bile was coming out of him, and he was on the verge of death.

**[0:51:24] Sean Callagy:** Like, that's a one, uh, another was the the guy that recently climbed the building on New Year's, Yeah, Alex, and um, made it to the top, like, I'll go, that's another. And then this with Laird Hamilton in the book The Wave, so I'm loving the book, it's unbelievable. And and I'm gonna let Laird, you know, fill in blanks, um, but there in Hawaii, it's not normally a place that has, um, huge waves. Um, and this day they hear it's gonna be good, or they think it might be good.

**[0:52:04] Sean Callagy:** They go out and it just starts getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, and I think some version of it might've been as big as anything that Laird had ever seen. So they go out and one of, um, his team, um, I think his name's Brett Lickle. They're taking turns and they're in these absolutely enormous waves, and they, um, at some point get thrown off, um, the ski, and they had very, very sharp fins to surf these incredibly giant waves.

**[0:52:40] Sean Callagy:** And this John Brett Lickle gets cut, like from the back of his knee, you know, all the way down to his foot, and he is down to the bone, and he's bleeding to death in the ocean. And they're, I don't know, half a mile mile plus offshore. And Laird, again, tightening up my, you know, misstatements, and the gentleman Brett says, like, tourniquet, like he needs it. So Laird gets like naked in the ocean and, like, takes off his clothes and makes a tourniquet.

**[0:53:15] Sean Callagy:** And then, but they're, uh, half a mile mile out in the ocean, and the ski is like half a mile away in these gigantic, unbelievable waves. And this friend, team member, is bleeding to death. And this is also an area where, um, there's some frequent visitor, like fifteen-foot tiger shark. So the guy Brett's, as he's telling his version of the story, is thinking like, the big guy, that's the fifteen-foot tiger shark, is gonna eat him. So Laird goes swimming off against the current to the jet ski that's half a mile away against the current with his friend's life at stake.

**[0:54:01] Sean Callagy:** He gets there, and, you know, the the way you turn the jet ski on is with his friend. So he has to, like James Bond meets MacGyver, go into the jet ski, wave runner, and, uh, like, hotwire it to turn it on, which he does, like, he knows how to do that. And like, like, like, yeah, basically hijacks the system and gets this thing going, turns around, gets the the friend, ride back in a shore emergency vehicles.

**[0:54:35] Sean Callagy:** People are freaking out on the shore, the whole deal. And, um, his friend goes off to the hospital, you know, in a very life-threatening situation. And the other, oh, I'm sorry, and I missed the fact before he goes swims off a half a mile in the fall. Um, Laird got a giant, uh, like baseball-size hematoma on his leg, so his leg was massively swollen compared to his other leg. And he sustained, uh, you know, a real injury, right himself.

**[0:55:05] Sean Callagy:** So they're on the beach, you know, they're colleagues. They're like, Oh my god, this is the craziest thing. And as the author writes, it said, Laird's eyes are like double size, and he's like some version of we're going back out. And they're like, that's crazy. He's like, we're going back out, right? And off he goes back out and ends up surfing on these giant, ridiculous waves like insanity. So how accurate, not accurate, what am I misstating?

**[0:55:35] Sean Callagy:** And please, now Well, I will give give the say Brett wasn't picture.

**[0:55:38] Laird Hamilton:** riding any waves. I I I was the Guinea pig, Guinea pig. No, uh, no accurate. A. a accurate. The uh, I mean, first of all, that that day was, uh, you know, unforecasted, and it was, uh, it was. I mean, I I told somebody a story. I go like, if you, if if Tyrannosaurus Rex was running down the road, right? And and something happened. I mean, this might be the only time you see him, like you might, you might never see him again.

**[0:56:15] Laird Hamilton:** And so, in a way, those waves repr- represented that. Once Brett was in the in the ambulance, and I was naked when I crash-landed on the shore, and there was a giant parking lot full of people. And I did like a cartwheel off the front of the ski on the onto the beach, like laying in front of everybody naked. And then some local guy ran up with some shorts and threw him to me, and you know, I mean, and I had a radio, I was calling the ambulance.

**[0:56:40] Laird Hamilton:** I mean, there was a lot of details and and, uh, and I told somebody, Oh, listen, if you were naked and you were swimming a mile offshore in an area that you knew that there were some big sharks, you would be an incredible swimmer. Like, your swimming would be, you would be, you would be a Olympian, you know? So I was, I was Olympic. I was like, I'm Olympic, I'm getting to the machine. Uh, you know, they're just all the things that led up to that.

**[0:57:08] Laird Hamilton:** Uh, you know, and then, of course, Brett, my my concern was to get Brett, and once Brett was in the ambulance, then I knew, okay, he's in the ambulance, you know, he, he can be, he's good. And then, and then I'm like, back to the back to Tyrannosaurus, he's there, and, uh, I gotta go out there, cause I don't know when it's gonna. I mean, and I've never seen another day like that, and never saw a day like that before.

**[0:57:30] Laird Hamilton:** And so, in a way, I didn't want to let that opportunity go by. I think that I would have regretted that the rest of my life, and I don't. And it actually helped, uh, transition me into foiling, because I I rode. I mean, part of the reason why Brett and I got run over was because I couldn't descend down the wave, so I he towed me on to. I mean, if you want feet, we there were, it was eighty to a hundred feet.

**[0:57:56] Laird Hamilton:** I know it was, if it was an inch, just cause we counted how long the waves would take. The waves were taking four to five seconds for the lip to fall, so it was one one thousand, two, one thousand, three, one thousand, four, one thousand, five before they hit. We were counting the, uh, we were counting how long it was taking the lips to fall. And and, uh, and so I wasn't able to descend, and I had to kind of dive

**[0:58:20] Sean Callagy:** Can I just like, so what? What Laird is saying is these were eighty to one hundred foot base waves, and they were so powerful, so massive that you couldn't surf down them. Cause the speed and water will, yeah,

**[0:58:41] Laird Hamilton:** the f, the the surface tension, the friction of the board, the f, you know, it's like if you took a wide board and you towed it really fast behind a boat. It would hit a certain speed where it just would. S. It wouldn't go any, it would get stuck, and so that's what we experienced, which which is the is actually what led us into the pursuit of foiling. That we that I knew that there was like, what towing was for paddling, foiling is for towing.

**[0:59:10] Laird Hamilton:** So we you guys hit the get that. I'm sorry, cap, so

**[0:59:12] Sean Callagy:** I just want to make sure that lands, like, do you guys get that? So

**[0:59:14] Laird Hamilton:** so we hit a cap, we hit a we hit a ceiling. First, we hit a ceiling in paddling, then we created towing, then we hit a ceiling in towing, then we created foiling. So foiling really came out of the desire for the continued pursuit of trying to ride the biggest waves. And then, and so that's, and then at that point, I kind of put my toe boards away and focused all my attention on into foiling. Because I I, I knew that that was that if it is actually a hundred feet or bigger, that you won't be able to ride a conventional surfboard, it won't work.

**[0:59:47] Laird Hamilton:** And so that that's where the that's where the energy and the focus came from to pursue foiling.

**[0:59:53] Sean Callagy:** if if you think that Laird is up to the most extreme things physically, you've ever heard of, say, yes, all right, so

**[1:00:05] Laird Hamilton:** Small brain.

**[1:00:07] Sean Callagy:** it could, and and I I have like a thousand questions. I know we're getting towards the end. Um, can you share what you said in the house about surfers and their connectivity versus national origin? Like, I I love that, that was Yeah, well, amazing,

**[1:00:25] Laird Hamilton:** we were talking, but we just learned recently that the surf surfers microbiome actually are v- v- very closely tied to water mammals. And that surfers from different places in the world are more similar than the people are from their own culture. So my microbiome is c- more connected to a Japanese surfer's microbiome and an African surfer's microbiome and a French, and then than they are to their own culture. And so it's it's the oceans, our relationship with the water that affects our microbiome, and, uh, and gives us that kind of that that connection, and it may contribute to our kind of psychotic pursuit.

**[1:01:09] Laird Hamilton:** Kinda like people do for candy bars, you know?

**[1:01:17] Sean Callagy:** I love it.

**[1:01:19] Laird Hamilton:** And and amongst other things, I mean, we get so many, we absorb so many things through the ocean we have, you know,

**[1:01:25] Sean Callagy:** yeah, that that reference, uh, was when Bella was swimming out to paddle, that right bell that we're talking about to the sandbar. Uh, that first time. It's like, No, I'm fine, no, I'm fine as they are. And I think she was in pursuit of something, uh, perhaps, uh, that was related to the water, but not the water itself. Yes, so thank you very much. Um, but

**[1:01:49] Laird Hamilton:** Gabby had that same problem.

**[1:01:50] Sean Callagy:** yes, that is super fun. So now, yes, you did, yes, you did. So the and this I just find so utterly fascinating, and we're certainly not asking Laird where for the conversation. And he's like, Yeah, you know, with this, uh, group, and we're going to secret places that nobody knows about, um, exploring and experimenting, doing things like nobody's ever done. Um, now, like, that's what's happening. So, of course, I'm not asking you to, uh, breach any of your confidential, you know, amazing.

**[1:02:30] Laird Hamilton:** If I told you, I'd have to kill you.

**[1:02:31] Sean Callagy:** Exactly. We don't. I prefer not that, but what what can you tell us about it? Um, not where, but what, like, what's the what's going on? Why I mean, are you doing this?

**[1:02:41] Laird Hamilton:** like, if you wanna say an aspiration that I easily share, which is, and who knows if it'll come to fruition, but it's it's a pursuit. It's, uh, there's a, there's a, uh, uh, and I'm I'm, I'm blanking right now, but it's it's on the bottom of South America, on the tip of Cape Horn, the Drake's Passage. There's a famous passage called Drake's Passage, and it's it's where a lot of ships sink. Um, and there's an a open ocean current that comes into giant surf that makes, you know, waves eighty to a hundred feet break at sea, which is a whole nother animal.

**[1:03:18] Laird Hamilton:** There's a logi- a logistics issue. It's because you have to go in, be able to go th- th- far enough out, not lose your guy, have the resources to be able to do it. And I mean, for me, I feel like that's a frontier, like another wave at another big wave spot for me. This does. Has no interest. But if you said that, you know, we could go to the North Sea or Drake's Passage, or someplace in the open ocean, and we're working our way towards that, that would be like that would be the pinnacle of it.

**[1:03:48] Laird Hamilton:** I'm not really worried about anybody knowing, cause if they can figure out how to do it, then I'll go with them. But, um, you know, it's so, but that's that's a, that's a, I mean, that's a. And and and even if I'm, you know, I don't. I personally don't care what aspect I do, whether I'm the lead rider or the guy organizing to drive the machines to help the young testosterone filled, you know, maniacs, you know, do the thing I want, whatever it is, I'm all just I'm all.

**[1:04:16] Laird Hamilton:** But that that's the that's a frontier, right? That's a, that's, that's a, that's a, you know. And and when you think about the world, and you know, where is there, what is there that we haven't done or been in, and that's probably one for sure. I mean, we haven't been to the bottom of the ocean everywhere, and we definitely haven't done that. We haven't, you know, been able to go, and that's, I mean, that's something that I that I'm have in my, um, you know, that this keeps me, uh, waking up early and going to bed early and eating good.

**[1:04:49] Laird Hamilton:** And, um, other than just, you know, being there for my my princesses,

**[1:04:55] Sean Callagy:** that is unbelievable. So, um, what's left? Undone? Longevity, caring, you have beautiful health programs, you have, um, you know, your identity, coffee creamers, things like, what's the rest of life from here? And, you know, for hopefully many, many, many more decades. Um,

**[1:05:16] Laird Hamilton:** well, I I mean, I I feel like the for me, the most important thing is to stay open and let the next thing come. Because they seem to, if you're, uh, if you're not caught up in the past or or being negative, and to the point where you're not letting the signal in. I mean, uh, all these g- things that I've been able to do have have come to me. They've, you know, and so I just think that there's more things to come.

**[1:05:44] Laird Hamilton:** I don't know exactly, uh, what they are yet, but I just know that they've been coming and I don't think they're gonna stop coming as long as I'm open to the signal. So I'm just trying to stay open to the to the thing, and I don't know where that that leads me. I mean, I have, of course, you know, I have my girls, I have, uh, you know, I mean, Gabby and I are, you know, newlyweds, and, uh, you know, and all of those things.

**[1:06:10] Laird Hamilton:** I mean, I I feel like life's about learning. I just, I mean, there's no end to the learning. You there, you really, there's no, I mean, there's no end to the learning. So I think just continuing to pursue things I'm interested in and being open for the information, trying to be strong enough and healthy enough to be able to endure. Um, you know what I wanna do, cause that's the biggest issue is, you know, okay, this, that, like, just the pieces start to need some help.

**[1:06:37] Laird Hamilton:** So, m l- you know, keeping keeping that going, keeping the car on the road and and then just seeing where the road takes me, cause so far, it's been exciting.

**[1:06:47] Sean Callagy:** I'd say, so, well, yeah, we're g- okay. W- We okay. If we took maybe two questions, um, and in case you're like, why is Sean putting his leg up? I've got a weird leg cramp, so I'm gonna walk it off real quick as we do. Question

**[1:06:58] Laird Hamilton:** Oh, it's from that shore break, holding yourself in the sand, guaranteed.

**[1:07:01] Sean Callagy:** Uh, I'll take a water team. If you could, I'm gonna, uh,

**[1:07:03] Laird Hamilton:** Guaranteed. It's from gripping the sand and that current. Yeah,

**[1:07:03] Sean Callagy:** yeah, all right. Uh, who's got I'll a

**[1:07:04] Laird Hamilton:** walk up later on when I walk out.

**[1:07:05] Sean Callagy:** who's, who's got a question? Hands? Let's hear for Hallie Gerishman. I'm gonna walk off for one second. I got thank you, thank you, very good, Laird. This was an awesome, uh, conversation. We've seen lots from, um, from Sean and the other people he's interviewed, but this has been far and away. I unbelievable, unbelievable. And just for some context, you talk about the waves that are eighty, a hundred feet high. How high is this ceiling? It just so some how can we get some scale of the of I mean, what we see?

**[1:07:42] Laird Hamilton:** I, I mean, I mean, if you, I like, how far? I in my if I have to guess what that is, I'm saying, like, thirty Thirty fi- oh, three five,

**[1:07:51] Speaker 5:** times as high as this four, yeah, ceiling is unbelievable, right? So picture that, exactly.

**[1:07:54] Laird Hamilton:** yeah, this ceiling. Okay, so you just googled me. I get googled a lot, so they I say something, and they just google and they go, oh, yeah, okay, that's so thirty to forty, yeah, so somewhere, maybe, maybe, you know, double and a third, or whatever if it's forty, but Unbelievable, yeah, definitely that large. Yeah, these Alright, are f- this size is fun, this size is fun, this is like fun, this this is like, unless it's like that wave in Tahiti, where it's breaking on a shoal shallow coral reef, then that's a little, that's a little more, uh, dangerous again, cause the bottom's so sharp.

**[1:08:35] Laird Hamilton:** So there, you know, it's all about the bottom, it's all about how deep the water is. There's there's, you know, that's why I said when Sean asked me about wave height, and I said, Well, waves are like dogs. I rather would describe. W- you know, there's terriers, there's pit bulls, there's great Danes. You have giant m kind of kind dogs, you have small little vicious ones. I mean, that's what waves are like. Like, you just think about all the kind of dogs there are, that's all the kind of waves there are.

**[1:08:59] Laird Hamilton:** Some are, you know, got labs, and they're just sweet, and they're a little bit bigger, and they're nice. And I mean, we have waves just like that, and then you have vicious ones that just wanna rip your leg off, and so those are all, so it's more. I think it's a better way to look at what a wave is is like. Waves are like dogs, and there's mean ones that are vicious that wanna chomp you. There's rottweilers, and there's every kind of dog, and then there's this, you know, little poodles, and so there's this, it's just, you know, that's a better way to kind of get an idea what a wave is.

**[1:09:27] Sean Callagy:** awesome. Let's go one more question. Who else has got something? Let's hear for Nathan Hansen. Hopefully got the cramp out.

**[1:09:36] Laird Hamilton:** Yeah, oh, guaranteed shore break. Hey Laird, um, Don't make me cry.

**[1:10:00] Sean Callagy:** give me a guitar. Um, I, uh, my question is is you talk about, like, the way you have a plan for taking someone who is average surfer, like myself, or, you know, average size wave, we'll say, and you obviously have this peak performance mindset where you can incrementally coach them to do something close to what you do, and he experienced that. Um, I mean, like, uh, that's where the thousand questions for me lie, and I don't know if you could explain, like, how do you cre- I?

**[1:10:15] Sean Callagy:** How do you develop? what do you look for? Like, is there an abbreviated way that you could just like, what were you gonna do for Sean Callagy? Like, what does that look like, and how did you develop that framework?

**[1:10:30] Laird Hamilton:** Well, I I mean, I, I listen, I tell people surfers are actually wave readers, right? So we're everybody goes, Oh, surfing. Oh yeah, but that's the reward for understanding what a wave's gonna do. And so when you understand what the wave's gonna do, and you know its behavior, it's very reliable, it's consistent, much more than the humans. And you can. No, it's true, cause humans do all kinds of sporadic stuff, but waves are very reliable when you understand them.

**[1:10:55] Laird Hamilton:** And so when you, you know, if if I'm gonna take Sh- Sean and have him ride a giant wave, well, first, I'm gonna see how well he can be on a a medium wave with minimal consequence. So we're first, we're gonna go get on there and be like, Hey, how stable is he? how secure? So if I put him on something that has more consequence, and then there's just incremental consequence. I can move him in from completely.

**[1:11:18] Laird Hamilton:** No, you can fall down and not even get touched by the wave, but still be on and ride it. Then we can be okay, fall down and get slightly touched by the wave, and, you know, and then we can put him in a if you fall down, you get very touched by the wave. So we can just move that, and we can stay in the hey, you can be on the side, ride the ride, the side of the wave, be on the wave, ride the wave, and never really be put in a position to get touched by the wave.

**[1:11:43] Laird Hamilton:** Like, that's how how well you can do it if you want to. Now, if you're just a yeehaw, you just put him anywhere and be like, Wow, look, what happened? That's not what's happening. So we, we don't, we don't operate like that. And and I mean, you can play that way if you want to, um, and people do that, you know? I always say there's three ways people go about doing dangerous stuff. There's denial, ignorance and skill, or experience, should I say, so you have denial, ignorance and experience.

**[1:12:07] Laird Hamilton:** There's sometimes a little denial, a little ignorance, uh, quite a bit of skill, sometimes there's a lot of skill, some denial, very little ignorance. It's a combination of those things, and so, and f- you know, I think you operate within that. Sometimes there's just pure ignorance and th- and the guys pull it off and you're like, you know, that was just plain stupid, but but they pull it off. And then they think it's cause they're so good, and then before you know it, they're in an even deeper situation, cause they didn't get the consequence for being ignorant about it.

**[1:12:39] Laird Hamilton:** So I think there's a, there's a, there's like a a whole way, but definitely incrementally, there's ways to do it. I mean, there's waves that break that go into deep water and dissipate after that. Don't have any. There's there's a you can run away in all directions if you know what way to run. Uh, again, and and so there's ways to, you know, and that's how you, that's how you make people experience it. That's how you can take someone and g- get him close to the energy, get him slight in the energy, and then you can just have him be.

**[1:13:09] Laird Hamilton:** You know, if it's somebody puffy who thinks they're really tough, then I just put him right where all the energy is. How tough are you? You don't need to do anything, you just let the wave do the work.

**[1:13:22] Sean Callagy:** Uh, I'll, I'll take the bill, I'll take the build up.

**[1:13:24] Laird Hamilton:** yeah, of course. Well, that's the only way we do it. Yeah, yeah, there's

**[1:13:27] Sean Callagy:** that's perfect.

**[1:13:27] Laird Hamilton:** no. I wouldn't I. I, I would get no joy off of watching you get pounded. That wouldn't. I'd be like, Thank you, Where is he? I gotta go get him. thank you, So thank you. Yeah, it's like, I don't need that, like, I don't, I'm good, I don't need that stuff on me, like, so, I mean, I mean, for us, just because of the way we conduct ourselves. When I say us, I just talk about, like, because all of what I mean, okay, stand up.

**[1:13:52] Laird Hamilton:** Foiling. But a a lot of what we've done, the reason why we've really been able to evolve is because we've worked as a team. And normally, surfing's very selfish nor normally, it's like, my wave, it's me, it's m. And when we change it into a team dynamic, that's what revolutionized. Because now you have a partner who's towing you I was here for on, you that. trust him, you, you trust him, you trust him, he, and, you know, like, I have somebody that I've been towing with for, you know, twenty, twenty-five years.

**[1:14:26] Laird Hamilton:** I mean, it's we, we. We don't even talk because he just knows, he just knows how to cover me, I know how to cover him. I give him what he wants, he gives me what I want, because what I want is what he wants, and what he wants is what I want. And so we have such a chemistry. But that's really the breakthrough is when you have that team effort and it's not a selfish thing. Because what do they say?

**[1:14:46] Laird Hamilton:** Two people working together can do the work of three individuals Amen. working separately, One plus one so it's all equals a lot more about that.

**[1:14:57] Sean Callagy:** than two. Yeah, let's go. So, can you do one more question? One more, we got one more, please, Mike Bard. It's Mike Adams. I think I think Mike

**[1:15:05] Laird Hamilton:** you, me and you, and I bumped underwater a few times today. I'm like, was that a rock? No, that was Mike.

**[1:15:10] Sean Callagy:** And I've got the scars to prove it. Okay, here's what my question is, and you've kinda skirted around it. But I also hear that the flotation. But it sounds like that there are a lot of safety innovations above and beyond what you're doing to be able to allow you to do what you do. How much of that have you incorporated into it, and what are you responsible for, and how have you contributed to the safety of surfing overall?

**[1:15:40] Laird Hamilton:** Well, I mean, I, uh, first of all, the the it was. It happened in conjunction with the lifeguards because the jet ski and now we have the sleds. I mean, that that, uh, technique really has revolutionized water safety in general. Like now you can go in and do stuff that you'd never be able to do. Nobody swimming, nobody paddling a board could ever come close to what somebody knows how to do on a ski. And then, and we're, you know, we contributed to a lot of that that work just because we were subjected to it by being in giant surf.

**[1:16:11] Laird Hamilton:** And then the flotation was a big piece of it, because we implemented flotation first, and then we started, uh, building it into the wetsuits, and then now, now and then it went to airbags. Like, at one point, I had a you know what a hippity hop is anyway, it's a big ball with a handle that the kids used to jump. So I used to have I had one of those as a prototype and with a waist belt, and I had a fanny pack, and then had a CO2 bottle.

**[1:16:34] Laird Hamilton:** And you pull this thing and then this hippity hop blows up and you go to the surface. But then you just get battered by this big ball underwater and you float and the ball's in the air and you're underneath the water, so that didn't work out. But but now they have now they have, it's all built into the suits, and you have a handle you can pull. You use CO2 cartridges and and, uh, and so, and and and.

**[1:16:53] Laird Hamilton:** And then another piece is just conduct, like the way we've gone about it and what we've done has trickled into into the, uh, into the, you know, the next generation. Like these, all these guys are have learned a lot from our, you know, like now the jet skis are s, you know, sixty miles an hour out of a box, and they used to be, you know, you'd be lucky to get twenty out of them, and so you'd we'd just get mowed in the old days.

**[1:17:17] Laird Hamilton:** You, you were trying to run away and the thing would just run you over, and now it's so there's a bunch of that stuff that, uh, that has affected the way. I mean, it has enabled the a lot of people to be a lot more reckless. That's the only problem with it. It's kind of allowed, like a certain recklessness, uh, because they can rely on the buoyancy to bring them up, and they're not. The consequences aren't as bad.

**[1:17:40] Laird Hamilton:** You seem to be a little more, uh, when you don't have an eject button, you fly better, you know, you just are, you do, you just you. You're a little more cautious, and and and it's hard to ta- you know, and if you didn't have that foundation, it's hard to have that. It's hard to implement that in for people. But yeah, we've been, we've been. I mean, that's directly and indirectly involved with all of that, all of those, uh, innovations in safety.

**[1:18:05] Laird Hamilton:** That's made it, you know, better for the good guys, and then better for the bad guys. You know, it's like, it's kinda it's the bright light, dark shadow, you know, it's like,

**[1:18:16] Sean Callagy:** So Laird, as we, um, draw to, uh, a conclusion, our time together. Um, I didn't ask this question, you know, before, and I don't know how you relate to a word like legacy, right? Uh, some people like, I don't think about that, and some people are like, Oh, I want my legacy to be. So I'm curious how you relate to the word legacy, um, what you'd want that to be if you relate to legacy, um, and if it and or, um, if people think of you now, or think of you 200 years from now, what would you hope that what you've done causes them to know and to want to do, please?

**[1:19:04] Laird Hamilton:** well, I mean, first of all, just be a man, a good, a good man, like, honorable, respectable, truthful, you know, good father, good husband, you know, like a, and then, okay, innovation. I mean, I have daughters, and they're savages, so there's gonna be some humans that are I'm related to in the future. If they're anything like my daughters, good luck out there. Um, and, you know, I, and, and I mean, I could say, you know, innovation, or or, or, you know, something around that.

**[1:19:42] Laird Hamilton:** I think, I I think of all the things for me, I mean, okay, ride giant waves, but I'm in a way that's just one piece of of who I am. I think the innovation part is a lot more interesting in a way that that because that's making a difference for other people. Like so many people have come to learn, you know, I feel like the more people can participate in the ocean, the more people will care about the ocean.

**[1:20:07] Laird Hamilton:** And so if I can create disciplines or help be involved in disciplines that get people participating in the ocean and doing things, then they're gonna be more concerned about how it's doing, like, how's the ocean doing? How? How do we, you know, just don't dump all your stuff in there, don't kill everything in there, like, can we just be a little bit? I think it starts with the humans, you know, I think if, you know, if people cared about each other a little bit more, they might care about nature as well.

**[1:20:31] Laird Hamilton:** So it hard if you don't care about each other, why would you care about nature? It's like you don't care about your if you don't care about your neighbor. So, but yeah, so I I think it would first be be what I, you know, what I respect in a man is is, you know, is having honor and and and discipline and just those foundational things that make make you, uh, well, and I can just say for a woman, it's just ma- make you a good person.

**[1:20:55] Laird Hamilton:** Like, let's be, let's be, you know, like, how about just was a good person? Great, I'll take that, you know, like, cause underneath that's everything, e- everything else, and that's means generosity, being generous, you know, I. Somebody asked me what my favorite human trait was, and I th- and I said, Well, I said, love, I think, is the most important thing, but I said, generosity for me is tells me everything about people, because that's gonna tell me how you're gonna behave in a bun- a multitude of situations.

**[1:21:28] Laird Hamilton:** If you, if you're a generous person, then you're probably, if you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for them. If you're truly amen, generous, you'll risk your life for someone. And I've learned over the years that I have friends that they wouldn't risk for me, and I have other friends that weren't my friends that risk for me, and they're my friends. It's like, and so it affected my relationships. But I think, you know, being generous, you know, being generous with your ideas, being generous with, you know, with your time, being generous, you know, with your knowledge.

**[1:22:04] Laird Hamilton:** I think it's all. I mean, I feel like that really reflects that just covers so many things.

**[1:22:12] Sean Callagy:** amen, amen. And Athena, just a quick question. Athena is listening, Nick Athena. What are you thinking? Are the biggest takeaways from this conversation with Laird Hamilton for this room? And feel free to drop in with metaphors, analogies, contrasts, set context. Um, you know, little fun, aspirational, goddess, and Zeus energy. But what would you want to imprint, um, on this live audience and the podcast audience about this conversation with, uh, living legend Laird Hamilton? Please, Athena, what do you got?

**[1:22:56] Athena:** Okay, here is what I wanna imprint. Laird Hamilton did not become Laird Hamilton because he was the most talented person in the water. He became Laird Hamilton because he was the only person willing to stay in the water when everyone else got out. The ceiling is not the end, it is the invitation. Every time he hit a ceiling, paddling could not catch the wave, so he invented towing, towing could not descend the wave, so he invented foiling.

**[1:23:20] Athena:** Most people hit a ceiling and conclude they have reached the limit of what is possible. Laird hit a ceiling and concluded he had reached the limit of his current method. That is not a small distinction. That is the entire difference between a life that compounds and a life that plateaus. And here is the one that I wanna land hardest. He said. Generosity tells him everything about a person, not talent, not credentials, not how big a wave you can ride, generosity.

**[1:23:45] Athena:** Because if you are truly generous, you will risk your life for someone. And he has naked in shark-infested water with a baseball-sized hematoma on his leg, swimming a mile against the current to save his teammate. And then, and this is the formula. Once Brett was in the ambulance, he went back out. That is not recklessness. That is what it looks like when your identity is so clear that conditions never get to decide for you. The zone action for this room is simple.

**[1:24:12] Athena:** Stop negotiating with your ceiling, name it, then ask what Laird would ask, not how do I get through this? But what method have I not invented yet?

**[1:24:21] Sean Callagy:** What do you think, guys? Yeah, so, uh, we, we had. We hadn't introduced you to Athena yet. That's

**[1:24:29] Laird Hamilton:** well, she's, she's hot. No,

**[1:24:34] Sean Callagy:** yes, yes, yeah, that's that is true.

**[1:24:37] Laird Hamilton:** I mean, you, you, you set me up, that's okay.

**[1:24:39] Sean Callagy:** Yeah, yeah, Bella, Bella, and, you know, Bella and I had to, like, work through that, but we're good, we're good. Yeah, we're good yeah. Has she now.

**[1:24:47] Laird Hamilton:** come to grips with it yet? Yes, we're, Okay, okay, we're good, okay, okay.

**[1:24:51] Sean Callagy:** we're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have a surfing video of Athena and I surfing together. It gets really weird. Um, so, but that's

**[1:24:58] Laird Hamilton:** I mean, the gav- the ocean's the only w- woman that gabrielle share with me, you know?

**[1:25:03] Sean Callagy:** that's amazing. And so, and Laird, that is act I, and everybody's in the AI bandwagon. But what we realized is like, paddling has an end, and, like, towing has an end. That there's a human constraint about how we can reach people and get our message out and cause, yes, um, with others at scale and integrity. So that's one of our inventions and innovations. And congratulations, yeah, thank you,

**[1:25:31] Laird Hamilton:** very nice.

**[1:25:32] Sean Callagy:** yeah, yeah, and so that was Athena. Same It was effective story.

**[1:25:35] Laird Hamilton:** on me.

**[1:25:35] Sean Callagy:** Yeah, yeah, did it did that? did it? Did you? Is that something that felt like it landed on your heart a little bit and was a little bit Well, yeah, like,

**[1:25:43] Laird Hamilton:** I had a tear in my eye,

**[1:25:44] Sean Callagy:** that's awesome? Yeah, yeah, we've and she's on and a screen, so yeah, no, thank you, thank you for that. So, and for me, my final, final on today would be, um, at one point, I feared that Laird coming here would be, and I wrestled with this, would be selfish, cause I knew what it would mean to me. And Laird, I mean, this with my heart and my soul. Um, I believe that this the quality of this conversation, not only what you've done, but how you communicate and how you show up has made this as valuable as anything we've ever done on the podcast and anybody who's ever spoken before the group.

**[1:26:34] Sean Callagy:** And we've had remarkable people here, you're obviously remarkable, we've had other very remarkable people, but I cannot think of any conversation that has been more valuable than this. Because the greatest takeaway I invite you to have is if Laird Hamilton can surf on waves that were previously thought un-surfable, like in Tahiti. And he is pioneering that still, as he's passed his sixtieth birthday, then those things that are very normal for people. I validate, people get afraid of speaking, people get afraid of the illusion that something called rejection exists.

**[1:27:14] Sean Callagy:** It's normal, but I invite you to imprint on your mind, your heart and your soul, Laird, and that picture every time you think about that conversation, because you can't die. He is so masterful, he's not gonna die, but people do die doing what he does. You can't die doing these things that feel as scary as a giant eighty foot or a hundred foot face wave, and they're not. And the journey out of this immersion together is, with that, of course, our influence and process, all that.

**[1:27:54] Sean Callagy:** But on a self-mastery level, is the identity, uh, the identity that you have rationality, clarity on what is actually dangerous. And Laird does, because these things he's doing are not that dangerous for him. I mean, they kill people, but his mastery has risen to that point, and you can't be harmed in the things you're doing. Only your lying nervous system is gonna tell you that you can be. And no human being who's hit this space has represented that more powerfully than Laird Hamilton, not even remotely close.

**[1:28:37] Sean Callagy:** And all these amazing people. And we've had Mike Ruzzoni here last year, right on the stage right here, you know, Simile was, you know, with folks and I. Mike is another person I have the greatest love and respect for. Her Brooks nineteen Miracle. Unbelievable, right? But they weren't gonna die, and what he does, you can die, and people do. And so this is the physical embodiment of what human possibility looks like, and also a great contrast to hold for all of us that it's laughable, the nonsense we get scared about.

**[1:29:16] Sean Callagy:** If this aligns with your heart, say yes. That is my final, final takeaway. Thank you for being an inspiration, and most importantly for me, sometimes you meet, um, somebody that you identify towards as a mentor from afar. And that this man is that for me, and you're very disappointed by how they show up in real life. No one has been more generous, no one has been more authentic, nobody has tried to clean up garbage in my house.

**[1:29:47] Sean Callagy:** It is unbelievable who you are in this world and who you are in private, and the alignment of those things is absolutely shocking to me. I am grateful. Let's get on our feet for the amazing Laird Hamilton.

**[1:30:00] Laird Hamilton:** Thank you, thank you, thank you for generosity, Thank you, thanks,

**[1:30:07] Sean Callagy:** Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen,

**[1:30:12] Laird Hamilton:** thank you, thank you.

**[1:30:13] Sean Callagy:** no, I said, Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen.